SERIOUS HELP NEEDED!!...my car wont run on all 4 cylinders once reved even in neutral

jjbrasil · Feb 20, 2005

like the title says....my car has been like this for about 2 months now and i really need to get this fixed because i am unable to drive it :confused:

ive tried just about everything and i really dont trust any shops around here to get it fixed.
But anyways.. im able to start up the car just fine and it will idle perfect and run just fine "warming up".....i can rev it up a little bit and everything is great....but just as soon as i rev the engine past 3.5rpm's and once the rev's drops it like goes into this almost :limp mode: and will spit, sputter and only run on 2 cylinders and will continue to run like this and if i do not feather the gas it will stall out, this also is not even driving and building any boost, its just sitting in nuetral. Im NOT getting CEL either!! the things i have checked and replaced are!
-Injector resistor pack
-02 sensor
-coolant temp sensor
-swapped a ecu
-swapped power transistor
-swapped maf sensor
-i Re-Timed the t-belt cuz it was off a tooth
-swapped crank angle sensor
-cas i tested and cleaned
-swapped different 450's and FPR
-compression is ok
-all sensors are plugged in
If anybody can help me out that would be so much of help!! thanks in advance :thumb:

GTM · Apr 6, 2005

jjbrasil said:
ill try and get ahold of some different lifters, but this compression guage that i borrowed is a Snap on compression tester and is def an "accurate tester"

One of my 15 year old Snap-On's was low by 25lbs but at least I knew it.

So at least we can rule that out Do the feeler gage test _after_ you have the failure, you will have to do _all_ the valves. You must know if this is it, then worry about cleaning or replacing.

Cheers,
GTM

GTM · Apr 6, 2005

dave99gst said:
I went over and took a quick look at the car hoping it would be somthing really stupid and a extra set of eyes would be able to spot it. in the 10 min i spend in the driveay with no tools.. its seen like somthing electrical is messed up. ( prob sumthing really stupid to)
The car started and ran fine.... then after a few revs it started to stumble and miss REALLY bad. while it was running in this manor, i pulled the injector harness of the #2 ( i think thats the one i did ) injector with totaly NO CHANGE to how the car ran.
After shuting the car off for a few min, and re-starting it - it again ran fine untill it was rev'd multiple times.

Hi Dave:

I am really convinced the hydraulic adjusters are screwing up _IF_ we can believe the compression readings are changing from one time to the next. The fact that when you rev it up you build oil pressure and the adjusters extend and don't allow clearance.

You probably could take all the bolts out off the VC and just hold it down, then start and run until you get the failure. Pop the cover off and just wiggle the followers with the lobes up if you don't have a feeler gage.

Cheers,
GTM

jjbrasil · Apr 9, 2005

well today i got some lifters from my freind that he had laying around, swapped those and Nothing changed...compression with it runnin for about 1 min (cuz it didnt want to run good) was 170 - 160 - 170 -70...hmm something is def wrong with that 1st cylinder

I did a leak down test and i could hear air comin out of the TB when i opened it, couldnt really feel or hear any air comin from the valve cover, no bubbles in the coolant, and exhaust i couldnt hear anything out my exhaust.

ONE THING that i def noticed is b4 i changed the lifters right as i would get to TDC rotating it by hand with a wrench and if i let it stop right at TDC and then try and push it clockwise it was SOOO hard and sometimes i couldnt even move it!!! seriuosly it was that hard.... but now after changing my lifters and runnin the car a little bit i noticed that that went away and it DOESNT get ruff when i get to tdc, i can just push with some force of course right past the marks...

could maybe my lifters cause my valves to float or stay open a smidge to long and possibly nicked em? i konw b4 when i skipped teeth on my t belt i had 0 compression totally but is this a possibility cuz i mean i was getting air through my TB.? :confused:

GTM you know your stuff, is this possible?

GTM · Apr 10, 2005

jjbrasil said:
...

