will not start unless the timing is fully retarded

[Grant]

Okay. I have freshly reassembled 6bolt. The car will not start unless the timing is fully retarded. I have 272's, walbro 255, and some clutch pieces. other than that the car is stock with all the emissions gone.

The car will start with the aid of starting fluid, but runs super rich. Moving the CAS back and forth doesn't seem to do much once the car is running. Right now there's no exhaust on it so I've never run it for more than 5 minutes. There is 135psi of compression on all 4 cylinders. I assumed that this is satisfactory for a freshly assembled engine, and that it will go up once the engine is properly broken in. I checked the injectors, and one was bad. I replaced it and the all spray fuel. I have spark as well.

My real question is I guess, do cams really make that much of a difference in idle and throttle response?
The engine never gets past 3000 rpm, and u can smell the gas thats still in the exhaust. The only things I can think of to do is:
1. do a vacuum leakdown test with the homemade boost leak tester
2. check my timing?

I guess im getting kind of frustrated, this car has been one little thing after another, and i still havent even driven it yet!
Is there something ive missed? Im running out of inspiration!

 

[DSM1G90]

being stock meaning 450cc injectors? How does the sparkplus look after a run - sooty and black from a rich mixture?

Got the Ox2 sensor in the closed loop with the ECU along with the MAF for they do work together in the loop.

 

[Grant]

yeah, i still got 450's. I did a boost leak test, and one of the throttle body gaskets was not sealing. Thats been fixed, but the car still doesn't idle worth a crap. The plugs are pretty black after its been run. What do you mean when you say the O2 sensor has to be in a loop wf the ecu? I just have the stock plugs all hooked up, is there something I could change? or maybe something to test?

 

[bluetlr2001]

Do you have a afpr for the 255 and also do you have anything to control your fuel with. If not then that may be a major problem because with the cams you will need to play with the fuel i believe. And i fyou dont have an afpr your going to be running rich because the stock fpr want hold a 255 very well

 

[Grant]

Noo, I don't have anything to control the fuel with other than the stock fpr. Should I check my pressure? Does the stock fpr just not have enough flow to properly regulate it?

Theres also the problem of having a coating of oil on everything. My oil seals went out on my turbo and it was spraying all over. My dad did a rebuild of it and at first it acted exactly the same. The crazy thing is, after running it for a bit, the leaks all stopped. But there's still a thin coating of oil on all the intake piping. I was thinking that maybe the O2 sensor also has a bunch of oil on it?

 

[Grant]

I had a vacuum gauge hooked up, and it would never read more than something like 6 inches of mercury, which aint much vacuum. But I was gonna use a can of SeaFoam to clean out my intake manifold, but there was always air being blown out, instead of being sucked in. This was both in the outlet on the compressor and off the BOV line. So I was wondering if maybe theres something else?

She does smoke a bit, but its that clearish-blue smoke of too much gas, not the thick cloud that there was when the turbo was spraying oil.

 

[banishedmunk]

if your compression is 135 now on a freshly rebuilt motor then it will be even lower when the rings set in you may want to check in to that

 

[bluetlr2001]

Noo, I don't have anything to control the fuel with other than the stock fpr. Should I check my pressure? Does the stock fpr just not have enough flow to properly regulate it?

Your stock fpr will get over run. It cant keep the pressure at the appropriate pressure. Its letting more fuel by than the car needs. And as for it not having any vacuum at the compressure inlet and the bov line, look and see if your turbo is spinning. If its not then there is your problem. The turbo should be spinning when the engine is at idle and that will make it suck air in to create the vacuum.

 

[Grant]

Im sorry bluetrl2001, but you do not need an aftermarket afpr to regulate a walbro 255. When you said that, I wasnt sure what to think, so I started searching the forums for people with problems with cams, and 255's. A moderator came right out and said it, that you don't need an aftermarket fpr to regulate it.

banishedmunk, Once the engine is broke in, compression will rise. This is simply because of the fact that the rings will individually wear to the exact cylinder shape that the slide in. As they wear, the tolerances in the actual bore will tighten, simply because the rings are now worn with all the imperfections that may be in the actual bore. If your compression went down after you broke in an engine, I would question your breakin procedure! Or maybe you had bad valve leakage. An easy way to test and see if your rings are shot, dribble some oil into the spark plug hole, and then do a compression test. If it goes way up, your rings are shot, and if it stays the same, you may have valve sealing problems.

