Next Test: E85 flex fuel vehicle via fuel trimming

[turboglenn]

So the next thing i'm wanting to test is how feasible it is to run e85 when you can get it and regular gas when you can't only by trimming the "global fuel" or switching maps if nessessary.

My questions are this ...and yes, i searched, but kept finding conflicting info, and not everything i need to know...and before some one jumps in and says "you need 1000000cc injectors and 5 1000LPH pumps, THIS IS NOT a quest for horsepower (yet) it is a test of feasability and how well i can get the car to run on a small e85 setup before going to a larger one should i like it... I am more interested in a DIY FFV than a straight E85 car, as i like the mieage of pump gas, and the power potential of e85, but am a bit reserved about it due to lack of availability and cold weather performance (starting mainly..remember daily driver, must start to get to work on time)

1.) Can the current fuel system (stock everything except with a wally 255hp and 720cc injectors and AFPR) Will it safely contain and flow the E85 without corroding or sprouting leaks? WHAT are teh differences in injectors if any, and how well will the stock lines and fittings resist the petrol blend ( i figure it shouldn't be as bad as straight alcohol since there's petrolium for lubrication, just in small amounts, and REMEMBER i'll be running gas every couple tanks anyway, can this help prolong the life of the parts that would suffer from alcohol exposure???)

2.) i KNOW 720's are too small for large HP on e85, but roughly how much can they support, even if i had to float into 100% IDC i wouldn't mind that much, it's such short periods and such a friendly fuel i'll risk it for the tests if it's some what fdeasible for HP putput (as long as it's 350hp or above, i'll try this)

3.) See # 1, how long will my stock fuel system last if it will work?? this is a big one for me, reliability is always my goal.

4.)What would be the rough afr for wide open throttle operation as read in lambda on the AEM guage??? I've read 9.7:1 is stoich and that equals 1.087 lambda (correct????) So i would guess somewhere about 5 or 6:1'ish being a lambda value of 0.683 for 6:1 (the lowest the AEM will read)

What i'm hoping to achieve with this is a daily E85 tune for whomping on the streets while being able to switch maps and hit up some good ol 91 octane for road trips and winter. I don't want to build a fuel system around E85 until i've tested it thoroughly and am sure i want to run it...this test will determine that and some other things of interest to me. AS usual all result swill be logged and posted this time as well

EDIT: I should mention that timing maps will stay the same with lower boost being the factor between the 2 fuels, i will jsut run lower boost and decent safe timing (20psi and 16-19* timing) on pump gas, then on e85 turning up the boost to where ever the injectors will flow to.

[JrCRXHF]

I have been running my turbo honda like this for 5 years now.

All i did is run Walbro 255 pump with Greddy 720cc injectors.
Hondata Ecu (obd0 car) I tuned with lambda so i would not have a problem with the different air fuel ratio's based on fuel. Because in the winter it is E70. The down side of my system is that i have 2 different Roms on two different chips so when i switch i have to pull the ECU and change the chips out. So the car just runs E85 most of the time.

By the way E85 is really E83.5 because they mix gas in at the ethanol plant.

I am converting my DSM right now to run it.

Aem EMS
Speed density
Aem Wide band with Serial gauge
Aem Boost
FIC 1050cc injectors
Walrbo 255
Aero FPR

This is going to be done on a stock 6 bolt car with 210,000 miles on it.

I would change your fuel filter a couple times when you switch to E85 just in case you free up some junk in the tank.

The fuel lines will be fine if the car is from 1988 or newer because they have to be able to stand the 10% ethanol that is in most all pump gas.

[2gGSX]

Some feedback--

Originally Posted by turboglenn

I am more interested in a DIY FFV than a straight E85 car, as i like the mieage of pump gas, and the power potential of e85, but am a bit reserved about it due to lack of availability and cold weather performance (starting mainly..remember daily driver, must start to get to work on time)

While it's probably colder up there, I had no problem starting in 10-20 degree air temps that we sporadically had here last month running straight E70. A couple of times were really difficult though.

Originally Posted by turboglenn

1.) Can the current fuel system (stock everything except with a wally 255hp and 720cc injectors and AFPR) Will it safely contain and flow the E85 without corroding or sprouting leaks? WHAT are teh differences in injectors if any, and how well will the stock lines and fittings resist the petrol blend ( i figure it shouldn't be as bad as straight alcohol since there's petrolium for lubrication, just in small amounts, and REMEMBER i'll be running gas every couple tanks anyway, can this help prolong the life of the parts that would suffer from alcohol exposure???)

