ROAD RACING: Building a road race motor

[Slow old poop]

As you may or may not recall, we broke a timing belt at Road America and lunched the engine. The motor is being rebuilt, and I'd like a little advice on whether I am doing the right stuff for road racing. It's easy to find folks who can build 10 sec DSM motors, but making a motor last on a road course is a different kettle of fish.

Here's where I am right now:

The head is of to CFM Performance in Indiana, getting a Stage IV port & polish, and all the bent valves replaced. Reports are that it already has titanium keepers, oversize valves, and the springs took good (I didn't build the motor...I bought it already built).

The short block is going over to AutoMotorSports in Chicago in two weeks to be rebuilt. This will include machine work that is necessary to the block, federal mogul main and rod bearings, ross 8.5:1 compression pistons .020" over, front and rear main seals, eagle forged connecting rods, and new oil pump and gears.

It already has 272 cams, balance shafts removed, ARP head studs, 20G Frank Turbo, external wastegate, 660cc injectors, 2G MAF, Buscher FPR, Walboro Fuel Pump, Fluidyne aluminum radiator, Electric Flex-a-lite fans, Extreme Motorsports FMIC and piping. We have a DSMLink for it and plan to install water injection yet this winter.

If there is anything I need to do the motor at this point to help it survive road racing, please let me know. The motor has 10,000 miles on it, most of it highway driving. I drove it harder than it had every been run in its life, so it suffered no abuse in those 10,000 miles until this season.

We noticed, upon pulling the motor down, that the rod bearings were starting to show copper. Hmmm....

All advice welcome. The motor is disassembled and ready to go to the shop, so speak up! If there is something I need to do, now is the time to do it.

Rich/90 Eclipse GSX

 

[drivemusicnow]

As you may or may not recall, we broke a timing belt at Road America and lunched the engine. The motor is being rebuilt, and I'd like a little advice on whether I am doing the right stuff for road racing. It's easy to find folks who can build 10 sec DSM motors, but making a motor last on a road course is a different kettle of fish.

Here's where I am right now:

The head is of to CFM Performance in Indiana, getting a Stage IV port & polish, and all the bent valves replaced. Reports are that it already has titanium keepers, oversize valves, and the springs took good (I didn't build the motor...I bought it already built).

The short block is going over to AutoMotorSports in Chicago in two weeks to be rebuilt. This will include machine work that is necessary to the block, federal mogul main and rod bearings, ross 8.5:1 compression pistons .020" over, front and rear main seals, eagle forged connecting rods, and new oil pump and gears.

It already has 272 cams, balance shafts removed, ARP head studs, 20G Frank Turbo, external wastegate, 660cc injectors, 2G MAF, Buscher FPR, Walboro Fuel Pump, Fluidyne aluminum radiator, Electric Flex-a-lite fans, Extreme Motorsports FMIC and piping. We have a DSMLink for it and plan to install water injection yet this winter.

If there is anything I need to do the motor at this point to help it survive road racing, please let me know. The motor has 10,000 miles on it, most of it highway driving. I drove it harder than it had every been run in its life, so it suffered no abuse in those 10,000 miles until this season.

We noticed, upon pulling the motor down, that the rod bearings were starting to show copper. Hmmm....

All advice welcome. The motor is disassembled and ready to go to the shop, so speak up! If there is something I need to do, now is the time to do it.

Rich/90 Eclipse GSX

I'm not sure if you care, however AMS sends the motor work out to a machine shop for most of it, However I do believe they assemble the shortblocks. Either way, I'd talk to Mitch at Engintecs. He is a road race kind of guy and takes absolutely zero shortcuts. Everything is done exactly correct with no room for error.

Other than that, Have whoever is assembling the shortblock to double check the rods and make sure they are in spec.

 

[Defiant]

Greg Collier just finished two seasons on one motor. You might see if he has any tips (that he'll reveal).

 

[Slow old poop]

>I'd talk to Mitch at Engintecs. He is a road race kind of guy and takes absolutely zero shortcuts. Everything is done exactly correct with no room for error.

