Ridding Knock WO Water Injection

[Chadillac2000]

I recently got my car wideband tuned and believe me im not complaining a good tune is a night and day difference, but we were only able to turn my 16g up to 18 psi instead of my previously planned 22 because we were seeing the timing being pulled up top a little which we suspected was knock. My question is that is there anything else I can do without going water/alchy injection to lower the knock enough to run 22. With the 650's im running, he also said that since i was forced to extract so much fuel that at some points the maf is going to be tricked into seeing less air which could also pull timing or something to that nature which therefore results in less horsepower, just seeing what your guys idea was on this and if there was anything else i could do to get rid of my knock

 

[Burnett03]

tricking the ecu with larger injectors will "add" timing, not take away. Unless the car is knocking. What do you have against water injection? If you dont like the knock get better gas, propane, or water injection, or turn the boost down. Those are you options

 

[Chadillac2000]

Yeah I just didn't want to really spend the money on WI but I guess its about the only option, do i need a dual valve system, or could i just use the single, I'm not looking to run insane numbers, just 21-22 psi daily, ill post a log tomorrow

 

[1990EclipseGSX]

Yeah I just didn't want to really spend the money on WI but I guess its about the only option, do i need a dual valve system, or could i just use the single, I'm not looking to run insane numbers, just 21-22 psi daily, ill post a log tomorrow

I think you would be much better off upgrading to a DSMLink or a Keydiver EPROM. I think your knock is being caused by excessive timing advance. The negative corrections you are giving the MAF are making the ECU bump up your timing curves.
The DSMLink and Keydiver will make the ECU compensate for the larger injectors. This should allow you to remove most if not all of your negative fuel correction on the MAF, resulting in a normal timing curve. This should give you some headroom to turn up the boost.
I think the most inexpensive/beneficial fix would be a custom EPROM chip, and not WI.

Chris

 

[Chadillac2000]

the only problem with that is that I don't have an Eprom ecu and that I would have to spend the money on that plus the cost of the chip would end up exceeding the cost of a simple WI kit, let me post a log sometime today so you guys can see if maybe the WI would hold off the knock enough to let me run 22 daily

 

[demonchild]

why are your o2 readings so flippin lean? Or is that the californian in me talking

 

[Staytuned]

You are only getting 5 samples because you are using second gear. You have to use at least 3rd to get any real data....preferably 4th gear.

And 96 volts is not lean by the way. Most tuners will not take you to the edge of your optimal tune. They leave room for error, changing conditions or a tank of bad gas.

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

Hey, im havin the same problem and its really irritating. I got my car dyno'd w/ the gm maft and had 0 knock at 17 psi but now i have an afc and at 15psi i have knock all over the place and its becoming a nusance. My knock is so sparratic its not even funny. I blow black smoke and it knocks, if i lean the afc through the rpms i get knock. I cant get the damn thing to run right. What are symptoms of a bad knock sensor? And could it be the fact that the fic 650s that i have arent ball type injectors, the just have like 6 pin holes in them?

 

[Chadillac2000]

please dont threadjack, you will get alot more responses if you make your own, but I ran a 3rd gear pull and logged it and here it is, how does it look? I suspect that those little dips in my timing is where im knocking a tad, but everything else looks good, so the question is will a water injection kit get rid of that and allow me to run a couple more pounds without knock

 

[spyderturbo007]

please dont threadjack, you will get alot more responses if you make your own, but I ran a 3rd gear pull and logged it and here it is, how does it look? I suspect that those little dips in my timing is where im knocking a tad, but everything else looks good, so the question is will a water injection kit get rid of that and allow me to run a couple more pounds without knock

Try a 3rd gear pull from about 3k to redline, that will give us a much better idea of what is happening. We need to be able to look at the log at the point where you reach the point of highest VE. Without seeing that, I really can't comment.

As far as ridding yourself of knock...a FMIC would be your best bet if you don't what to go with WI. The key to pump gas power is intercooling. You can do this 2 ways....SMIC with WI or go with a FMIC.

 

[Chadillac2000]

I've got a Hahn FMIC already

 

[spyderturbo007]

Ooops, sorry. There I go ASSuming you had a SMIC

Anyway, it would still be helpful to have a 3rd gear pull from about 2500rpm to redline.

 

[Chadillac2000]

Its hard from me to do that since I have an A/T, I have to get up to about 70 with the OD off and then floor it so it wont downshift, but after the headline of my post, I think i'm just going to bite the bullet and get a coolingmist.com kit since its affordable and should yeild me enough gains to go ahead and bump the boost up to 22 while cleaning the engine, etc.

Here are a list of mods so nobody gets confused: Ported Evo16g Turbo Upgrade (18PSI) / HRC FMIC / RNR o2 Eliminator 3 Inch DP / HKS Super Drager Catback W/ Custom 3 Inch Piping / Greddy Type S BOV / Extreme Technology IC Piping / SAFC II / FIC 650's / OBDII Datalogger w/Palm M505 / Injen Turbo Intake Pipe / K&N Conical Air Filter / Joe P. Manual Boost Controller / 1G 60mm TB / Ported 2g Exhaust Manifold

 

[demonchild]

I had a very similar log when I was first tuning when switching from a 18G to a big 16G. I understand the problem you're having getting a log with the AT. Have you tried putting a little bit of fuel back in at the points where timing is being pulled yet and see how that changes your log?

