Fire extinguisher

[snowborder714]

There's been a decent amount of discussion about fire extinguishers on here recently, and I have been doing my own research on them for a lot longer, so I figured I'd start an info thread. My thought process will be purchasing one geared towards SCCA/NASA rules (hence the location of this thread), but any general discussion would be great.

From my research, this is what I have found out.

A dry chemical ABC extinguisher will work on a budget, but will leave a terrible mess to clean up. I've also read they're pretty nasty if you're down wind and happen to breathe any of it in.

Halon is much less messy and leaves no residue. It comes out of the bottle as a gas. It is harmful to the atmosphere though (destructive to the ozone layer). It has since been banned internationally, but you can still purchase these extinguishers.

FE-36 is the "green" replacement for Halon. It performs the same, but costs less in some cases. It can be used anywhere a Halon 1211 is required. This unit comes out more as a liquid than a gas, is easy to clean up, and does not have any effects on paint.

Halotron 1 is another type I found, and these are to be used anywhere a Halon 1211 is required (since Halon is being phased out for environmental purposes). This unit comes out more as a liquid than a gas, is easy to clean up, and does not have any effects on paint.

Aqueous Film Forming Foam (AFFF) is another option. This is a water-based soapy solution, and does require some clean up. With it being water based though, you can just rinse the residue off. These are supposedly very popular in Europe and one of (if not, the) only FIA approved units. AFFF units need to be serviced every 2 years (unless it's not pressurized before activation). This can be anywhere from $100 to $300, assuming everything is passes and nothing will need replaced.





NASA rules.

Fire Extinguisher

All cars without a fire system should have at least a fire extinguisher securely mounted inside within driver’s reach while normally seated, belts fastened and steering wheel in place. The bracket should be metal and of the quick release type. The mounting hardware should be nuts and bolt and not just sheet metal screws. Fire bottles made of plastic or aerosol-type cans are prohibited.

The following chemicals are allowed:
Halon 1301, 1211, or Halotron I, hexafluoropropane, HFC-236a, CC0610, FE-36, two (2) pounds minimum; ABC dry chem., two (2) pound minimum; 10BC potassium bicarbonate (Purple K) or sodium bicarbonate; or 1A10BC multipurpose, ammonium phosphate and barium sulfate or Monnex. All fire bottles should have a gauge indicating their charge status. Any bottle without a gauge should be weighed to determine content. Once a bottle has been even slightly discharged it should be replaced or refilled.

Fire System

It is highly recommended that a fire system be installed (required on some cars, as specified in class rules). An on-board system uses lines routed through the car with a single actuator to engage in case of emergency. An on-board system shall use Halon 1301, 1211, or Halotron I, hexafluoropropane, HFC-236a, CC0610, FE-36, five (5) pound minimum, with a minimum of two (2) nozzles (one (1) in cockpit and one (1) in engine bay) with manual or auto release. Other agents in SFI certified systems are acceptable. Systems may also use AFFF material (e.g. SPA Lite, ZERO 2000, Coldfire 302) 2.25 liter minimum. If such a system is used, the appropriate atomizing nozzles shall be used. All AFFF internally pressurized system bottles shall use a working pressure gauge. All AFFF bottles shall be marked with the recommended “filled weight.” All system cylinders should be securely mounted with bolts. On-board systems may also use CEA614 provided that the lines and nozzles are replaced as per the manufacturer’s (3M) instructions.

Fire Extinguisher / System Required Decal

All cars must display one (1) “E” decal on the outside of the vehicle identifying the location of the fire extinguisher. The decal should be placed closest to the entry point of the vehicle where the fire extinguisher is most accessible from the outside. This decal indicates to someone assisting the driver where the easiest access point is located. Car builders should give careful consideration to this item. On vehicles with fire systems, one (1) decal is required at the release button, as well as and one (1) on the outside of the vehicle.

SCCA rules.

A hand-held fire extinguisher adhering to the following standards is highly recommended:

1. Halon 1301 or 1211; 2-pound minimum capacity by weight.
2. Dry chemical; 2-pound minimum with a positive indicator showing charge. Chemical: 10BC UL rated – potassium bicarbonate (Purple K) recommended; 1A-10BC UL rated multipurpose – ammonium phosphate and barium sulfate or Monnex.
3. The fire extinguisher shall be securely mounted in the cockpit. All mounting brackets shall be metal and of the quick-release type.

One thing a rally racer brought up is that their rules require a 10-B:C unit. Here is some more info on what the UL rating is and how to read it.