Both shops are in Illinois, so that's convenient for this Iowa boy. I got equally good recommendations for AMS. Anybody else care to chime in on Enginetics v AMS?
\
>Greg Collier just finished two seasons on one motor.


Yes, I saw that. I am definitely hoping that Greg has something to say about all this, once he gets down off his well-deserved high. He's probably still celebrating.

Rich

 

[Greg Collier]

The thing about amateur racing is that you have to go back to work the next day and unless you’re working in a shop that has anything to do with cars, all thoughts about racing goes on the back burner…

The motor we’ve been running for the past two seasons was a low miles, virtually stock, JDM engine, from Japan. The only internals changed were 264/256 Crane Cams. I changed all the pulleys to Unorthodox Racing including the crank. I can’t tell you how many people said if I didn’t run a harmonic balancer the crank would go for sure (it didn’t). We upgraded the fuel rail and went with RC 550’s that made it very restrictive in tuning and tuning was the key in getting a safe 330hp at 18 pounds of boost out of this motor. Having the AEM engine management system took those limited upgrades and created reliable power source race after race. Of course having Scot Gray (the master tuner of the universe) at the controls made all the difference in the world. At this point even though the motor sucks oil like a pig the compression holds a solid 150 straight across. As I’ve already told you how the Fluidyne radiator and duct and vent system kept everything cool. But this is a fading memory… if I want to be competitive next year I’ll need another 100hp minimum!

IF, and yes you’re seeing the big “IF” again, if I race next season I want a 2.3 Stroker motor. A good example is the Slowboy Racing 2.3L Stroker 4G63 Stage II:

http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=1896

Now if I could get Slowboy to sponsor me one of these puppies then the sky is the limit!

I’d use a Forced Performance "GREEN" Turbo, a PWR performance racing radiator, and a Moroso oil pan for two added quarts of oil needed to keep this kind of horsepower temperatures within reason. According to Mr. Gray I should run 1000cc injectors minimum to make the tuning an easier task.

The bottom line is as you know; on your path to making a lot of reliable horsepower for long periods of time you’ve got to keep it cool to run another day

 

[ISUJakey]

>I'd talk to Mitch at Engintecs. He is a road race kind of guy and takes absolutely zero shortcuts. Everything is done exactly correct with no room for error.

Both shops are in Illinois, so that's convenient for this Iowa boy. I got equally good recommendations for AMS. Anybody else care to chime in on Enginetics v AMS?

They are both excellent resources. To the best of my knowledge, Engintecs does all of their machine work inhouse and AMS outsources to another machine shop- someone please correct me if I'm wrong. There are/were some AMS engines around the Des Moines area in recent years, but I've lost touch with where things stand these days. I only know of 1 Engintecs engine which is up in the Winona, MN area and to the best of my knowledge, has been 200% flawless since it was built 3(?) years ago. Personally, I will be sending my engine work to Engintecs when that day comes.

 

[Slow old poop]

The motor we’ve been running for the past two seasons was a low miles, virtually stock, JDM engine, from Japan. The only internals changed were 264/256 Crane Cams. I changed all the pulleys to Unorthodox Racing including the crank. I can’t tell you how many people said if I didn’t run a harmonic balancer the crank would go for sure (it didn’t). We upgraded the fuel rail and went with RC 550’s that made it very restrictive in tuning and tuning was the key in getting a safe 330hp at 18 pounds of boost out of this motor.

Wow! It almost sounds like I have more hp than you do!

I’d use a Forced Performance "GREEN" Turbo, a PWR performance racing radiator, and a Moroso oil pan for two added quarts of oil needed to keep this kind of horsepower temperatures within reason. According to Mr. Gray I should run 1000cc injectors minimum to make the tuning an easier task.

I can't afford to be changing my turbo or radiator, but the oil pan is intriguing, especially since we saw a little copper showing on the bearings. Does that oil pan protrude very much? I also have the AWD system...does the oil pan work with an AWD?

The bottom line is as you know; on your path to making a lot of reliable horsepower for long periods of time you’ve got to keep it cool to run another day

It sounds as if I have a reasonably good setup already, but I need to work on keeping it cool. Thanks, Greg.