ONE THING that i def noticed is b4 i changed the lifters right as i would get to TDC rotating it by hand with a wrench and if i let it stop right at TDC and then try and push it clockwise it was SOOO hard and sometimes i couldnt even move it!!! seriuosly it was that hard.... but now after changing my lifters and runnin the car a little bit i noticed that that went away and it DOESNT get ruff when i get to tdc, i can just push with some force of course right past the marks...

could maybe my lifters cause my valves to float or stay open a smidge to long and possibly nicked em? i konw b4 when i skipped teeth on my t belt i had 0 compression totally but is this a possibility cuz i mean i was getting air through my TB.? GTM you know your stuff, is this possible?

If I may, always report compression in the cylr order 1234, these are standard conventions. It would appear that with all the activity that you have bumped a valve either with piston or with an exhaust valve. The only way this can happen is by cam timing being off or as I've indicated that at least one adjuster had held the valve open. You had so many occasions which you reported 0 compression on different cylrs it had to be cam timing or adjusters. You can run it the way it is and see if the valve will straighten it's self or you can pull the head and replace.

The fact it was so hard to turn before you swapped out the adjusters says you were fouling valves, again 1 of 3 conditions existed, the intake cam was too far advanced, the valve stem was bent, or the adjuster was extended too far.

Didn't I tell you to check with feeler gauge when the lobe was up?? If it were bent you would have had lots of clearance, if adjuster was too high you would have had 0 clearance and the valve would have been partly open.

That's my take on it, my vote would be to replace the bent valve(s) but that means pulling the head.

Cheers,
GTM

hovis4cyl · Apr 13, 2005

As soon as I saw that video I thought an stuck hydrolic lifter or stuck/bent valve. That rattle reminded my of my 1990 eclipse that had 225,000 mile on a stock head/engine. The lifters would stick and rattle all the time. Until it got up to operating temp or I revved it up to get some oil in them. Stuck lifter = stuck open valve which ='s low compression and air pumping out of your intake manifold. Visa versa if it's a exhaust valve sticking.

Here's a sugguestion.. Once it starts running crappy take the oil fill cap off. See if there is a lot of pressure. If for some reason there is a lot of pressue buildup and ur Pcv isn't working couldn't this starve the head of some much needed oil?? Because if this is the case when you first start the engine there is not any pressure, after is runs a little while it might be building up and then starving the head of oil.. Just a wild idea.

My 99 eclipse was making the same noise as your car but not nearly as drastic. It had a slight rough idle and some annoying lifter tap (engine was 120,000k). As soon as i removed the oil fill cap lifter tap quit and idle fixed itself.. I then realized my PCV valve was junk. I replaced it and it fixed it right up.

That's just my noobie opinion.. Sometimes the simplest things are the tricky ones.

Keep us posted on what happens

jjbrasil · Apr 16, 2005

well i tried your suggestion and unfortunatly nothing helped

thanks though for the advice.

I was able to get ahold of a logger and nothing seemed out of the ordinary, o2's were boucing around like they should at idle, coolant temp was accurate, tps was accurate, timing advance was about what my freinds 96tsi was. NOID LIGHTS were lighting up when it ran bad, had spark when it ran bad :confused:

only think left is compression!!!

I am going to be taking it into a shop asap and i will keep u guys posted as soon as i figure out this whole mess...thanks a lot :thumb:

GTM · Apr 16, 2005

jjbrasil said:
well i tried your suggestion and unfortunatly nothing helped thanks though for the advice.

I was able to get ahold of a logger and nothing seemed out of the ordinary, o2's were boucing around like they should at idle, coolant temp was accurate, tps was accurate, timing advance was about what my freinds 96tsi was. NOID LIGHTS were lighting up when it ran bad, had spark when it ran bad only think left is compression!!!