The Underwriters Laboratories rate fire extinguishing capacity in accordance with UL/ANSI 711: Rating and Fire Testing of Fire Extinguishers. The ratings are described using numbers preceding the class letter, such as 1-A:10-B:C. The number preceding the A multiplied by 1.25 gives the equivalent extinguishing capability in gallons of water. The number preceding the B indicates the size of fire in square feet that an ordinary user should be able to extinguish. There is no additional rating for class C, as it only indicates that the extinguishing agent will not conduct electricity, and an extinguisher will never have a rating of just C.

Here's a good link that describes a bunch of different extinguisher types, as well as they're proper and intended uses.
Choosing the right fire extinguisher


And if you want to check prices on some of these, here's some links.
HalGuard Halotron 1 2.5 lb.
Ansul CleanGuard FE-36 2.5 lb.
Halon 1211 2.5 lb.

Obviously you want to get the largest one you can afford and safely mount/secure.




I am looking for one that can be mounted by a metal quick release bracket at the base of the passenger's seat (hopefully to move with the seat, so as to easily retain that functionality). This should allow easy access for me, a passenger, or someone on a track that can get to it by opening the door or reaching in the open window.

I have been leaning towards the FE-36, but just found the Halotron 1 the other day, so I plan on looking into that one as well. I would rather not get a Halon 1211 unit because of the harm it causes, but if price and availability is better, then I'll have to really consider it. I'm not a "tree hugger" but would rather not harm what I don't have to.

 

[clean96GST]

Thanks!

 

[Friend-O]

For the general DSM'er a ABC is good enough to save your precious baby. Messy and possibly causes cancer but considering the hours of work and the possibility of picking up smoking from a nervous breakdown due to total car loss to fire, The extinguisher seems the lesser of two evils.

 

[Scott McIntyre]

I have a 2.5 lb extinguisher mounted in the passenger foot well. I just stuck a piece of wood behind the carpet and screwed the mount into that. It's not going anywhere without taking the whole carpet with it.

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I'm glad I have it as it saved my car once already...

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[snowborder714]

What type do you have Scott?

 

[Scott McIntyre]

Garrison Dry Chemical General Purpose. It made a nice mess.

 

[TRSblader]

I used nearly the exact same setup in my Talon and Honda. I mounted mine behind the passenger seat in the honda but slightly under the seat to hide it a little. The Talon had it sitting out in the open right behind the center console. I'm sure both locations would be frowned upon, but my tracks and the road while daily driving aren't so strict. Never had to use it, but when I first installed both I made sure I could get to them easily and unhook them quickly if needed for myself or another vehicle. It was dry chemical as well, but I'd rather be alive and have a messy car to clean than be sizzled inside of it.

I think with the next cleanup phase I am going to try to comply with the rules a little better.

 

[master jared]

fire extinguishers are like car insurance there for rich people but always nice to have

 

[kainam00]

fire extinguishers are like car insurance there for rich people but always nice to have

fire extinguishers are like car insurance, they are for rich people, but always nice to have

^ Fixed. This is how I understood it, not sure if that's what you meant or not

You can get an extinguisher for $20. They aren't expensive at all.

I don't think it was mentioned in the first post, but there are also different kinds of chemicals in the dry chemical extinguishers. Copy and pasted from wikipedia -

* Ammonium phosphate, also known as "tri-class", "multipurpose" or "ABC" dry chemical, used on class A, B, and C fires. It receives its class A rating from the agent's ability to melt and flow at 177 °C (350 °F) to smother the fire. More corrosive than other dry chemical agents. Pale yellow in color.
* Sodium bicarbonate, "regular" or "ordinary" used on class B and C fires, was the first of the dry chemical agents developed. It interrupts the fire's chemical reaction, and was very common in commercial kitchens before the advent of wet chemical agents, but now is falling out of favor, as it is much less effective than wet chemical agents for class K fires, less effective than Purple-K for class B fires, and is ineffective on class A fires. White or blue in color.
* Potassium bicarbonate (aka Purple-K), used on class B and C fires. About two times as effective on class B fires as sodium bicarbonate, it is the preferred dry chemical agent of the oil and gas industry. The only dry chemical agent certified for use in ARFF by the NFPA. Violet in color.
* Potassium bicarbonate & Urea Complex (aka Monnex), used on Class B and C fires. More effective than all other powders due to its ability to decrepitate (where the powder breaks up into smaller particles) in the flame zone creating a larger surface area for free radical inhibition.
* Potassium Chloride, or Super-K dry chemical was developed in an effort to create a high efficiency, protein-foam compatible dry chemical. Developed in the 60s, prior to Purple-K, it was never as popular as other agents since being a salt, it was quite corrosive. For B and C fires, white in color.
* Foam-Compatible, which is a sodium bicarbonate (BC) based dry chemical, was developed for use with protein foams for fighting class B fires. Most dry chemicals contain metal stearates to waterproof them, but these will tend to destroy the foam blanket created by protein (animal) based foams. Foam compatible type uses silicone as a waterproofing agent, which does not harm foam. Effectiveness is identical to regular dry chemical, and it is light green in color (some ANSUL brand formulations are blue). This agent is generally no longer used since most modern dry chemicals are considered compatible with synthetic foams such as AFFF.
* MET-L-KYL is a specialty variation of sodium bicarbonate for fighting pyrophoric liquid fires (ignite on contact with air). In addition to sodium bicarbonate, it also contains silica gel particles. The sodium bicarbonate interrupts the chain reaction of the fuel and the silica soaks up any unburned fuel, preventing contact with air. It is effective on other class B fuels as well. Blue/Red in color.

