Any way to make a 14b into a downfiring turbo..instead of up?

PieEyedPiper · Feb 2, 2007

Not knowing much about MHI turbos, as I own a T-25, I'm clueless as to what my options are for this, if any.

Is it possible to "clock" the compressor cover on a 14b?
The reason I'm asking is soley for the purposes of NOT having a big ugly j-pipe on my 2g and to remain as stealth as possible.

I just dug up this picture. If there is no practical way of doing this then it's not as bad as I thought. Still looks remotely stock/clean IMO.

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CanadianTSi · Feb 2, 2007

Yes you can clock the compressor cover. You will need to make a custom bracket for the Wastegate Actuator though.

daren_p · Feb 2, 2007

I would imagine a 14b would have the same style comp cover as a 16g & if so it is possible to do but probably not worth it. The comp cover is held on by a large snap ring & there a a large locating dowl & a notch out of the comp cover so you can position it corectly when installing it. If you grind this dowl down you can position the cover however you want. You have to remember that the 14b's/16g's exit at a funny angle & not the normal straight out like a 50 trim etc. You would still have to make a custom outlet pipe so unless you have the proper tools to do it yourself it probably isn't worth the hassle/cost to have someone else custom fab it. Then you also need some way to mount the WG actuator. I'd just get a jpipe & be done with it, it makes things alot easier & IC pipes are already designed to work with its outlet location.

PieEyedPiper · Feb 2, 2007

Thanks for the info guys,
valid points.

Questions though, do you know if the j pipe will have enough clearance to attach to the comp cover once "clocked" 180*?

And am I to understand you can clock it 180* OR grind the dowel and have it however you want?

Thanks!

xveganxcowboyx · Feb 2, 2007

When I did my FMIC I cut the stock outlet piece from the flange and turned and angled it a bit. It comes out a little more horrizontal and towards the drivers side radiator fan. Pretty easy job and it made things a little cleaner. As long as you can get a wrench in to tighten it down you can angle the thing however you want.

Just a possible easy solution.

PieEyedPiper · Feb 2, 2007

Wait,
so, you cut your j-pipe and welded it I assume to face a different direction?

Having a hard time envisioning what you're describing.

1stGenRocks · Feb 2, 2007

all i did with my 6bolt swap with a b16g in a 2g was modify the stock LICP and leave the stock 1g jpipe the way it was.

just cut the straight vertical section of the LICP and add about 6-7 inches of metal piping. trim the wire clips on the fan and shift the wire to the side and the licp will sit right agaisnt the back of the fan.

DSMunknown · Feb 2, 2007

PieEyedPiper said:
Is it possible to "clock" the compressor cover on a 14b?
The reason I'm asking is soley for the purposes of NOT having a big ugly j-pipe on my 2g and to remain as stealth as possible.

As it has already been said, it is very possible to clock this turbo and any 16G. As I have said before in a recent post, I also have great contempt for the J-pipe.

You may think the J-pipe "looks" ugly (which it is), but if you carry this procedure out, you should be doing it for the right reasons. Let me explain. As we were discussing in another thread, directional changes regarding airflow are bad. But now we're discussing the intake side of the turbocharger, and directional changes are now really bad. Here is a post I made recently discussing this very same issue.

DSMunknown said:
gsx1992 said:
If you remove that alignment dowel, I don't see why you couldn't clock the EVOIII 16g.
Click to expand...

So other than what Cy (gsx1992) has told us, it seems the only reason for this dowel pin is to only allow for the housing be connected one way. It also seems (thus far) evident that this particular turbo housing does indeed have the ability to rotate in a number of ways.

This is good news.

The reason I ask is this:

I have read (and was explaining to some friends at the meet the other week) that it has been estimated (regarding airflow) that an abrupt 180 degree turn with three inch tubing is equal to 8-to-10 feet of straight three inch tubing. So the emphasis here is on the changing direction of the fluid (aka air). And as we see with many J-pipes, the angle out of the compressor and through the J-pipe can generally be around 150 (or so) degrees of change.

Therefore, if I can get around the use of a J-pipe (of course, this would mean a custom LICP) then theoretically the airflow to the intercooler will be much smoother and more beneficial overall.

The numbers are not what is centrally important here. The theory is what is vital. Kevin (95gsxracer) is in agreeance with me. If you have any further questions about this theory, be my guest and ask him yourself.

When regarding the J-pipe, with every degree that the (pressurized) air has to change direction, it takes away from its optimal flow capabilities. Avoiding any unnecessary changes in direction, ID reduction, and such is a great thing to achieve.