Prolonged exposure to high concentrations of ethanol will eventually corrode basically everything in the fuel system (iron, steel, aluminum even, and definitely rubber). The key words are "high" and "eventually".

Originally Posted by turboglenn

2.) i KNOW 720's are too small for large HP on e85, but roughly how much can they support, even if i had to float into 100% IDC i wouldn't mind that much, it's such short periods and such a friendly fuel i'll risk it for the tests if it's some what fdeasible for HP putput (as long as it's 350hp or above, i'll try this)

My own data is showing that I need roughly 20-25% more fuel on E70 than pump gas to maintain the same AFR. Hopefully others will be able to chime in and see if any of this correlates. With the 25% number though, you should be able to support roughly 38 lbs/min of airflow at 11.5:1 AFR and 90% IDC--so roughly 330-350 whp would be my guess.

Originally Posted by turboglenn

3.) See # 1, how long will my stock fuel system last if it will work?? this is a big one for me, reliability is always my goal.

This was a consideration for me as well. Brazil has been pushing for the use of ethanol for years, since the 1980s (Publications). I guarantee you that not all those cars are "flex fuel vehicles" either. It's speculation, but the people probably wouldn't keep using the ethanol if it destroyed all their cars.

Originally Posted by turboglenn

4.)What would be the rough afr for wide open throttle operation as read in lambda on the AEM guage??? I've read 9.7:1 is stoich and that equals 1.087 lambda (correct????) So i would guess somewhere about 5 or 6:1'ish being a lambda value of 0.683 for 6:1 (the lowest the AEM will read)

Switch it back to the gas output and just tune like normal. I run 11.5:1, although a lot of other people like to go really lean.

[bastard dsm]

dont worry about the 9.0 a/f's you read about usung e85. a wide band dosnt care what fuel your using
so tune to 11.5-12.5 a/f's like its reagular 93 oct.i have been running it for a while now and havnt had anny issues.stock fuel lines 2g fuel rail and reg with 255 intank and 750's.if i do use 93 i change the injecter trims on the maft at the pump and the car runs just the same.if i go back to e85 it takes 5 sec
to change the trims back.im maxed out 105% injector duty cycle at 11.5 a/f on the 750's,remember im on the stock reg and its not a 1-1 aeromotive.

[Black_Bullet]

Has anyone done any dyno tuning with AFR with E85.
Im sure the e85 sweet spot is different from that of pump gas or c16 or other.

What ratios seem to offer the best results for power production, or crusing.
Do you still cruise at 14.7, or can you go leaner for better gas milage?
Since e85 has good knock control characteristics why not cruise around super lean to make up
for the lose in gas milage? Will that work, is that reasonable if there isnt any knock?
Or do you need to purposely tune a little richer to have enough energy in the fuel content for acceleration?

I know those questions have a lot of variables since everyones car/ setup / tunes etc. are different.
But it'll still give some direction to someone just starting out with e85.

I dont have access to the stuff yet unfortunantly or id be all over it.
But ive heard it smells like french fries out the exhaust? lol

[turboglenn]

Originally Posted by Black_Bullet

Has anyone done any dyno tuning with AFR with E85.
Im sure the e85 sweet spot is different from that of pump gas or c16 or other.

What ratios seem to offer the best results for power production, or crusing.
Do you still cruise at 14.7, or can you go leaner for better gas milage?
Since e85 has good knock control characteristics why not cruise around super lean to make up
for the lose in gas milage? Will that work, is that reasonable if there isnt any knock?
Or do you need to purposely tune a little richer to have enough energy in the fuel content for acceleration?

I know those questions have a lot of variables since everyones car/ setup / tunes etc. are different.
But it'll still give some direction to someone just starting out with e85.

I dont have access to the stuff yet unfortunantly or id be all over it.
But ive heard it smells like french fries out the exhaust? lol

I tuned an E85 car today (Ajax is his screen name on here) I was studying lambda vs. AFR on ethanol and gasoline, and it's funny that you really don't have to figure anything out. The guage makes it AFR reading from the lambda value and 1.0 being stoigh (roughly) it equalls 14:1 on gas and 9.x:1 on ethanol.. so if it reads 11:1 that is actually 6.91:1 on ethanol.. andboth have teh same lambda value of 1.0 volts.