You are my hero, dude! I am glad I don't run in your NASA region!

Rich

 

[Greg Collier]

Wow! It almost sounds like I have more hp than you do!

You probably do have more horsepower than me but I bet your car weighs a 1000lbs more than mine

I can't afford to be changing my turbo or radiator, but the oil pan is intriguing, especially since we saw a little copper showing on the bearings. Does that oil pan protrude very much? I also have the AWD system...does the oil pan work with an AWD?

The turbo was just my choice for a stroker motor, but the radiator is a must if you plan on running 400hp or more. I'd still be a little concerned with your front mount I/C and getting the necessary clean air through the radiator. The oil pan is made to DSM spec's so fitment shouldn't be a problem. You can check it out here:

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/moroso-install.htm

It sounds as if I have a reasonably good setup already, but I need to work on keeping it cool. Thanks, Greg.

It sounds like your setup should be kick ass... Now it's just a matter of a little tweaking

You are my hero, dude! I am glad I don't run in your NASA region!
Rich

No... you're my hero

 

[Slow old poop]

You probably do have more horsepower than me but I bet your car weighs a 1000lbs more than mine :

1,000 lb? Wow! I know the AWD adds a few hundred pounds, but how did you get all that weight off? What are the biggie items to change? I got race seats and gutted rear, but I sure don't see where I could get another 800 lb off.

No... you're my hero:

Awww...gee, thanks (*blush*), but I ain't done nuthin yet to earn that. Just some HPDEs.
I got a long way to go to get to the hero class. Compared to you, I'm still a poser.

Rich

 

[Greg Collier]

1,000 lb? Wow! I know the AWD adds a few hundred pounds, but how did you get all that weight off? What are the biggie items to change? I got race seats and gutted rear, but I sure don't see where I could get another 800 lb off.

My car sits a tad under 2000lb.s


Awww...gee, thanks (*blush*), but I ain't done nuthin yet to earn that. Just some HPDEs.
I got a long way to go to get to the hero class. Compared to you, I'm still a poser.

Rich

You're my hero because you're actually going for it... you, plus a couple other guys aren't just talking about it, you're doing it and that's 90% of the battle in my book

Greg

 

[drivemusicnow]

You're my hero because you're actually going for it... you, plus a couple other guys aren't just talking about it, you're doing it and that's 90% of the battle in my book

Greg

holy!... under 2000 lbs. Did you just start cutting sheet metal off? haha Thats pretty impressive.

 

[Greg Collier]

holy!... under 2000 lbs. Did you just start cutting sheet metal off? haha Thats pretty impressive.

I go through this every time I talk about the weight of the car. When you strip the car of of the entire interior, steel bumpers, all the excess metal in the front end and rear end to support a tiny 13 gallon fuel cell, the big ol gas tank, big ol muffler, rear hatch window and door windows, front hood, cut out fenders, the OEM vinyl front, side, and rear body parts, heavy steel rims, then replace those parts with carbon fiber, fiberglass, polycarbonate, chromoly, aluminum supports, 13lb. racing rims, 18lb. alum racing seat... etc. etc. etc. 2000lbs. isn't that unrealistic

 

[terefic181]

I can't afford to be changing my turbo or radiator...

Rich,

I don't know what your budget is but you might be able to upgrade your radiator the way I did. I watched some of the Nascar re-sellers on E-bay and the like, and picked up a 3" double row race radiator, pretty reasonably priced. Just watch for the size, I believe 27" x 19" with the inlet outlet, of course, on the passenger side. Check the measurements on your radiator yourself, I'm going by memory and unfortunately mine keeps getting worse. All I had to do to make it fit was, add the 2 upper and lower positioning pins.

Might be worth a try.