CanadianTSi said:
Yes you can clock the compressor cover. You will need to make a custom bracket for the Wastegate Actuator though.

I wouldn't even bother. Do yourself a favor and purchase an external WG (and of course, either an appropriate O2 housing or exhaust manifold).

daren_p said:
I would imagine a 14b would have the same style comp cover as a 16g & if so it is possible to do but probably not worth it. The comp cover is held on by a large snap ring & there a a large locating dowl & a notch out of the comp cover so you can position it corectly when installing it. If you grind this dowl down you can position the cover however you want. You have to remember that the 14b's/16g's exit at a funny angle & not the normal straight out like a 50 trim etc. You would still have to make a custom outlet pipe so unless you have the proper tools to do it yourself it probably isn't worth the hassle/cost to have someone else custom fab it. Then you also need some way to mount the WG actuator. I'd just get a jpipe & be done with it, it makes things alot easier & IC pipes are already designed to work with its outlet location.

Again, it will be and it is worth it.

Again, my issue here is airflow and maximizing its potential.

PieEyedPiper said:
Questions though, do you know if the j pipe will have enough clearance to attach to the comp cover once "clocked" 180*?

Um, I think you are a little confused, or you misphrased the question, or something. If you clock your turbo (whether it be a 14b or 16G) so that the compressor-side housing outlet is facing down to the ground, you should simply throw that damn J-pipe in the trash bin and never ever go near one again.

If you clocked the compressor-side housing so that it was about 180* in relation to its original placement, and then bolted on a full J-pipe, the J-pipe outlet would be pointing to the sky. :barf:

And am I to understand you can clock it 180* OR grind the dowel and have it however you want?

From what I have been told, you can simply remove the dowel pin and then clock the turbo. For the Evo III 16G, the dowel pin is there so that the turbocharger can only be bolted together one way. I assume that the 14b can be fit in the same boat as this turbo.

PieEyedPiper · Feb 2, 2007

Thanks for outlining and clarifying that for me, Anthony.

I see that the j-pipe could be point straight up as you mentioned, but after looking at the picture I provided, it looks as though it would point more horizontal than vertical, just as it does currently on that downward angle would be an upward angle. It does not appear ot be an extreme angle.
Modifying the j-pipe or fabbing a different one is something I considered to ensure clocking the turbo was doable in the sense of the j-pipe orientation.
I asked if there is clearance, once clocked, just to make sure I can get a wrench in there and attach the thing.
I wonder if there is any way to use my greddy 2g LICP with a 14b..

To reiterate, I'm interested in this for stealthiness and smog.
If any performance can be gained or "bends" can be removed in the process that is just making this all the sweeter.

An external WG is out of the question, I can barely afford the 14b itself! OMG

I think I can handle a bracket for the WG actuator, but it will most likely prove to be a pain.

What do you think can be done to maximize flow through clocking/j-pipe/licp arrangements etc?

Has any of this been seriously attempted before? You'd think it has.

xveganxcowboyx · Feb 2, 2007

PieEyedPiper said:
Wait,
so, you cut your j-pipe and welded it I assume to face a different direction?

Having a hard time envisioning what you're describing.

Yeah, I just cut it around where the pipe meets the flange. I then turned it about 90 degrees counter clockwise, ground the base of the pipe a little on one side and rewelded it. The outlet of the pipe now points towards the radiator and is angled a little lower than before.

If I can find a pic I'll post it up.

DSMunknown · Feb 2, 2007

PieEyedPiper said:
Thanks for outlining and clarifying that for me, Anthony.

I see that the j-pipe could be point straight up as you mentioned, but after looking at the picture I provided, it looks as though it would point more horizontal than vertical, just as it does currently on that downward angle would be an upward angle. It does not appear ot be an extreme angle.

Perhaps it depends on whether you are sticking with a SMIC or utilizing a FMIC (and where the end tank inlet is to be located). Since I will be sticking with a SMIC for as long as theoretically possible, it seems to me that the compressor-side outlet needs to be either pointing [A:] straight down to the ground, or [B:] slightly pointing in the direction of the tranny. Again, I am thinking in terms of least resistance and minimizing the number of bends, and minimizing the angles of the bends themselves.

If any performance can be gained or "bends" can be removed in the process that is just making this all the sweeter.

Right, but for your own knowledge sake and understanding, you should fully understand the effects of actualizing such a process.

An external WG is out of the question, I can barely afford the 14b itself!

That's just too bad. It really is.