 

[Chadillac2000]

Agreed, I am going to try adding some fuel where my timing curve dips down to try and get a nice steady timing advance all the way to redline, also could the fact that i'm having to take 30+% of the fuel out at some times since im using 650's have to do with my knock?

 

[oldman]

Agreed, I am going to try adding some fuel where my timing curve dips down to try and get a nice steady timing advance all the way to redline, also could the fact that i'm having to take 30+% of the fuel out at some times since im using 650's have to do with my knock?

Save up and hunt down an eprom ecu and run 18psi for now, put all that porting to good use. Do it right, you might even want to consider dsmlink later, you just never know.

 

[1990EclipseGSX]

Save up and hunt down an eprom ecu and run 18psi for now, put all that porting to good use. Do it right, you might even want to consider dsmlink later, you just never know.

I could not agree more.

 

[Chadillac2000]

so you think that saving up and getting an eprom with a custom chip that compensates for my 650's would be better than going with water injection?

http://www.dsmchips.com/2g.html If you look on his page, doesnt it say that hes selling complete 2g eproms for 260 plus the stage 3 chip, so I could get a fully socketed eprom ecu with chip for 385? hmmm...do I need something special if im a/t

 

[oldman]

so you think that saving up and getting an eprom with a custom chip that compensates for my 650's would be better than going with water injection?

Water injection would be a great addition either way but you're doing it for the wrong reason, like adding a cat to help solve boost creep. Why limit yourself to 22psi? What if you decided to go with a bigger turbo running higher psi, bigger injectors?....Going the eprom route will keep your options open.

http://www.dsmchips.com/2g.html If you look on his page, doesnt it say that hes selling complete 2g eproms for 260 plus the stage 3 chip, so I could get a fully socketed eprom ecu with chip for 385?

That or sell your logger, safc, $125 for the chip, now you're almost talking dsmlink.

hmmm...do I need something special if im a/t

This I do not know but if you do a search on the dsmchips forum, I'm sure you'll find your answer.

BTW an afpr wouldn't hurt either.

 

[GVR4592]

What spark plugs are you running and what gap? The reason I ask is I recently had a big 16g and a jdm fmic on my galant and I was running 22 psi daily with no knock. I wasn't able to go past 18 with my stock plugs so I switched to the bpr7es and i was able to turn the boost up 4psi. It doesn't look like you have too much timing advance from the logs. I normally get about the same but it keeps going up where yours starts knocking. With all of that said I agree with everybody else about getting an eprom and dsmlink. I just bought mine on friday and I'm really looking forward to getting this car tuned with all of the stuff I just bought.

 

[Chadillac2000]

Now that i think of it I think I went one step colder, but im not sure, but that reminds me that need to be replaced i havent changed them in probably over a year ill definitely get on that and see if that changes my log at all

 

[1990EclipseGSX]

That or sell your logger, safc, $125 for the chip, now you're almost talking dsmlink.

This is what I just went throught... Got rid of my logger, AFC, and some old E-PROM's, and it paid for a good part of my DSMLink.

You might go junkyard hunting and see if you can't come up with an E-PROM ECU for cheap. If not, watch the classifieds, people sell them quite frequently.

As Oldman said, going with the E-PROM will help keep your options open. Once you get an E-PROM chip made, you can have it altered for $20 a pop.

If you decide to upgrade to 850cc injectors down the road, you can have a new chip made up for only $20.

I know Jeff O from Keydiver can alter your timing maps as well.

Chris

 

[Chadillac2000]

So you guys are basically saying that you think my knock is coming from me having to take out too much fuel with the safc and tricking the ecu a little too much so its pulling timing a bit, because honestly if i plan on getting WI after this and dont plan on going any bigger (which i dont) i dont see the point unless the fact that im using big injectors is causing my knock

 

[oldman]

So you guys are basically saying that you think my knock is coming from me having to take out too much fuel with the safc and tricking the ecu a little too much so its pulling timing a bit, because honestly if i plan on getting WI after this and dont plan on going any bigger (which i dont) i dont see the point unless the fact that im using big injectors is causing my knock

Straight out of dsmchips.com.

Why do I need injector compensation?
If you already have an AFC, AFR, VPC, or some other method of fuel control, you may wonder why you would need to correct for it in the ECU. Well, the big problem is that all those air/fuel controllers work on the same principal: they lie to the ECU about the airflow, to get the ECU to reduce the injector pulsewidth. And, yes, it does work. However, the ECU also uses the amount of airflow to decide many other things, like what timing advance or A/F ratio to use. So, the larger the injectors you have, the more your piggyback computer LIES to the ECU, and the further off the factory maps you are running. This may be great for racing at the track with C16 fuel, where leaner A/F's and more timing advance can help, but on pump gas this means LOTS of knock. By correcting for the injectors in the ECU, using the Mitsubishi "Global Fuel" location, you can allow the ECU to see the full airflow amount, and still run on the proper maps!

 

[Chadillac2000]

thanks well i guess its done then, guess i gotta go eprom, ill probably end up just getting one from him because ill spend the shipping charges and everything picking up and eprom and then getting it socketed and then getting it shipped back