I'm sure I'm going with a garret T3/T4 60 Trim.

A 50 Trim is an excellent turbo. I will be running higher boost and higher octane. If a 50 trim is one of the best all around pump gas compressors I'm betting that a 60 trim would be the best all around alcohol compressor.

I've got the manifold, o2 and external WG figured out.

It will be ethanol not methanol. It is'nt as demanding and detrimental to fuel system components. It does'nt attack polymers anywhere near as bad as methanol. I have an ecu and wideband o2 picked out. I am some what certain as to injector sizing. The A/F for this stuff is around 9:1 so much larger injectors are needed than a similar race gas engine. I'll likely use bosch 160lb hr just to be on the safe side. The system will be less dependant on high fuel pressure to provide flow and I can keep the injector duty cycle low.

I wil be starting at 85% ethanol 15% gas ~105. Straight ethanol is 115 octane. The gas helps with cold starts. I've looked at college engineering projects for how they solve cold start issues. Some have really rich cold start via the ecu. Some use timing tricks.

There are some other issues to using the stuff like potential cylinder wasdown. So you would need to have an idle on the lean side but with alot of cold start enrichment. You also burn more of the stuff so milage goes down.

There are pros too. Lower cc temps and higher octane are just two. You also don't have to ride as close to the ragged edge of timing and a/f when tuning for power like with gas. Running a bit richer with a cooler fuel should do wonders for keeping the piston tops cool.

I guess I'm looking for info from anyone who has built a DSM for ethanol. I have regional availability and supplier contacts for the fuel which makes it much more umm... financially attractive than race fuel.

You can do a web search on ethanol racing if you have never seen it used for that. Here is one site.

http://www.ethanol.org/racing/e_racing_resources.html

I am talking to some v-8, drag and circle track ppl who use it. Alot of these guys ARE making big power on the stuff.

While I wait for inteligent responses here I will continue my www dragnet for ethanol fueled racing vehicle tech. I have yet to see a TC'd import of any kind on the stuff. So I though I'd ask here for people who are/have applied this to a 4g63.


Thanks in advance!

I found this on a post here

Some of the best online calculators I've seen yet.

http://www.stealth316.com/2-air-fuel-flow.htm

I can plug in A/F for E98 and E85 into the calculator as well as specify a lower duty cycle than 80%.

I have had many big buck builders recomend oversized injectors to eliminate the need to run excessive pressure and it allows for better injection angle timing with good ecu's.

I'll need to machine bigger bosses in the head and use a fuel rail with bigger injector ports on it. Anybody know where I can get a fuel rail that is blank except for threads for AN connections on each end?

This site was OK but he must be measuring A/F differently or something the stoichemetric ratio is different on all the other ethanol sites I've seen.

http://www.battleoftheimports.com/pressroom/20030301.shtml

I liked this part however.

What kind of power gains are typical with ethanol or methanol?

Click to expand...

Ethanol's and methanol's high antiknock rating permits compression ratios as high as 16:1 or more. It also permits higher boost in turbocharged engines than even gasoline blended specifically for that application, such as VP-C16. This is because the high heat of vaporization of ethanol and methanol chills the intake air enough to significantly improve engine volumetric efficiency. Actual power gains will vary depending on engine configuration, compression ratio, boost levels, engine management systems, etc.

Click to expand...

What do I need for an IC? I have heard conflicting reports. Some say to use a front mount like every body else and other say not to bother?

My buddys carbed v-8 frosts up the carb momentarily when you rev it pretty cool. pun intended.

I have also been told that dispite the lower CC temps the exhuast stream is hotter and should help with spooling the turbo due to the increased velocity.

Please if you have done it even to a honda or something please respond!

First Q is why ethanol? Is this going to be a full on race car? If so, build a high compression engine over 10.0:1, get a very large turbo, and run upwards of 40psi. A weldon or aeromotive alcohol pump will be fine, run -10AN lines and I guess....staged injection, with the primaried being around 850cc and the secondaries around 1600cc. Just my opinion. Aniel P has made 666whp at low boost (35ish psi) on a setup similar to this.

jeff

First Q is why ethanol?