So basically when referencing the values from lambda

the numbers on the guage correlate to ethanol AFR like this, when reading the gas values they still correlate to the correct values on ethanol

The reading from the wideband go like this
Gas @ 14:7 = is the same as ethanol at 9.02:1
Gas @ 11:1 = is the same ethanol at 6:1

So these 2 fuel's afr values line up with their lambda values to where you can tune to the "gas values" AND BE STILL ON WHERE YOU need to be for ethanol...learn something new everyday

[2gGSX]

"Switch it back to the gas output and just tune like normal. I run 11.5:1, although a lot of other people like to go really lean."

[turboglenn]

It wasn't my car, it was his wideband and was set to lambda, so i utilized and learned lambda in a day of tuning. Really simple actually!

We took the car from bucking, spitting and missfiring (and hardly making any power) to spinning the front wheels as soon as boost hit in third gear this afternoon.. The corn juice is good!!!! Definately makes me more apt to doing it myself if i can get good starts out of it and decent milage. We saw 22mpg on the highway while tuning his car today, that's not bad for constantly ripping on it pulling logs and adjusting maps!

[JeffGST]

I tune my Talon with 12.0 AFR's (Gasoline Wideband) on E85. Although I have gone as lean as 13.5 to 1 on E85 before it actually misfired. 12.0 AFR's are very safe on E85 and the timing that you can run is insane.

I am currently at 12.3 AFR's and I cannot go any richer because my 1600cc injectors are already at 100%. The only thing I can do is raise base fuel pressure, but the 2 fuel pumps are already having a hard time keeping up.

Treat the 720's as if they were only 580cc injectors. They won't be able to flow much more than 30-35lbs/min worth of airflow. 350WHP would be the limit on E85. I have tons of datalogs with 1600's injectors, so if you have 720's installed when I am at 45-48% duty cycle you would be at 100% IDC. When I look at the logs, I am at 48% IDC at only 15 PSI with my T67 turbo. That's 33lbs/min airflow.

If you can live with 300WHP then be happy with the 720's. I was barely past 5000 RPM and already at 50% IDC.

[gsxtasy]

Originally Posted by JeffGST

I tune my Talon with 12.0 AFR's (Gasoline Wideband) on E85. Although I have gone as lean as 13.5 to 1 on E85 before it actually misfired. 12.0 AFR's are very safe on E85 and the timing that you can run is insane.

I am currently at 12.3 AFR's and I cannot go any richer because my 1600cc injectors are already at 100%. The only thing I can do is raise base fuel pressure, but the 2 fuel pumps are already having a hard time keeping up.

Treat the 720's as if they were only 580cc injectors. They won't be able to flow much more than 30-35lbs/min worth of airflow. 350WHP would be the limit on E85. I have tons of datalogs with 1600's injectors, so if you have 720's installed when I am at 45-48% duty cycle you would be at 100% IDC. When I look at the logs, I am at 48% IDC at only 15 PSI with my T67 turbo. That's 33lbs/min airflow.

If you can live with 300WHP then be happy with the 720's. I was barely past 5000 RPM and already at 50% IDC.

Get your boost-a-pump already Jeff.

Glenn I'll have to come up sometime and we can play some more with mine, it's on e85. Then you can see how you like it from there and so on.

[JeffGST]

Here is a pic of what my AFR's looked like on the dyno. RIDICULOUSLY LEAN, and no knock and just a trace of misfires. There was no way I was going to leave the tune like that, but at that time a year back, I didn't have the fuel system I have now.

Remember this is Ethanol and using a Gasoline Wideband.

[Ceddy]

MegaSquirt allows you to use a Flex Fuel Sensor that determines ethanol percentage and fuel temperature and automatically adjusts fuel settings.

Flex Fuel with MegaSquirt

[Ajax]

Flex fuel sensor only works with the MS-II not the MS-1 I am just waiting for Rs-autosport to finish up their new MS-II daughter board for the 420a and I will get it bc not only can you use a FFV sensor but it can also control a Stepper IAC which the MS-I cannot. JeffGST how much horsepower are you pushing??? (according to a E-85 calculator flow rate for 750 horsepower is 160.7lbs/hr) I was hoping that I would never have to worry about maxing out my injectors(1660cc) but now you got me worried! Yeah me and TurboGlenn had a great time tuning but we did have an issue with my EBC not wanting to go to the set boost but thats a different story.