I am going to be taking it into a shop asap and i will keep u guys posted as soon as i figure out this whole mess...thanks a lot

It would help if we knew who your were talking to and what advice failed you...

Cheers,
GTM

jjbrasil · Apr 16, 2005

hovis4cyl said:
Here's a sugguestion.. Once it starts running crappy take the oil fill cap off. See if there is a lot of pressure. If for some reason there is a lot of pressue buildup and ur Pcv isn't working couldn't this starve the head of some much needed oil?? Because if this is the case when you first start the engine there is not any pressure, after is runs a little while it might be building up and then starving the head of oil.. Just a wild idea.

I was refurring to hovis4cyl as he gave me that suggestion but unfortunatly it didnt work.

GTM · Apr 17, 2005

jjbrasil said:
hovis4cyl said:
...
If for some reason there is a lot of pressue buildup and ur Pcv isn't working couldn't this starve the head of some much needed oil?? Because if this is the case when you first start the engine there is not any pressure, after is runs a little while it might be building up and then starving the head of oil.. Just a wild idea.

I was refurring to hovis4cyl as he gave me that suggestion but unfortunatly it didnt work.
Click to expand...

There is no way that you could build enough blow-by pressure to influence the lube oil pressure for every seal and probably gaskets would be leaking oil badly.

Cheers,
GTM

jjbrasil · Apr 22, 2005

i had my freinds dad who is a mechanic take a look at it and he said i have no choice but to pull the head off.

Previously the last time i pulled the head off i had these marks on cylinder 3 and 4 pistons and also on the cylinder head.....well now this time after pulling the head i have these marks on ALL of the cylinders!!!!?

Im gonna get ahold of my friends dad soon but does anybody have any ideas of what this could be??

jjbrasil · Apr 22, 2005

here is a closer up pic..im gonna try and getta pic of the cylinder marks too

jjbrasil · Apr 22, 2005

here is the cylinder head pic.

GTM · Apr 22, 2005

jjbrasil said:
here is the cylinder head pic.

How long has this engine been sitting without running? That is rust from water puddling in the cylinders. You have a problem, where is water getting into the engine? At this point the rings may be rusted in the pistons and will need replacing.

You should have seen water/rust on the spark plugs unless this came after the last time the engine ran. Do you have water injection?

Cheers,
GTM

GTM · Apr 23, 2005

GTM said:
How long has this engine been sitting without running? That is rust from water puddling in the cylinders. You have a problem, where is water getting into the engine? At this point the rings may be rusted in the pistons and will need replacing.

You should have seen water/rust on the spark plugs unless this came after the last time the engine ran. Do you have water injection?

Wait, stop, hold the presses. Is that your light and camera playing tricks and yellowing certain colors. I used VuePrint to view the picts again and now see what look to be hundreds of very sharp dents in the pistons and cylr head. Had this engine been laying on first one side and then the other with the plugs out where rain water collected.

If those are sharp dents like it swallowed a valve keeper then why don't I see them in other areas? I do see a lot of rust on the block not covered by the gasket. Maybe you can take some more picts by daylight, you might ask Dave to come take a look as long as it's not an imposition on him. We have been going round and round with this and I'm feeling so incompetent for it's just one thing after another. Zero compression one moment and 170 the next, there is just so much that I can contribute from sitting at my computer.

Is that a hole I see in your stainless steel water pipe?

If for some reason that is little droplets of a clear honey like fluid, this is caused by combustion and a porosity in the aluminum where acid build-up inside tiny pockets will produce a salt of aluminum.

BTW why did your friend's dad say you _have_ to take the head off again? You did that after this thread started without saying a word and now you have done it again. What did he hear and know that has not been shared or truly is this a case where a million words could never have guessed what the problem was. I'm out of ideas and something isn't adding up, had Dave not come over I would have started to think this was a mean spirited spoof taking advantage of peoples sympathies like the world famous "Beckey" who I uncovered many years ago. He/she was such a put on that AOL and Interpol were involved in the ruse.