I think I can handle a bracket for the WG actuator, but it will most likely prove to be a pain.

I'm in agreeance with you.

What do you think can be done to maximize flow through clocking/j-pipe/licp arrangements etc?

Either keeping the number of bends to a minimal, or have the angle of the bends be as minimal as possible (both are relatively the same thing, at least in my case).

Has any of this been seriously attempted before? You'd think it has.

One can only hope.

xveganxcowboyx · Feb 2, 2007

Here you go. I guess if you're sticking with the side mount this configuration obviously won't work for you, but you may be able to come up with a good angle.

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daren_p · Feb 3, 2007

DSMunknown said:
As it has already been said, it is very possible to clock this turbo and any 16G. As I have said before in a recent post, I also have great contempt for the J-pipe.

You may think the J-pipe "looks" ugly (which it is), but if you carry this procedure out, you should be doing it for the right reasons. Let me explain. As we were discussing in another thread, directional changes regarding airflow are bad. But now we're discussing the intake side of the turbocharger, and directional changes are now really bad. Here is a post I made recently discussing this very same issue.

The numbers are not what is centrally important here. The theory is what is vital. Kevin (95gsxracer) is in agreeance with me. If you have any further questions about this theory, be my guest and ask him yourself.

When regarding the J-pipe, with every degree that the (pressurized) air has to change direction, it takes away from its optimal flow capabilities. Avoiding any unnecessary changes in direction, ID reduction, and such is a great thing to achieve.

I wouldn't even bother. Do yourself a favor and purchase an external WG (and of course, either an appropriate O2 housing or exhaust manifold).

Again, it will be and it is worth it.

Again, my issue here is airflow and maximizing its potential.

Um, I think you are a little confused, or you misphrased the question, or something. If you clock your turbo (whether it be a 14b or 16G) so that the compressor-side housing outlet is facing down to the ground, you should simply throw that damn J-pipe in the trash bin and never ever go near one again.

If you clocked the compressor-side housing so that it was about 180* in relation to its original placement, and then bolted on a full J-pipe, the J-pipe outlet would be pointing to the sky.

From what I have been told, you can simply remove the dowel pin and then clock the turbo. For the Evo III 16G, the dowel pin is there so that the turbocharger can only be bolted together one way. I assume that the 14b can be fit in the same boat as this turbo.

I do not disagree that an abrupt 180 deg bend after a straight length of pipe will have a negative effect on flow but Im not so sure a jpipe has the same effect your talking about. A jpipe is not so much of an abrupt turn & it isn't coming of a nice straight piece of pipe. It's coming directly off a comp cover which already has the air flowing in a radial direction. If you clock the cover you still aren't going to have a direct route to either a smic or fmic, so either way I think your basically at the same point as far as flow goes but clocking the cover takes custom work where as jpipes & ic pipes to join up to them are mass produced.

DSMunknown · Feb 13, 2007

daren_p said:
I do not disagree that an abrupt 180 deg bend after a straight length of pipe will have a negative effect on flow but Im not so sure a jpipe has the same effect your talking about. A jpipe is not so much of an abrupt turn & it isn't coming of a nice straight piece of pipe. It's coming directly off a comp cover which already has the air flowing in a radial direction. If you clock the cover you still aren't going to have a direct route to either a smic or fmic, so either way I think your basically at the same point as far as flow goes but clocking the cover takes custom work where as jpipes & ic pipes to join up to them are mass produced.

I have been thinking about what you have said. It seems to me that if we were to get into a discussion of thermodynamics and such, it would be a very lengthly but overall informative discussion.

So my question is this - Who has the responsibility to prove their statements about what has been said thus far?

Taking your inference about "air flowing in a radial direction", perhaps one could argue that you believe that a LICP should look something like the straw below because the air is already changing directions in the compressor housing.

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But I know you don't believe that. That is absurd.

So before we get into a lengthly discussion, perhaps we should clarify any terms and theories we will be using in this discussion for everyone else.

I do not wish to simplify the complicated inner workings of a turbocharger, but isn't it "enough" to say that airflow ideally flows when there are a minimal number of bends/restrictions/obstructions overall? Or is this too simplistic for your liking?

99gst_racer · Feb 13, 2007

PieEyedPiper - TRE used to do the downfiring mod back in the day to 14b's and mostly 16G turbos:

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sd_ff22 · Feb 13, 2007

Wow.
if someone didn't take more than a glance, that almost looks like a t-25!

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Any way to make a 14b into a downfiring turbo..instead of up?

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