DSMChips stage 3 95 ecu (Keydiver), now low timing

[lowridin2g]

tonight i installed my 95 ecu presocketed with a stage 3 keydivers chip from jeff O. its made for my 650 injectors, CAS inversion cause i have a 97-99 cas. blah blah bunch of others.

welp when i went out to tune it, no matter how rich or how lean i made it with the safc, the most timing i could see was 16 degrees from 7,000 - 7300 rpm. i could not get anymore. so i tried leaning it out and started getting less timing, o2's were at .96 across. eventually my cel would flash (5 or more counts of knock). so i richened it up till the knock was gone and until i could find the best timing advance. hoping for around 18 degrees by 7,000. but its is just not happening

possibly it has something to do with the CAS inversion programmed into the chip? possibly i have my firing order wrong? although the car does not seem to skip at all. hard for me to tell at idle and low throttle with the hks 272/272's though.

another thing my tps % is very erractic on my safc and never ever was before. at idle it will say .2 - 1.2 and jump around back and forth. then if i shut the car off but turn the key on and push the gas pedal to the floor and let and repeat a few times the safc will relearn and be back at 0% when off throttle and 100% when wot. start it up, it starts saying the throttle is open a bit. and it will only say 97-98 % open when im on it full throttle. again it was perfect with old ecu in. throttle plate is opening all the way, i checked. stumped here. anyone help me?

EDIT: im mostly concerned with why my timing is so low, and what the correct firing order would be. thanks

 

[CanadianTSi]

It might be because of the fact that you are not lying to the car with an S-AFC anymore, therefore it doesn't think that your not flowing much air and gives you tons of timing.

I think 16 is the optimal number in the stock maps and now that the car actually see's whats going on this is what it's giving you. That's my though anyways.

Where's KPT4321 when you need him

 

[lowridin2g]

canadian, i think you are very correct. but i also agree kpt def knows his stuff and needs to give me a lil insight here

what really concerns me is wouldnt i be making more power on 18-19 degrees of timing advance at 22 psi that i used to get with just safc?

i mean if id be making less power with this ecu and chip then i will sell it. biggest things i got it for is my CEL light comes on after 5 or more counts of knock. each bar on my stock boost gauge is 5 knock sum. i got a 2 step launch control studde rbox which is awesome, build 10 psi at a 5250 rpm studder stand still.

help

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

It might be because of the fact that you are not lying to the car with an S-AFC anymore, therefore it doesn't think that your not flowing much air and gives you tons of timing.

I think 16 is the optimal number in the stock maps and now that the car actually see's whats going on this is what it's giving you. That's my though anyways.

Where's KPT4321 when you need him

True, but he said he was still leaning it out with his AFC and not making any more timing, just starting to knock.

 

[CanadianTSi]

True, but he said he was still leaning it out with his AFC and not making any more timing, just starting to knock.

Good point, what are your S-AFC settings and how much did you try leaning it out?

 

[lowridin2g]

lows are at zero, highs are at -4 then gradually climbs up to -10 at redline. i went as far as leaning it out to -20 by redline and only got 13 degrees timing advance from 6,000 - 7200 rpm with 5 counts of knock and .94 o2 voltages.

i find i get 16 degrees max now grdually climbing up to -10 by redline on the safc, 16 degrees is the most it will make. also, o2;s were at .98 and .96, one log were straight .96 across and the next log was .98 across with the same safc settings and the same 16 degrees advance from 6800 - 7300 rpm. this is all on 22 psi 93 octane, 43 psi base fuel pressure.

my settings on stock ecu were up to -38 by redline on safc and i was getting .96 o2's and 18-19 deg advance from 7,000 - 7300. ill try and get a log tomorrow and post it. it is turkey day and all. and also this goddamn rain is gonna hang around for the most part tomorrow. i had to put new batteries in my logger so all my logs i did tonight are gone.

 

[Syndicate13]

The DSM ECU has several maps that it uses to apply timing and fuel adjustments. On the highest airflow map, roughly 2.1 g/sec the ECU will give a max of 16 degrees timing advance. The reason you are now only seeing that 16 degrees with the chip is because you are not lying to the ECU anymore. With just an AFC taking away that airflow signal it puts you on the mid airflow map which will give between 19-22 degrees timing advance. This is one of the downfalls of piggyback type devices. You'll always make more power with boost than timing so try running more boost at the same fuel settings. The 2 step really is cool, I love mine, although a 5250 stutter nets me 16-17 psi at a standstill, gotta love DSMlink.

 

[lowridin2g]

welp the fact that im only in the -7 to -10 in the upper rpm range on my safc gives me the shitty timing maps cause the ecu is seeing more airflow correct? so my chip is made for 650 injectors. my base fp right now is 43 psi with vac line off.

say i were to bump base fp up to 46 or 47 psi at idle. now that would allow me to run richer making me able to subtract more % out on the safc giving me the more agressive timing maps again? because the ecu would be seeing less airflow due to the higher correction factors i will be able to pull out on my afc again? again im not looking for alot of timing. just 18-19 deg at redline would be nice instead of a max of 16 deg. like i said i used to get 18-20 redline.

