2G Brake Fade?

[DanaT]

Hi all,

How much brake fade, under hard use, will the 2G GSX experience? Are there any pads that will work well to combat this. Yes, I know that big brakes are the best solution but I can't do it (otherwise I would not have ended up with the DSM). The car is going on the boat next week to Europe and for the most part, it is VERY VERY difficult (or very expensive) to get non-stock parts approved for road use. That is why I ended up with a stock 2G GSX (that and snow) otherwise my other car would have been shipped there.

That said, one of the things I enjoy is the 'ring (Nuerburgring). I have been in some cars that make decent speed and it seems that track is VERY hard on brakes, even just a lap or two (the parking lot smells of fried brakes).

What can I do with a stock (or very near stock that wouldn't get noticed by governement inspectors since there was no GSX sold in Europe) to make the brakes able to handle a few laps at a time?

-Dana

 

[ACM]

For spirited street use, Porterfield R4S - RRE push Porterfield R4E pads for track use, and the (few) track DSMs I'm aware of all use R4E as well.

I never get over 70 when I'm racing so my first hand experience is useless

 

[tsiboosted]

As ACM already sais the Porterfield R4S are a good brake pad to sue. I personally run Hawk HP+ pads in the front and Hawk HPS pads in the rear. Having the GSX, you already have the dual piston calipers and with some good quality race pads, should feel no brake fade at all.

I run the combination I listed above throught my series and get 2 full events out of the front pads before they need to be changed. I have yet to expereince any brake fade. We race for 25 minutes as well and still nothing from brake fade. And that is put them through the ringer as well. I hope this helps.

 

[matthewdesigns]

You could get a set of stainless lines as well. They probably won't gather much attention by the inspectors, and are better than stock to boot.

I use Porterfield R4-S on the front and oem pads on the rear. The R4-S's really kicked the braking up another notch, resisting fade far better than stock pads, and they even seem to grip harder once they get a little hot. They are a lot dustier than other pads, but the trade off in performance is well worth it. Much better on twisty mountain roads than my last set of pads.

The R4-E's as mentioned are a track pad, and will really be hard on your rotors. However, you'd be better off with them on the 'Ring for sure. So why not get a couple sets of pads, and swap them before you want to run on the track? That's what a number of local guys do when they are racing their daily driver cars. You'll just need to bed the pads each time you swap them.

 

[ACM]

R4S will overheat and fade under autocross conditions, and track use is much more severe.

I can't imagine R4S surviving at the 'Ring, not with the tiny rotors a DSM has, the heat sink mass is just not there.

Stainless lines would have to be TUV approved - I'm sure they're available in Europe, I can't imagine US market suppliers would bother with that unless the lines originate in Europe.

 

[webconnect]

Brake fade is pretty evident, I have my stock gsx brake setup, and If I brake hard, it quickly fades. Going around the ring is a huge track, and I think it couldn't handle the first quarter. Frankly I would be scared coming to the end of the long stretch!

 

[Dallas J]

R4S will overheat and fade under autocross conditions, and track use is much more severe.

I can't imagine R4S surviving at the 'Ring, not with the tiny rotors a DSM has, the heat sink mass is just not there.

Stainless lines would have to be TUV approved - I'm sure they're available in Europe, I can't imagine US market suppliers would bother with that unless the lines originate in Europe.

If your fading RS4s in just auto-x conditions I would guess something is amiss. Are you dual driving it? If you are getting them that hot during any given run, then it can be pretty bad on the rotors when you stop (different cooling rates at the pad).

On back country roads I cant get them to fade even after a solid 30+ min sessions. I can see on a real track where youre pushing harder they wont last. Also Ive heard they tend to crumble when you over heat them.

 

[ACM]

If your fading RS4s in just auto-x conditions I would guess something is amiss. Are you dual driving it? If you are getting them that hot during any given run, then it can be pretty bad on the rotors when you stop (different cooling rates at the pad).

On back country roads I cant get them to fade even after a solid 30+ min sessions. I can see on a real track where youre pushing harder they wont last. Also Ive heard they tend to crumble when you over heat them.

Nothing's amiss, they just weren't up to the task as I got faster. I still run R4S in the rear as the temps reached are still within the range for R4S, but the fronts I had to switch, first to R4-1, and latterly to Carbotech Panther Plus.

I was able to fade R4S on the road under certain conditions - I switched to the PowerSlot big rotor kits front and rear, and the added heat sink mass solved the problem, allowing me to stay with the R4S compound. They do crumble when they're severely overheated - the edges of the pad material goes white and literally crumbles away.