 

[UnsafeAtAnySpd]

I have the first one in my V that you linked to (the chrome version though) mounted to my passenger seat like you plan to do.

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[Project2G]

My buddy Tom's caught fire in front of me. Oil line slipped off the 50 trim and burned on the side of the freeway way in Cali. There was nothing we could do until a CHP showed up and gave us the extinguisher (not sure what type).

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Him after it got towed back.. Oh and he had no insurance.. The car was later parted out..

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[knochgoon24]

I have one of those $15 ABC ones in my car. It's in the trunk since I often have passenger(s) in my car, sometimes in both back seats.

 

[snowborder714]

My brother and I just ordered an Ansul FE-36 2.5 lb. extinguisher . We bought it from Baker's but had them price match to Aminexus. It was a few bucks cheaper this way. It comes with a vehicle bracket that should meet the rules set by the racing sanctions.

We chose the FE-36 unit because of if being the newest type on the market, cleaner than a Halon one (which have been discontinued), and isn't scheduled to be discontinued/phased out like the Halotron 1 units are in 2015.

My brother found this image of an extinguisher mounted and we both like it. So we're going to try and make something based off of this to go on the passenger's seat.

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[turbosax2]

Here are the mounts my brother (snowborder714) and I came up with for our Ansul fire extinguishers.

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A buddy of ours, calan on the forums, made these for us based on our specifications.

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The brackets were bent with a sheet metal brake, and the "wings" were welded on the front corners. The wings were added for extra strength. In fact, Craig even ran FEA analysis plots after modeling different variations we came up with

Not our final revision, but a sample plot:

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A big chunk of the bracket was cut out to reduce weight (does not significantly affect strength of bracket). We drilled our own holes in the brackets for a custom fit to each seat (the cloth on my brother's seat sticks out a bit further than my leather does, so my bracket was mounted back slightly farther).

Hardware:
(2) M6x1.0 flange button socket cap bolts
(2) M6 flat washers
(2) M6 locknuts
(2) M8x1.25x44mm bolts (12mm heads for clearance)
(2) M8 flat washers
(2) M8 lockwashers
(2) 0.625" OD X 0.125" 6061-T6 Bare Drawn Aluminum Tube 0.80 inches

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Assembly is pretty straightforward. The spacers go between the bracket and the seat. The holes in the red bracket had to be drilled out slightly to fit the M6 bolts through. The .80" spacers could have been a little shorter, but they're a good fit as is. Really, there's just a bunch of places you have to keep an eye on clearances. The bottle/bracket slide along with the seat, and there are no clearance issues in the full range of the seat travel. Passenger's legs aren't bothered by the bottle since it's so close to the seat.

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This setup follows all rules listed above:
-Within driver’s reach while normally seated, belts fastened and steering wheel in place (although it is a stretch)
-The bracket should be metal and of the quick release type
-The mounting hardware should be nuts and bolt and not just sheet metal screws
-2.5lb bottle exceeds the 2lb. minimum

 

[97gst_spyder]

I like the mounting solution! Are you going to sell them?

 

[snowborder714]

We might, depending on how many people would be interested and if Craig has the time/resources to make them. I don't want to commit to something for him

 

[Calan]

...I don't want to commit to something for him

Why not... everyone else does.

The PC came out nice BTW.