Tom

 

[Slow old poop]

I go through this every time I talk about the weight of the car. When you strip the car of of the entire interior, steel bumpers, all the excess metal in the front end and rear end to support a tiny 13 gallon fuel cell, the big ol gas tank, big ol muffler, rear hatch window and door windows, front hood, cut out fenders, the OEM vinyl front, side, and rear body parts, heavy steel rims, then replace those parts with carbon fiber, fiberglass, polycarbonate, chromoly, aluminum supports, 13lb. racing rims, 18lb. alum racing seat... etc. etc. etc. 2000lbs. isn't that unrealistic

I have to be careful what I do to the car to keep it competitive in its class. Next year, I plan to run NASA TT events in Class B and NASA race events* in unlimited. I don't have a prayer in unlimited class, but there doesn't seem to be any other race class for DSMs. However, I stand a good chance of being competitive in B. Therefore, I'll concentrate on trying to trophy in TT and gain fender-to-fender experience running the road races and learning how to get passed.

I guess it all depends on what the NASA inspectors decide to add for points, but the way I read the rules, I have 48 points worth of mods, and an Eclipse GSX starts in Class E. 46 points jumps me up 3 classes, into Class B. I'd like to stay there my first year and get some fender-to-fender experience. Maybe next winter we can start removing weight and doing additional mods to make me more competitive in unlimited. I just want the car and I to survive our first year of wheel-to-wheel racing more or less intact.

Does anyone have any SCCA experience? Where does a DSM fit into SCCA classes? Maybe I could run some SCCA regionals, too.

Rich

*Note to non-NASA racers. NASA runs time trials and races. Time trials are wheel-to-wheel events, no contact permitted, and the fastest lap of the weekend in a class wins. A DSM turbo starts out in Class E, and moves up in class according to the number of points assessed for mods (see http://www.racenasa.com/TT/TTwebpage.htm for all the gory details). NASA road races are wheel-to-wheel fender benders, but the only class for DSMs is unlimited. Gregg runs road races in unlimited class against the meanest, nastiest, most expensive racers on the planet. I gotta work up to that.

 

[Slow old poop]

Rich,
I don't know what your budget is but you might be able to upgrade your radiator the way I did. I watched some of the Nascar re-sellers on E-bay and the like, and picked up a 3" double row race radiator, pretty reasonably priced. Just watch for the size, I believe 27" x 19" with the inlet outlet, of course, on the passenger side. Check the measurements on your radiator yourself, I'm going by memory and unfortunately mine keeps getting worse. All I had to do to make it fit was, add the 2 upper and lower positioning pins.
Tom

I already have a Fluidyne aluminum rad with two flex-a-lite fans, and my temp gage didn't show any problems on track, so I am going to stick with this setup until it proves to be ineffective. Other than melting the timing belt cover, I didn't have any cooling problems all season. To increase cooling in the timing belt area, I am going to try a splitter, ductwork and a slot in the hood.

I have not been doing wheel-to-wheel racing yet, but will start next year (see post above). As I understand it, running on somebody's back bumper tends to heat things up, so I may wind up calling the NASCAR boys for help like you suggest.

Thanks for the advice.

Rich

 

[terefic181]

... but there doesn't seem to be any other race class for DSMs...Where does a DSM fit into SCCA classes?

There is another class for the DSM's in NASA, at least here on the West coast. It is the equivilant of the SCCA ITS class. The DSM's aren't specificly listed but that's the class they put them in. Look up PS-0 (Pro Sedan) class on the NASA site. [Click Here]. You basicly have to find a set of rules for ITE from SCCA and follow them, with the exception of the few superseeding rules in the NASA PS-0 rules. Kent Jordan in his EVO ran some in this class last year, and, I believe won all those.

I have not been doing wheel-to-wheel racing yet...As I understand it, running on somebody's back bumper tends to heat things up...

I'm in the same boat as you in this respect (no races yet). Maybe I'm overdoing it, but I've listened to Scott Gray and also followed the perils of RRE, the last 6-7 years, in regards to their heat issues, and tried to upgrade when I could, as a prophylactic measure. (I didn't realize you had the Fluidyne)

Good Luck with your endeavors and I look forward to seeing your progress this next year!!!