I think that for lapping the 'Ring they would not withstand the temps reached - there are a number of slow turn approached from long straights, my guess is a GSX would have quite the head of steam when it reached the braking points - I would prefer to do my brake fade research under rather more benign conditions I've never been on the 'Ring, but R4S can't survive Mont Tremblant, and the 'Ring looks like a much harsher environment.

I really think R4E would be the most suitable of the pads I'm familiar with.

 

[everbruin]

carbotech panther+ (race pad) front and rear tracked well for me and are ok on the street, for 45+ F temps anyway. porterfield r4-s faded. whatever you get, also run 500+ deg high temp brake fluid!
note: the better/higher temp the pad, the more dust they tend to generate on your rims =(

 

[drivemusicnow]

Ahhh, the ring. quite the track, I had a great time driving it when I was over there.


For brake pads you have to run a fine line. Go to far towards a pure track only pad and the temps generated will have you going through rotors every trip to the ring, as well as creating issues with brake fluid. If you go with to much of a street pad, they'll fade and possibly fall apart.

If you go often, DEFINITELY invest in some castrol srf brakefluid. yes, it's 80$, but you really don't need to go through very much of it because the wet boiling point is so high as well that a quick bleed (1 pump/release) before you hit the track hard is all you need, versus bleeding the entire system every time.

I would second the R4-E recommendation. they'll take the heat, but the mu isn't high enough to really tear apart your rotors (get blanks, not slotted or drilled)

Pagid yellows are another great pad for the endurance requirement, but I highly doubt they make them for the DSM caliper.

OHHH, And add some ghetto brake ducts in place. 15$ at a hardware store should net you some dryer venting hose that works as a disposable brake duct system. put it on for the track, take it off for inspections.

 

[kanderson]

Yeah I know, kinda bringing this back from the dead, but I'm interested in this topic. I have hawk pads, ATE super blue fluid and ss braided stainless lines, and after about ten minutes of hard driving on some mountain roads my rotors were glowing white hot and my brakes were gone. The next day after a five minute autocross session my brakes were again smoking and pretty faded.

Anyway, my question is whether a harder compound track pad will keep the brakes cooler, or if it just works better even when the brakes are that hot? Will a good track pad keep working on glowing rotors? And how much of this type of abuse can a stock rotor take? Also, will slotted/drilled rotors stay cooler because of a larger surface area or will they just heat up faster because of less mass?

Lots of questions, but I really want to get my car out to Sears Point this summer and I want to make sure my brakes are up for the task

 

[tsiboosted]

This may be way off topic, but I am at a loss on how some people get brake fade that quickly. Now I know my car weighs less than most. But I run OEM GSX rotors, not slotted or drilled. Hawk HP+ fronts and Hawk HPS rears. I can run a set of pads 2 full events before they start to go. That is over 2 hours of all out braking on a road course and I have very, very little fade if any. I run Super Blue/Super Gold and SS lines. Never once have I felt uncomfortable with my brakes. And I feel pretty comfortable saying I am hell on my brakes when I use them. I try not to hit them that much as they slow you down But the fact remains, when I do get on them, I get on them hard and quickly.

Even on bigger tracks like Road Atlanta where the biggest braking zone is at the end of the back straight downhill going from 150+ mph to 40mph in 200 feet, the brakes hold up over a weekend event. All I can say is take advantage of downshifting during braking and that will help conserve your brakes as well. Heel toe FTW

Hawk makes good equipment, Carbotech makes good equipment. Either one of these would be a good choice for DSM's on track. Carbotech makes the following compounds for DSMS:

FWD & AWD

Bobcat1521
AX6
XP8
XP10
XP12
XP16

HERE is the link explaining what each compound is best suited for. I hope some of this information is helpful.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Eddie,

A lot of people burn up pads because they have not been racing for a while and tend to be on the brakes when they should not, they use the brakes when they dont need to.
Remember back in HPDEs about compressing braking zones and using the brakes the least amount as possible but with as much force up till the point before traction loss? (I know im crappy at explaining this in words ).

I have a problem with compressing my brakes zones so I would heat up my rotors and pads waaayyy too much, not a problem because I have a wilwood kit, but I cant imagine on stock rotors/pads.

 

[1LE]

I'm on the Porterfield R-4E now and they work great. Haven't managed to overheat them the way I used to the Carbotech Panthers. R-4E is also perfectly streetable too.

 

[tsiboosted]

Eddie,

A lot of people burn up pads because they have not been racing for a while and tend to be on the brakes when they should not, they use the brakes when they dont need to.
Remember back in HPDEs about compressing braking zones and using the brakes the least amount as possible but with as much force up till the point before traction loss? (I know im crappy at explaining this in words ).