Click to expand...

I'm getting it cheaper than 93 octane thru a hook up.

So even for just cruising its a boon.

So it's not only performance related but regional availibility and pricing.

Ever see a FFV?

They run a single bank of injectors about 50% larger than the non FFV version and a fuel sensor.

The ECU knows what is in the tank via the sensor and adjusts accordingly.

Why not a high performance FFV?

So I'll run a single bank of very fast, very large injectors and an ecu capable of driving them at their capabilities.

Yes the high compression full on race setup like that would be cool but considering fuel prices it makes sense to convert.

Alot of people around here are getting E85 fueled daily drivers.

It's properties as a fuel make it a good idea even at moderate power levels.

I can get cheaper fuel that a turbo likes, polute less and support the farmer.

Win win.

I have to buy, injectors, a pump and an ECU anyway so just upsize the fuel delivery.

Aniel P has made 666whp at low boost (35ish psi) on a setup similar to this.

Click to expand...

Works good does'nt it?

What tc is he running?
Is that on E98 or E85?
What does he have for an IC?

You don't need as high of static comp with the E85. I thought I'd just mix in E98 with E85 for track days to what ever % the car responds best to. I'll toodle around town and spank ricers on E85 since it cold starts better and is available at many stations around here. If the 60 trim lags too much for my taste I'll keep it for the track and get a smaller T3/T4 for the road.

Bosch 160lb (1680cc) Low Impedance

About $125 each at most places

However

http://www.musclemotors.com/clutch.htm

I'll have an extra set I can sell

I'll send the search engines into overload looking for Aneil P now.

Aniel Pagan, Tulsa, OK. He owns a shop called AP Racing. His car actually runs on methanol and he doesnt use an IC at all. Engine management is Haltech E6K.

Thanks for clearing up your plans for the car also.

jeff

I think this is it. AP racing gets me brakes big enough and powerfull enough for a concord!

http://www.humbleperformance.com/about.html

So no IC on Methanol

Lets see here

Latent Heat of Vaporization

Methanol
1.17

Ethanol
0.93

Race Gas
0.18

With 15% gas mix I guesing it's something like .7 but I'm sure I can find it.

Sure beats race gas.

If I use an IC might try a side mount with bigger inlets and outlet ports for high CFM low pressure drop. Just enough IC to make up for the difference in cooling between ethanol and methanol

I'd be getting the same compressor outlet temps the alch fuel will do it's own intercooling in the combustion chambers.

A 60trim is not a big turbo, a P trim .71 AR T-66 with the T04S comp housing is a big turbo. Just use C-16.

~John

Just use C-16.

Click to expand...

Why?

Look!

It also permits higher boost in turbocharged engines than even gasoline blended specifically for that application, such as VP-C16.

Click to expand...

I can get ethanol nearly anywhere around town sometimes less than regular gas prices.

VP-c16 costs what a gallon?

Aniel and his brother used to have Humble together, now Aniel has his own which is AP Racing.

jeff

I have'nt found AP yet.


I looked thru some of the threads on 60 trims. Some of your stuff and others has sold me on the GT40 56 trim.

Now for the turbine housing options?

Interesting idea....

As far as AP Racing goes, I'm not sure if this is the same AP Racing but there is one listed in the advertiser index of Sport Compact Car.

www.apracingusa.com

However it has an address listed in Costa Mesa, CA and is an ad for brake upgrades. Probably wont help but I figured I'd throw that out there for you. Good luck on your project.

http://www.venom-performance.com/nf/html/02supra.htm
Supra
Hp: 1498
on Ethanol


http://www.venom-performance.com/nf/html/racetoc.htm

All four are on E98

The civic is runing 824 Hp on an Integra motor with E98.

I'll be firing emails about fuel system components.

The fuel has a higher oxygen content.

This coupled with it's cooling properies alows more power with less IC.

I've thought it over and a normal FMIC while not manditory would be good.

The compressor outlet temps will be the same regardless of the fuel.

Since the fuel gets injected right at the intake valve the cooling is taking place during cylinder filling.

Cooler charge temps are good no matter what fuel. No IC will drop the temp below what it will ignite at.