If your pistons are above block deck and too close to the head I would expect some problem. ...?

Cheers,
GTM

jjbrasil · Apr 23, 2005

how can a valve keeper go through the valve? it would stay in the upper end of the head wouldnt it?

Nope thiers not a hole in the water pipe, sorry sometimes pics can make crap look wierd.

he came over just to make sure i was doing everything correctly and which i was, compression test results were low, leakdown was through the TB and exhaust like i said b4 and he just wanted to just be able to see it. and no im not makin anything up dont worry everybody ive talked to about my problem is just as stumped as me :confused:

My freinds dad is gonna take a look at the head asap but he sorta thinks maybe the seats are bad cuz he said thier factory pressed in and thiers a chance of them being able to come out. its not for certain but its an idea because of the wierd comperession readings and such.

GTM · Apr 23, 2005

jjbrasil said:
how can a valve keeper go through the valve? it would stay in the upper end of the head wouldnt it?

Nope thiers not a hole in the water pipe, sorry sometimes pics can make crap look wierd.

he came over just to make sure i was doing everything correctly and which i was, compression test results were low, leakdown was through the TB and exhaust like i said b4 and he just wanted to just be able to see it. and no im not makin anything up dont worry everybody ive talked to about my problem is just as stumped as me

My freinds dad is gonna take a look at the head asap but he sorta thinks maybe the seats are bad cuz he said thier factory pressed in and thiers a chance of them being able to come out. its not for certain but its an idea because of the wierd comperession readings and such.

I was not saying a keeper had come out, but one had gotten lost previously and make it's way into the engine. They make very sharp cuts in the aluminum unlike say nuts which will get rounded corners. That's not the case here for these looked sharp but had not damaged the central part of the piston or cylr head.

Can you explain what we are seeing in the pictures? Is that rust in the cylrs? When antifreeze leaks into them it doesn't rust so it's fresh water (rain water?). Did you have the plugs out, the hood up, and a hard rain? But that doesn't explain why it's on both sides of the cylr??

When I zoomed in on that spot it looks like a rust hole. I do note the top of the block not covered by the head gasket is badly rusted and wondered what the rest of the block looked like under the gasket.

I've not seen a loose seat in 30 years when I worked for VW but that could be a possibility, I had mentioned loose guides but failed to remember seats could cause a similar condition. They can be hard to spot if they fall back into the head but you might see the deposits around them have been disturbed. It's been my experience this comes from a major overheat but then you see galling on the cylr walls.

You had a valve job done and they pressure checked the head ... yes??

It will be an unfortunate situation if they missed loose seats for it does happen. I remember grinding seats and have one start to spin in the hole, I had completely missed it on inspection. This could mean your head is junk and will have to be replaced, it just depends on how much damaged there is to the bored hole and the availability of replacements.

Cheers,
GTM

jjbrasil · Apr 25, 2005

So i took the head over to my freinds dad and we took a look at it, we were able to spot a small piece of steal in one of the cuts in the cylinder head and we put a magnet to it to find out it was magnetic (steal), its hard to tell what that piece is from but that lets us know something steal is bouncing around of some sort and now we have to rule out what could make its way into a cylinder made of steal.

sorry the picture sorta makes it look like rust but its not rusted at all.

I am going to def need to get my valves cut again cuz they are leaking a little but i need to find out what is causing these slashes. I also recall when i first got the head back (the first time) on and started it up it ran perfect after the head job. i could have let it idle all day long but as soon as i reved it up thier is when the engine went crap on me.....so if ya can think of anything logical as to what could be happening please let me know cuz ive been trying to come up with something myself.

The last thing i need is to get my valves cut and then go bad again cuz of the stuff making these marks :coy:

GTM · Apr 25, 2005

jjbrasil said:
...
sorry the picture sorta makes it look like rust but its not rusted at all.
...
so if ya can think of anything logical as to what could be happening please let me know cuz ive been trying to come up with something myself.