I have a problem with compressing my brakes zones so I would heat up my rotors and pads waaayyy too much, not a problem because I have a wilwood kit, but I cant imagine on stock rotors/pads.

Hey, I'm glad you said it...I wanted to but I didnt know how people would take it when I would say..."Learn how to brake", you know?

I agree with you 1000% on that as well. The old adage of "Slow in, fast out" is the best thing I can tell people when I am intsrtucing them on course. Flying up to a corner then slamming the brakes is not how it is done. Thresh hold braking; all some are against it, is what I like to do and teach them in the begining. Not too many people can heel toe or even left foot brake properly as it is.

Main things I preech on setting up for a turn is this:

1. Get all downshifting and braking done in a straight line before you turn.
2. Slow in, fast out.
3. Look ahead to where you want to be, not the front of the car.
4. If you are in the turn and you realize you messed up, its too late. ALWAYS look ahead.
5. If anything, brake early as you can always come out with more exit speed. (see #2)

Proper braking is an art form. When done correctly, your times will drop drasticlly and your speeds will increase. And yes, I know for some that is hard to grasp. Braking will speed you up, but it is very true on a road course/auto-cross course. Not to mention save your equipment in the process.

 

[everbruin]

What hawk pads? There are many race ones but sadly not for 2g. that's why I went w/ carbotech.

Race pads work in higher temps, and the more mass/pad there is, the more it can act like a heat sink. 2g rotors are small so avoid drilled or slotted rotors which by nature have less mass and thus less heat ability.

Infineon isn't hard on brakes; thill is worse and laguna the worst [assuming same ambient temp].

 

[tsiboosted]

What hawk pads? There are many race ones but sadly not for 2g. that's why I went w/ carbotech.

Race pads work in higher temps, and the more mass/pad there is, the more it can act like a heat sink. 2g rotors are small so avoid drilled or slotted rotors which by nature have less mass and thus less heat ability.

Infineon isn't hard on brakes; thill is worse and laguna the worst [assuming same ambient temp].

I run Hawk HP+ (front) and HPS (rear). And as you said, I run solid faced rotors as well. I use to run slotted but they would get things lodged in the grooves/slots and really eat the rotor up fast. I did the AWD front brakes on my FWD and it helped allot with having bigger rotors, pads and 2 piston calipers. What Carbotechs are you running?

 

[TSiAWD666]

Carbotech Panthers in various forms have worked great for me on the track with the stock braking system in the past. ATE Super Blue was my fluid of choice back then with that set up. Never had any problems with fading during the 20 minute hpde sessions.

 

[everbruin]

like i said above, Panther+ [whose temp range is still streetable]. Hps isn't trackworthy even in rear; hp+ is a cheap upgrade. Hp+ front might be ok at Infineon on a cool day.

What Carbotechs are you running?

 

[UnsafeAtAnySpd]

I didn't see it anywhere in this thread, but don't go with drilled as they are apt to crack on the track.

Anyway, I want to keep this thread going as I'm about to start getting my Talon ready for track duty (hopefully NASA TT next year and then a transition into PT).

I don't really have a lot to add that's DSM specific, but currently on my CTS-V I'm running HP+ front/HPS rear with stainless lines, DOT 4 fluid and Titanium brake shims. I'm not sure if the later are available for stock DSM calipers but they should help with heat transfer. Also, you might want to look into brake ducting.

As for the HP+/HPS. This thread isn't the first time I've seen that DSM people recommend not to go with that set-up whereas this is the set-up most V HPDErs run. Weird.

 

[kanderson]

Awesome info from everyone, basically what I'm getting is that more mass is better because it absorbs more heat, so new rotors, new pads, and shims if possible will all help? And I have been looking at brake ducting, but it looks like it is kind of hard to fit a decent sized hose past the caliper.

I actually don't know what hawk pads I'm running so that might be my problem, I think I'm just going to go to a new pad, maybe Carbotechs or R4E's?

Also, about braking, its reasonable to assume that I don't know how to drive/brake, etc, and I'll be the first to admit that I'm definitely not the best. However, I grew up in a racing family, I have instructed at Jim Hall Kart Racing School for two summers, I've autocrossed my car for a year, I know about slow in fast out, threshold braking, trail braking etc, and I do heel and toe, so I at very least know the basics.

Another question I had was if the brakes will even get much hotter at a larger track. I know the brakes will heat up more during a single stop, but they also have more time to cool down in between stops...