Im sorry guys, but this is simply a case of really bad vacuum leaks around my throttle body. The IAC was leaking alot, and now the elbow that bolts on the trottle body has a small leak that I gotta RTV.

 

[LandoAWD]

Im sorry bluetrl2001, but you do not need an aftermarket afpr to regulate a walbro 255. When you said that, I wasnt sure what to think, so I started searching the forums for people with problems with cams, and 255's. A moderator came right out and said it, that you don't need an aftermarket fpr to regulate it.

Link? The stock FPR will be overrun by the 255 pumps.

 

[Grant]

Are you certain that you must have a afpr to properly regulate fuel pressure? I really need to know 100%. I really don't feel like I need one right now, as I still have vacuum leaks to take care of. If the car doesn't run after I get the vacuum leaks fixed tonight, I guess I will have to reconsider. I guess im still kinda skeptical at this point, as the car came with the 255, and the dude was still running the stock fpr.

 

[LandoAWD]

Again, grab me that link you read.

Yes, a 255 will overrun a stock FPR. Just because "it came like that" doesn't mean it is right.

Search Results - DSMtuners

^^^Search results.

 

[bluetlr2001]

Link? The stock FPR will be overrun by the 255 pumps.

Thank you for proving me right! I knew i had seen it posted many times on here about needing a afpr to run a 255 properly. And grant sometimes the stock fpr will hold the pressure from a 255 but you never know how long it will hold or if its even holding it at all unless you have a guage you can keep an eye on when your driving it. That is why i went with a 190 when i replaced mine. And i would fix all the vacuum leaks and see how it does after that.

 

[Grant]

Alright, I got the vacuum leaks fixed, still runs really rich. I concede defeat Sorry guys.
I went to a shop today, (cause my bro's car has some bad electrical problems) and picked the dudes brain on what he thought. He has a civic with 500+ hp and the dyno charts to prove it. He also agreed that I would need a afpr. He showed me one that looked like our stock fpr, but it was also adjustable. Then he pulled out the one he used on his civic, and the difference was pretty clear! I take it that the stock fpr simply doesn't have the actual volume in the regulator itself to evacuate the fuel quickly enough, or as you guys put it, it is simply outflowed by the pump.

Thanx a lot everyone, now, any good recommendations on a decent "cheap" afpr?

 

[Grant]

Hopefully, I can finally get the freakin thing running decent now. This project has taken far too long! I just want to get in and drive the thing.

 

[snowborder714]

Thanx a lot everyone, now, any good recommendations on a decent "cheap" afpr?

Whichever one you get, make sure it fits the criteria in this post:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/296114-what-kind-fpr-do-i-need.html#post151513981

I personally would go with an Aeromotive as they have been proven time and time again that they work.

 

[TheBigPhantom]

I'm not going on a hunch here but did you install the 272's you're self?

If not did you check you're timing so that it is in time with the entire motor?

Sometimes when you tension the tensioner pulley it pulls the exhaust cam slightly so you have to compensate for that when you do the timing up top.

It might run with full retarded timing because it might be off only a couple teeth.

 

[LandoAWD]

Keep an eye on the Classifieds and the Trader and see if you can't find an old FullThrottleSpeed FPR. Cheap and effective.

 

[Grant]

Thanks for the help again guys. I got in touch with a dude who has an aeromotive afpr so we'll see how that goes. I'm pretty sure I have the timing pretty close, although that's another thing to check. I've done retiming 5 or 6 times with my brother in all our adjustments and rebuilds, but I'll look at it just to make sure.

I don't know if any of you have experience in this, but it was really pretty crazy how my turbo just suddenly decided to stop leaking! A fresh rebuild on the turbo, new seals and bearings, and I fired it up, and the thing was blowing oil all over. A couple days later and some run time behind it, and suddenly it completely stopped. I wiped off the little dribbles that were on the outlet tubes, and they haven't gotten oily yet!

Any ideas how this might have happened?