The last thing i need is to get my valves cut and then go bad again cuz of the stuff making these marks

Any chance you could get a close ups? I don't see any damage in the center of the pistons which is not making any sense to me. When hard things bounce around inside combustion chamber they knock carbon off valves and I don't see that has happened.

I've seen spark plugs break and they will make a few sharp cuts but then quickly get rounded and pass out the exhaust valve. Correct me if I am wrong, these look like sharp gouges around the edges where the piston would be closest to the cylr head but nothing in the center?????

There are only 2 things I've seen make any kind of marks around the edges but _never_ sharp like these appear to be. Leaking head gaskets and/or pre-ignition.

Was it just those 2 pistons? Had there been water in the cylrs?

Cheers,
GTM

jjbrasil · Apr 25, 2005

Tomorrow when its day light ill get some better pics but thier is NO damage anywere else on the piston, its only in that certain area were the piston matches to the cylinder head. I totally agree too if something were to fly in wouldnt it make marks all over? like u were saying.

Yes u are correct these are sharpe gouges that u see, and like i was saying, im gonna get some better pics tomorrow when i have time. what do u mean by...Was it just those 2 pistons? Had there been water in the cylrs?

psychlow · Apr 25, 2005

This is truly one of the strangest threads I have ever seen on this board.

GTM, I applaud you for your patience and your continued assistance to brasil - admirable, even for a Wiseman.

I am completely at a loss for what could cause damage to only the top and bottom edges of the pistons on all of the cylinders, except for the valves themselves, but it doesn't sound like the valves were damaged badly. They seem to usually hit more in the center, also.

GTM, do you think that preignition could have caused that, even in neutral with close to no load?

brasil, how does your turbine wheel look? Any nicks our gouging from foreign objects in the exhaust?

jjbrasil · Apr 25, 2005

yes that is true...i thank GTM for sticking in here greatly :thumb:

I pulled the turbo off today and i couldnt see any damage to both wheels but im gonna pull the compressor housing off to ensure thier is no damage. I also dont understand either why thier is only damage in just those certain spots :confused:

psychlow · Apr 25, 2005

When you pull the compressor housing, also pull the turbine housing. If the material was small enough, it may not have caused marks on the part of the wheel visible from the outside.

GTM · Apr 26, 2005

psychlow said:
This is truly one of the strangest threads I have ever seen on this board.

GTM, I applaud you for your patience and your continued assistance to brasil - admirable, even for a Wiseman.

I am completely at a loss for what could cause damage to only the top and bottom edges of the pistons on all of the cylinders, except for the valves themselves, but it doesn't sound like the valves were damaged badly. They seem to usually hit more in the center, also.

GTM, do you think that preignition could have caused that, even in neutral with close to no load?

brasil, how does your turbine wheel look? Any nicks our gouging from foreign objects in the exhaust?

I'm intrigued for it's given me a good run for my money. There are very few things that I have not seen happen to an engine, just comes from the tens of thousands of cars I've worked on. I've seen people/mechanics leave things in the intake manifold, I've seen dirty tricks where a so called friend or co-worker has thrown something into the intake. Only a couple of times where some thing came apart and a screw or nut was ingested.

I've seen pistons and cylinder heads which sweated a lot from the pores in the aluminum getting clogged and like popcorn would explode and knock tiny chips out of the aluminum. But these don't leave sharp edges like pieces of shrapnel sticking up. I've seen piston rings break and then work their way out the top but then everything is hammered.

As for the preignition I can't say I've seen this at idle no load, I suppose it's possible especially if you have too much advance and a lean condition. If you have lean adjusted the idle rich on a carb you know it just slows down and runs ragged. I'm trying to think where an ECU could be imposing more advance and trying to compensate with extended fuel injection to keep the idle speed but this isn't computing in my head.