Tom

 

[Ludachris]

One minor note about the Moroso oil pan - if you are running ARP studs instead of the factory bolts, you may have clearance issues with the pan. I did. And instead of modifying it to fit, I just decided against using it and went with the stock pan. I'm not sure if it was just a problem with the pan I got or what. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Slow old poop]

One minor note about the Moroso oil pan - if you are running ARP studs instead of the factory bolts, you may have clearance issues with the pan. I did. And instead of modifying it to fit, I just decided against using it and went with the stock pan. I'm not sure if it was just a problem with the pan I got or what. Just something to keep in mind.

I have ARP head studs. Do you mean those? If so, how do they interfere with a pan?

Rich

 

[drivemusicnow]

I have ARP head studs. Do you mean those? If so, how do they interfere with a pan?

Rich

No, He is referring to the main studs from ARP. (I'm ASSuming again)

 

[Ludachris]

I have ARP head studs. Do you mean those? If so, how do they interfere with a pan?

Rich

Main studs - the pan drops down over them and it didn't clear when I went to install mine.

 

[Slow old poop]

Main studs - the pan drops down over them and it didn't clear when I went to install mine.

Assuming that I *DON'T* have the ARP main studs, which is more important: adding ARP main studs or installing the Moroso oil pan? I am still at the point where I can do either.

Rich

 

[Greg Collier]

Assuming that I *DON'T* have the ARP main studs, which is more important: adding ARP main studs or installing the Moroso oil pan? I am still at the point where I can do either.

Rich

Install the ARP main studs. You're running HPDE so you'll have no battles. When you start running wheel to wheel and your motor begins to overheat then you can go the extra mile and add the Moroso. When you're doing any custom modification you have to expect a little tweaking to get the setup.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

What will the main studs do for you? Sounds like a stupid question, but I have never really looked it up.

Anyway, SCCA classes start DSMs in the D-stock class, however as soon as you put that stupid downpipe in you are already in STX class. STX allows a lot of freedom for modifications without going too far up the class and get your ass raped. Your allowed suspension modifications and dot-approved compounds. I am running in this class right now but dont have suspension or compounds so im not too serious right now, but I put up a competitive fight and typically finish 2nd or 3rd in my class.

 

[Slow old poop]

SCCA classes start DSMs in the D-stock class, however as soon as you put that stupid downpipe in you are already in STX class. STX allows a lot of freedom for modifications without going too far up the class and get your ass raped. Your allowed suspension modifications and dot-approved compounds. I am running in this class right now but dont have suspension or compounds so im not too serious right now, but I put up a competitive fight and typically finish 2nd or 3rd in my class.

STX is a Solo II autocross class, right? Tell us about it. As I understand it, Solo II is more than just autocrossing around pylons on a postage stamp parking lot. You run on real tracks, kinda like a NASA TT, but you just get a lap or two at a time. Please fill us in on what's involved in a Solo II, and what kinds of cars you run against in STX. I gave up autocrosses years ago, so I've never run a Solo II.

If you want, you can transfer this over to the SCCA vs NASA thread, where it might make more sense.

Rich

 

[Greg Collier]

STX is a Solo II autocross class, right? Tell us about it. As I understand it, Solo II is more than just autocrossing around pylons on a postage stamp parking lot. You run on real tracks, kinda like a NASA TT, but you just get a lap or two at a time. Please fill us in on what's involved in a Solo II, and what kinds of cars you run against in STX. I gave up autocrosses years ago, so I've never run a Solo II.

If you want, you can transfer this over to the SCCA vs NASA thread, where it might make more sense.

Rich

Rich
SCCA Solo II is autocrossing 1 lap at a time as an individual against the clock for your best time. We run our Solo II here in San Diego at the Qual Com stadium parking lot. The pylon track configurations are extremely more difficult than a "real track". The talent and precision needed by a driver to thread through these courses is extra ordinary. Some of the best wheel to wheel racers out there today have their roots from autocrossing. I've had many intense driving lessons from at least three national auto-x champions that live here in San Diego, and I'm a far better driver because of that.

SCCA Solo I is running your best lap time on a actual track as an individual, like the NASA TT.