Also, when I got my brakes glowing I was driving very fast down hill, which I'm sure had a large impact on temps. What I really need to do is go out and test for myself, but I'm just trying to get a head start here

 

[tsiboosted]

like i said above, Panther+ [whose temp range is still streetable]. Hps isn't trackworthy even in rear; hp+ is a cheap upgrade. Hp+ front might be ok at Infineon on a cool day.

I have heard many, many people say that yet I continue to have success with that combination on track on my car. Maybe I just get lucky in that department But again, I am pretty easy on the brakes even at large tracks like Barber, Road Atlanta, VIR etc. even in the hard braking zones at those tracks I never saw anything bad from this setup. But thats not the point here.

Awesome info from everyone, basically what I'm getting is that more mass is better because it absorbs more heat, so new rotors, new pads, and shims if possible will all help? And I have been looking at brake ducting, but it looks like it is kind of hard to fit a decent sized hose past the caliper.

I actually don't know what hawk pads I'm running so that might be my problem, I think I'm just going to go to a new pad, maybe Carbotechs or R4E's?

Also, about braking, its reasonable to assume that I don't know how to drive/brake, etc, and I'll be the first to admit that I'm definitely not the best. However, I grew up in a racing family, I have instructed at Jim Hall Kart Racing School for two summers, I've autocrossed my car for a year, I know about slow in fast out, threshold braking, trail braking etc, and I do heel and toe, so I at very least know the basics.

Another question I had was if the brakes will even get much hotter at a larger track. I know the brakes will heat up more during a single stop, but they also have more time to cool down in between stops...

Also, when I got my brakes glowing I was driving very fast down hill, which I'm sure had a large impact on temps. What I really need to do is go out and test for myself, but I'm just trying to get a head start here

I was not implying you yourself did not know how at all. Just was a general statement was all. But yes, I believe on larger tracks; higher speed tracks even, that you will have time to cool your brakes down. To go from lets say 140 mph to 50 mph doesnt really take all that long. Maybe 150 - 200 feet or so. You are on the brakes pretty hard for say 3 seconds. Then you have a while before you are on them again that hard on a larger.high speed track. Shorter tight twisty tracks will be heder on brakes than your larger or high speed tracks for obvious reasons.

Watch races at night. Best time to see what brakes do to me. You can see the rotors glowing for brief second then fade off. You are not really on your brakes that hard in every turn. You will have time to cool them down. You have to take into other factors as well. Car weight, rotor diameter, number of pistons in caliper, fluid, pad size, ducting to rotors, brake bias. Even your suspension setup and tires effects how your car will do under braking. All that comes into play with the brake setup. Its not just pads rotors and go. And I know some people may already know all of this. But some others may benefit from thsi thread so that is why I am posting this stuff on here.

I hope some of this information is helpful

 

[Ludachris]

Brake cooling also plays a big role - wheel design is part of that. It's not easy to run cooling ducts on these cars, but if you can, it will help greatly. I still haven't came up with a great way to do it on a 1G, though I'm thinking of just putting some scoops under the control arms to get "some" air into the center of the rotor.

Get a set of race pads if you can - night and day difference from what I've found. I would chew up high performance street pads pretty quick. They would usually come apart in chunks. The race pads hold up much better.

 

[UnsafeAtAnySpd]

Alright, I checked the source where I got my Ti shims. Nothing for DSMs on there. But in case any of you are running Evo brakes or maybe another caliper they offer shims for, here's the site:
TiSpeed Titanium Brake Heat Shields Improve Your Braking Performance

 

[Evan K.]

Ahhh, the ring. quite the track, I had a great time driving it when I was over there.


For brake pads you have to run a fine line. Go to far towards a pure track only pad and the temps generated will have you going through rotors every trip to the ring, as well as creating issues with brake fluid. If you go with to much of a street pad, they'll fade and possibly fall apart.

If you go often, DEFINITELY invest in some castrol srf brakefluid. yes, it's 80$, but you really don't need to go through very much of it because the wet boiling point is so high as well that a quick bleed (1 pump/release) before you hit the track hard is all you need, versus bleeding the entire system every time.

I would second the R4-E recommendation. they'll take the heat, but the mu isn't high enough to really tear apart your rotors (get blanks, not slotted or drilled)

Pagid yellows are another great pad for the endurance requirement, but I highly doubt they make them for the DSM caliper.

OHHH, And add some ghetto brake ducts in place. 15$ at a hardware store should net you some dryer venting hose that works as a disposable brake duct system. put it on for the track, take it off for inspections.

^ Yeah what he said