KPT4321 help me out on this one man. i know you know your stuff when it comes to tuning

 

[danl]

When guys run bigger injectors on a completely stock ecu, what they are doing is dialing out the extra fuel with the AFC. You are basically telling the ecu that you are running on a smaller load than you really are. The result is that since the ecu sees less load, it reduces the pulse width of the injectors. Consequently the lower load tables also have much more ignition timing. More ignition timing increases the chances for preignition which the ecu sees as knock. When the ecu senses knock it pulls timing, and you feel the power loss. So, what most people end up doing on pump gas is running a lot more fuel than they should to try to keep knock at bay due to the elevated ignition timing (with respect to the load value).

When you have the ecu compensate for the fuel injectors, the whole ballgame changes. You are actually getting a good timing curve for the load value. However the higher load maps in the dsm ecu still put you extremely rich at somewhere on the order of 9.5:1 air/fuel ratio. The 650cc chip I have from jeff at dsmchips.com runs a little richer than it should for my 650cc injectors, further compounding the problem.

I’m a big fan of running fairly rich on the street because pump gas is volatile and you should have a little reserve built into your tuning. However 9.5:1 air fuel ratio is rich to the point that you are costing yourself a ton of power. You should try to shoot for at least mid 11:1 air/fuel ratio.

If you are flowing any amount of air at all, then you pretty much place yourself on the last load map in the ecu when the chip fully is compensating for the injectors. What this means is that you are on the last load map and will see the timing at that value any time you are in serious boost. This is good in my opinion, as many DSM’s run too much timing on pump gas, and too much fuel.

Try leaning it out and the power should be coming back. If that doesn’t do it, have jeff burn you a new chip with more timing on the last load value.

I am running a PTE 50 trim, front mount, and 650cc injectors. I burn my own chips and have the ecu compensate fully for the injectors and timing. I see 13-15 degrees of timing at 23 psi boost and the car pulls pretty hard. With big loads on pump gas, your not going to be able to run big ignition timing. Depending on your power level, the 16 degrees at full boost may or may not be enough for you. Once again, experiment with having new chips burned.

Also, that chip will run like ass on race gas. You can afford to run some pretty big timing on race gas (and a lean a/f ratio as well). Thats why hacking the maf signal works so well on dsms on racegas. You add timing, and take fuel out with the afc or simillar device, which is perfect for race gas.

 

[Syndicate13]

He's right. I am on the high airflow map with a small 16g. I usually pull 2.3 g/sec on pump gas so your 50 trim is flowing a lot more air. You're not going to be able to get back to that 19-20 degree advance unless you buy an ITC or switch to DSMlink. I honestly don't see why people still use piggybacks and chips. For what you paid for all that stuff you could have bought DSMlink and be done with it.

 

[lowridin2g]

i plan on going dsm link when i go six bolt. im hoping to get another racing season out of my 7 bolt ( 77 k miles and a comp. test 180 across the boards about a month ago) so next fall i can start a build up of a 6 bolt and hopefully get one of slowboys race heads to go with it. i have checked my crank end play but not actually measured it with a mic yet. let me tell you there was like nothing to measure. i now have a 95 ecu already socketed so all i will have to do is purchase the dsm link software and a laptop.

please dont tell me i should have went dsm link. i know its a lot better management system no doubt about it. like i said when i tear my car apart, i might as well add dsm link then dont you think?

back on the oringinal topic, i dont want to argue which is better cause i know dsm link is a better choice. back on topic of my situation

 

[CanadianTSi]

Well I was right

Looks like you've got two options 1) run more boost. 2) Turn up the FP sp you are more negative on the S-AFC to get your timing back.

I vote for number 1

 

[lowridin2g]

2) Turn up the FP sp you are more negative on the S-AFC to get your timing back.

ive gone for number 2. im still on a 77k stock headgasket and head studs at 22 psi with my 50 trim, i dont want to puch it, . hopefully ill get some logs later on tonight if this rain stops. i turned up the base fp to 47 psi and leaned out the safc more. feels quicker, will report back later with a couple logs

 

[danl]

Your going to have to take out enough fuel with the afc that your ecu sees less than 2.06 grams/rev of air to get off the highest load maps. That will be next to impossible without running overly lean. Let the ecu do the work, get your chip reburned.

 

[CanadianTSi]

2) Turn up the FP so you are more negative on the S-AFC to get your timing back.

ive gone for number 2. im still on a 77k stock headgasket and head studs at 22 psi with my 50 trim, i dont want to puch it, . hopefully ill get some logs later on tonight if this rain stops. i turned up the base fp to 47 psi and leaned out the safc more. feels quicker, will report back later with a couple logs

Nice, it will be interesting to see if that works, and how much did turning up the FP screw up your low settings on the S-AFC?

 

[Syndicate13]

Why are you so overly concerned with timing anyway? You do know that running a little less timing will allow you to run a little leaner thereby making the same if not more power than before.