If we go back to the hydraulic adjuster hanging open is there any evidence the valves and pistons met? These hanging slightly open could cause a lean condition. Maybe I had better go back and listen to your AV file now it's apart.

You guys are welcome, I'll take a virtual beer when it's solved.

Cheers,
GTM

jjbrasil · Apr 26, 2005

Thier is no sign of the valves and pistons meeting because it would be more twords the middle wouldnt it? i had a talon years ago bend valves and it didnt look anything like this.

The valves though in cylinder 1 which had consistant low compression are leaky becuase we checked for that so how in the world can that happen when i just had my head all redone and the valves all cut? :confused:

something is causing something to mess the valves and so on.

Here is a better picture i tried getting that shows the gouges a little better.

GTM · Apr 26, 2005

jjbrasil said:
Thier is no sign of the valves and pistons meeting because it would be more twords the middle wouldnt it? i had a talon years ago bend valves and it didnt look anything like this.

The valves though in cylinder 1 which had consistant low compression are leaky becuase we checked for that so how in the world can that happen when i just had my head all redone and the valves all cut? something is causing something to mess the valves and so on.

Here is a better picture i tried getting that shows the gouges a little better.

I agree it doesn't look like piston/valve has hit but you must carefully inspect.
.........

Something definitely has gone into the cylr bounced around, escaped back out the intake valve, migrated to the adjacent cylr and then made it's way into the exhaust. It was fairly small maybe the size of a spark plug ground electrode, maybe a piece of cotter pin. You must inspect the intake manifold to ensure it's not inside there. Take a close look at the turbo exhaust wheel, all you need to see is 1 or more nicks, depending on how hard you want to find the piece the exhaust can be removed.

Inspect all the valves and seats of the cylrs involved, you may get away with just lapping them in or they may be ground again.

Sequence of events theory:
I'm only guessing that when you would rev the engine, the piece would get trapped between the valve and seat holding the valve open. The hydraulic adjuster does it's thing and now adjusts the lash to the new distance between the cam follower and cam. The floater moves to a new location but the adjuster doesn't collapse instantly hence all the rattling valve lash noise. Given time the adjuster did it's duty and would correctly adjust that's why it would start and run fine because the piece was sitting on top of the piston quietly waiting for you to blip the throttle before it sprang to life.

You will need to spend an hour or or 2 peening all the eruptions back down. If you have a 6"-9" ball peen hammer so much the better otherwise use sides, ends and corners of sockets to coax them back down. 10mm-17mm deep well will probably work best, you can add a 3" extension for some more mass. Use a drill motor soft wire brush to go over your work so you can see your progress. I think you will find about 2 blows per second will be just about right, this will give you some idea of the force you need to apply vs the mass of the socket and it's affect on the damage. This way you have forged the piston and head in those areas and will have no sharp edges. If you sand them you loose mass and increase the cc of that cylinder. You probably can get it so it never will be seen. Don't be in a hurry, consider it therapy and a chance to reflect on what went wrong. A year from now it will all meld together and you can laugh about it while mildly cursing and kicking tires.

You may find if you put an old head gasket back on when working close to the edges you will be less likely to hit the top corner of the cylr, if you do use a file and dress it back down.

Any questions??

Cheers,
GTM

The Central Hub for DSM Community and Information

SERIOUS HELP NEEDED!!...my car wont run on all 4 cylinders once reved even in neutral

jjbrasil

GTM

GTM

jjbrasil

GTM

hovis4cyl

jjbrasil

GTM

jjbrasil

GTM

jjbrasil

Attachments

jjbrasil

Attachments

jjbrasil

Attachments

GTM

GTM

jjbrasil

GTM

jjbrasil

GTM

jjbrasil

psychlow

jjbrasil

psychlow

GTM

jjbrasil

Attachments

GTM

Similar threads

Latest posts

Build Thread Updates

Vendor Updates

Latest Classifieds