More air means more fuel which means more power. Arrruuuugghhh More power ... grunt grunt.

Well man sounds to me like you have all the answers you are looking for already! So don't feel the need to have someone on this board to agree with you so that you'll try this type of set-up. It's obvious no one here uses it. So stop asking quetions and build the car. Be the test dummy and blaze a new trail! That is how we get new shit right? someone has to try these things out! Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm still waiting for more ppl to chime in.

Maybe I'll browse one of those other car sites. Supra ETC and see what they did.

I am still wating for a DSM'er to have a setup like that.

Somebody has got to be thinking the same thing with DSM's so hopefully I can rap with somebody else and learn from their mistakes.

If not I'll shut my cake hole untill I have pics of those 1680cc injectors on a rail

I would definantly say go with a ts04 instead of a 60 trim to4e. Maybe your thinking of a 60-1 which would be a pretty good sized turbo for high boost.

The ethanol is a good idea and sounds like a cheaper alternative to race gas.

No I'm not thinking TS04.

I'm thinking really hot street not full race.

I'm currently torn between.

SC616376 56 trim GT Wheel

SCM61 56 trim GT Wheel

The impedence is wrong on the injectors I was looking at. It's fords idea of low impedance and they are slow pintle type injectors. I got the part # off them from the shop and looked it up.

I really need 4 bosch "Indy" injectors. A lot of full drag Rx7's are sporting those and they are the right impedance.

This place has them.

http://www.efimotorsport.com/products_maxed.htm

What is with the ausies and high tech performance parts?

I know what they are now and working on getting a spec sheet.

The pump and FPR on that site look good too.

I'll just need to find a us supplier of bosch motorsports parts.

It's getting there.

I have the parts selected and just need to get them 1x1.

I have a TSO4 with a .63 A/R turbine housing on my car and i drive it every day.

Originally posted by DV8tion
I have a TSO4 with a .63 A/R turbine housing on my car and i drive it every day.

Click to expand...

When do you hit full spool?

another shop that migh help is F2uning in idaho they have a few cars on methonal.

www.f2uning.com

pretty cool guys the talon runs faster than most anybody here on this board.

Originally posted by KGB Pilot125
another shop that migh help is F2uning in idaho they have a few cars on methonal.

www.f2uning.com

pretty cool guys the talon runs faster than most anybody here on this board.

Click to expand...

Nice motor and very well planned out setup but

That poor poor automatic transmission. It's getting used and abused.

I'd use an AIC and two additional injectors plumbed to a 1 gallon fuel cell with race gas for starting. I had to do this with my bbc drag car due to washdown. I have pics of the adapter plate. It installs forward of the tb between the tb and the elbow. This allows better tuning as you don't have to worry about start up and warm up. Just size the dual injectors to what you need to run clean. Actually, I ran my bbc at idle with these two injectors and then switched over via fuel solenoids to alky, and it should work on a 4 cyl. I am a dsm'er now, but haven't gone that far yet. The additional two injectors can be made to activate boost dependent, so you don't have to go quite as big on the regular injectors. As a plus, you can fit a nitrous spray bar in the housing for the additional injectors and the fuel is already right there...
Email me and I'll send ya a pic of the injector adapter plumbed into the new setup for the gvr4 I am building. You'll see immediatly how it is set up.
dave

You do have to take into account the fact that DSM engines have oil squirters.

This helps prevent washdown.

Also if you a judicious with your tuning you won't be running rich enough at idle to cause it.

A single small cold start injector fed acetone should work.

http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel14.html

I'll likely be running mostly 85% on the street it cold starts and idles better and I can drive right up to pumps all over the place and get it these days. This would'nt require any help starting.

My little bros stock ranger runs on the E85 stock out of the box. It's not as nasty as methanol and much easier to setup to run on.

The stations around here have 60% in the winter for startup. I won't drive the DSM in the winter any more. I don't want it to see salt. I'll get a toyota 4x4 pickup for a winter beater.

The E98 IS available but not in a direct path to the mall or supermarket.
I'll either save it for track days or run a single squirter of acetone when the engine is cold.