 

[bmoha2]

Having had personal experience with this myself I think it's very important. 7 years ago I was taking my talon for a beat down run after putting in a few new parts. Hahn Racecraft upper ic pipes and a dejon intake. I'm in the middle of nowhere canyon carving and heavy volumes of smoke start coming out from under the hood and the clutch pedal falls to the floor. I pull over, pop the hood and have two foot tall flames in my face. I grab my dry chemical extinguisher from behind the passenger seat. It's a pretty big sucker 18" tall. I got it for free. Usually I just lay it on the floor behind my passenger seat and slide the passenger seat all the way back. It doesn't go anywhere. As soon as I put the fire out it restarts. I put it out once again. The new Hahn Racecraft pipes fit different than the stock ic pipes, of course are larger diameter and take a slightly different path than the stock ic pipes. The new ic pipe put pressure on the wiring harness pressing it against the back of the bracket that holds the main underhood fusebox. There's a sharp edge there and it cut thru the plastic overwrap and shorted. That same bracket also is an intermediate location between the stock hard clutch hydraulic line and my brand new fancy dancy stainless steel braided clutch line. I had bought the shortline kit that eliminates the rubber hose and resevoir that sits on the front of the tranny. When the wires shorted from being cut thru by the bracket it instantly vaporized about three and a half inches of cautch the clutch hydraulic fluid on fire. The short was still there that's why the fire restarted. I ran and got my toolbox from the back of the car and took off the positive battery lead and was able to put the fire out and keep it out. I called a towtruck for car fire. The towtruck driver said he was very surprised to see the relatively small amount of fire damage my car suffered. He said that anytime he had ever been called out to a car fire by tge time they got there there'd only be a husk of a burned out car left.
My insurance company totaled the car. Gave me a check for $7800. I bought the car back for $350. I rebuilt the wiring harness by hand soldering in new wires to replace each burned wire in the wiring harness. The plastic cover on tge bottom of the main underhood fusebox was a loss but the fusebox itself was undamaged. I modified that fusebox bracket so there is no longer a sharp edge there
gotta be careful when adding ss braided brake lines clutchlines etc. Sometimes you create a new path to ground.
I installed a "monster grounding kit" under the hood of the talon. I think it's 4ga. Just a bit more insurance.
No surprisingly it did fry my ecu. So I had to replace that with EPROM ecu and chip from keydrivers.
I think the only think I might suggest is not getting one of the little dinky fire extinguishers and at minimum get at least one of the foot tall canisters snowborder used. That little dinky fire extinguisher would have put out the fire the first time but not the second or third time and would have left me with charred ruins for a car.
Oh also I installed a moroso kill switch on the back of the car so I don't have to hunt for tools if something like this ever happens again

 

[black_gst]

id buy a bracket lmk if they become avaiable

 

[99gst_racer]

Very nice solution. Good work, guys.

I would have loved to have mine mounted there, but couldn't because my seat adjustment is right in front.

 

[TRSblader]

I'm liking the mounting solution. Looks very clean, almost like it was supposed to be there.

 

[snowborder714]

Looks very clean, almost like it was supposed to be there.

This is pretty much how we tackle any project on our cars. We want it to look clean and factory, even if it isn't.

 

[Tanro]

We still use halon system in the military. I guess they dont give a shit about the enviroment. All the new hummers we are getting have a halon system in them. But as I understand it, it will only work in an enclosed space. It literally draws the oxygen out of the air.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

I build Formula Mazda race cars and we install Lifeline Zero2000 systems in all the cars, from the UK. It uses the AFFF stuff, and I'm authorised to service Lifeline systems. The race cars use a mechanical pull handle system with 2 atomising nozzles, one pointed at the driver and one at the engine. I'm thinking of installing one of these in my car, they're surprisingly cheap (~$220 for the whole kit).

The only problem I see with one of these kits though, is if the fire starts from a different location (brake fluid catches a corner on fire etc) that the system wouldn't be effective in this case. Also, on a car with a hood (as opposed to an open-wheel car with only light bodywork covering an engine), it often happens that the driver doesn't know if there is an actual fire (or just smoke) in engine bay until the hood is opened (at which point you would be far away from the pull handle).

On the upside, the propellant is extremely effective, and having a pre-plummed system would allow you to put a fire out much faster than fiddling with seat harnesses, firebottle latch, hood latch/hood pins etc.

Hmm, maybe the handheld unit with a decent bracket is the better choice for us.

 

[crazytsiawd]

Sort of an old thread to reopen back up, but where online can you buy these at, cant seem to find any place that sells the fe-36