 

[lowridin2g]

Nice, it will be interesting to see if that works, and how much did turning up the FP screw up your low settings on the S-AFC?

i turned up the fp to 47 psi. at -4 on the lows my ltft sits anywhere from -1 to 0 to 1 and my stft jumps around from -5 to 0. i would say my fuel trims are pretty damn close. and turning up the fp did not work,at 22 psi i was starting to see knock so i had to add fuel again till the knock went away, now im seeing 16 deg advance again, let me go get my logger and ill post my log

 

[lowridin2g]

ok here it is, base fp 47 psi, 38 degree night on 93 octane and 22 psi.

afc settings on high are : 1,000 -8, 2,000 -9, 2600 -9, 3000 -9, 3600 -9, 4000 -10, 4600 -10, 5000 -10, 5600-10, 6000 -11, 6600 -11, 7000 -11

RPM TIMING O2BANK1
3860 18 .88
3976 13 .92
4124 11 .94
4316 7 .94
4516 8 .96
4720 8 .96
4940 9 .96
5152 10 .94
5348 11 .96
5596 12 .96
5780 13 .96
6008 14 .96
6220 15 .96
6388 16 .96
6572 16 .96
6772 16 .96
6928 16 .96
7108 16 .96
7272 16 .96

 

[Syndicate13]

Looks fine to me, a little rich actually. Leave FP alone and try leaning out a little. As long as the timing curve looks srong like that you're doing pretty good. We've already explained to you more than once why you are and will continue to see only 16 degrees timing advance at the top of the gear. Good luck with getting it tuned in and running better than before.

 

[lowridin2g]

thank you, i guess im just gonna have to accept it. another thing, if i lean it out any more i start to see knock. ive found even before the chip i always had to tune for .96 o2 voltages. stock o2 voltages dont really tell u that much anyway. in a month ill have my wideband which will help a ton with tuning. and im also debating on an external wastegate setup or water injection kit, cant decide

P.S. the car definetly hauls ass

 

[CatchMe]

Your new chip determines timing advance according to air flow. Same with DSMlink - when I first started using it I would only get 16 deg of advance. Now I have it tuned to run about 18 with my 30% xylene mixture. Remember when I told you that your car was knocking back when you only had the data logger and running 22psi? Running that much boost with stock timing advance (19-20 deg. adv.) - Even though your 02's and your stock timing curve looks good doesnt mean you not getting knock. I found that out as soon as I got dsmlink and tryed to run 21 psi and 20 deg of advance just like I did when I only had the data logger and afc. BTW if you run only 15 psi you will get about 20 deg of advance with that chip.

 

[SUPERMAC]

i have a similar issue with my 1995 GST except i have no timing at all. mine is set at 0 for some reason. i dont have anyway of setting it. i dont have a CAS or anything. so how would i go about setting it up right. i also have a stage 3 keydiver kit, and it seems to work fine, but my timing is all thats holding me up now and i cant get my car to rev properly without it set to 5* (thats what i heard it should be set to).

so please help if you dont mind.

thanks,
chris

 

[danl]

For refference here is my 1g with rpm, knock, and timing on a 3rd gear pull with the 50 trim. Sorry I couldn't make the log any longer, 3rd gear doesen't last especially long. You can see how much timing I actually took out compared to stock, and the knock takes out a degree every 3 counts in the 1g ecu. Still, the car pulls hard and that is what really matters here. The purpose of ignition timing is to place the peak pressure of the burn right at maxium mechanical advantage (or right before) to achieve the best torque. With high cylinder pressures (bigger turbo at good boost levels) you must reduce your timing on the last load value due to the vastly different burn characteristics of your modified motor. You can't expect a t25 (2g) or a 14b (1g) dsm at ~12 psi boost levels to burn the same as a 50 trim equipped car at 20+ psi boost. Adjust your timing accordingly.





Time RPM KNOCK TIMING

00:04.9 4906 0 15
00:05.1 5156 9 12
00:05.3 5125 8 11
00:05.5 5469 8 11
00:05.7 5406 8 10
00:05.9 5563 7 11
00:06.1 5750 8 11
00:06.3 5906 8 11
00:06.5 6031 7 12
00:06.7 6156 7 12
00:07.0 6281 10 11
00:07.2 6375 9 12
00:07.4 6500 9 12
00:07.6 6594 10 11
00:07.9 6750 9 12




P.S. I may be running to little timing, not sure yet. However the car is pulling better than ever, I will have to continue researching what works best on pump gas.

 

[CatchMe]

Supermac, you have a cam angle sensor and a crank position sensor on a 7 bolt motor. 6 bolts have a CAS and that simulates for the crank position based on the CAS. Sounds like you have a ECU issue and I don't know much about these chips - im a dsmlink guy. POST A LOG if you can.

 

[SUPERMAC]

well right now my damn car is running like pig shit and the ####in thing wont even start or hold rev. its kinda like the MAS stopped working. my dad swears up and down that its fuel but he doenst know jack about these cars (old school guy). i need some serious help and my wallet just can keep dumping money into this ####ing car any more. im about ready to push it off a cliff.

thanks,
chris