[turboglenn]

Okay, i think I'm going to give E85 even more of a chance than i was thinking, But i still intend on it being a "Flex Fuel Vehicle" or i won't do it at all. I'm going to either use one of the inputs that will allow for a fuel enrichment, or trick one of the temp sensors (most likely IAT) to increase the fuel with a simple bypass switch that would put the air temps to one extreme end of the map where i can dial in the extra fuel without it effecting daily performance when on pump gas (as long as the temps really never hit -40* F This should work just fine. This is a sensor that once you're running injectors larger than 660's that you really don't use. ( at least i don't ) Because on larger injectors if you have the air temp sensor making a 1-2* change for a certain temp it will effect cruising and idling much more because that one percent is a larger chunk of pulse width than it is when taken out of the scale you see when WOT (Tip i got from Sean glazier years ago, and no matter how much i try to make it useful on large injectors, i always find it best to just "zero it out"...(on a side note, I've had some luck with adding a few % at temps below 15* F, but i can do this same small addition through my fuel trimming knob)

Some may ask why i don't just use the fuel trim knob since it can do the amount of fuel that i would need.. My simple answer is , if i trick a sensor or use one of the inputs i will not only gain the extra fuel needed, but I'll have access to modify the timing maps as well Plus it will then leave me room on th trim knob in fine tune setting to be able to adjust for the slight differences in weather or fuel quality (or lately a fluctuating AFPR )

What pump, fuel line and injectors are going to be good for 500whp at the most on e85? My realistic goals are 425 daily with potential for just a tad over 450 if i really push it (at the wheels of course ) ON the pump & injectors i would like specific links to some ones that one of you E85 users has actually ran for a decent amount of time. I can build the AN lines myself

[gsxtasy]

Hey man, as for a fuel system, here's what I'm going to be running sometime in the near future. Dual 255's in tank running parallel into a -8 AN to the rail. That will support 500whp. Other things people have done include, running an external pump of some type and feeding it with a 255 in tank. It's been proven(i think by JeffGST) that running them this way(sequential) will not flow nearly as much as if you run them in parallel. As for injectors, the easy way is 1600's and if 500whp is an actual possibility, i would probably go that way, however 1150's will come close to that if you max them out. This being the better option, in my opinion, for a daily driver.

Here is a list for injector flow rates with e85.
E85 Injector Max lb/min Calculations

Now i know you can't see airflow in lb/min, but it's a general idea. As far as my research has found and people I've asked.(including darkhorse, guy who wrote that link i gave you). A single 255lph hp rewired, can potentially flow around 45 lb/min. Now that's a real rough estimate and should be taken with a grain of salt, and let your logs tell the whole story. We should be able to see what my 255 pump will be able to take shortly, if I get a good tune on this thing.

In short for all out 500whp, get 1600's and dual pumps run in parallel with decent lines. For your application, I say get 1150's. Hope that helps some.

Edit: I guess they figured out fuel pumps in lb/min on that link as well. So that should give an even better idea.

[Black_Bullet]

Id think 1000cc injectors, dual supra denso 260lph pumps and upgraded fuel lines and filters, and a AFPR should do plenty for 500-600whp but maybe im wrong. Im just guessing.
There was another thread on here awhile back and a guy laid down almost 600 with dual 255s and 1000ccs i believe on the corn juice. Most people seem to go to a dual pump setup.


Edit: I just checked that link above, good stuff.
According to the flow list there im good for about 50lb min of air flow on E85 with my current fuel setup
( if the fuel pump can make it that far.)
Thats good to know.

[turboglenn]

Where can i get a dual pump hangar for the twin 255's? and what injector brand? I"m assuming FIC 1150's at this point.

I"m thinking that if i'm going to remap the whole ECU for one methanol test, i might as well go to bigger injectors and only have to map it twice more incase i decide i want to keep it as a FFV permanently,which is looking pretty probably right now. If i map it on my current setup and then change to bigger injetors that will make me have to tune it 4 times instead (well only 1 and 3 mappings really since i have a good pump gas map on my current injectors)