Another idle surge problem.. can't fix it, please help me out

[Razor_nl]

I have some sort of idle surge problem with my car. I've tried the stuff on the various sites about this problem (vfaq and here) but it didn't help. I'll write all available information I have in this post.

My setup:
'96 european 2G eclipse (came with a 4G63 nt , not a 420A)
JDM 6-bolt engine with cyclone intake, big16g turbo, default injectors (i think its 440 or 450)
SSQV recirced
injen airfilter
walbro 190 pump, no name fuelpressure regulator
denso spark plugs
fmic with hard piping
act clutch / flywheel
greddy profec b boost controller
original GS exhaust (ouch), no name muffler

The idle situation is like this:
When I start the car from a cold start, it starts without any problems at all, no matter what weather it is. Depending on temp. outside it runs a while at 1500-1900rpm and slowly goes down in rpm as the engine starts to heat up. Oil pressure is quite high also at moments liks this, about 6-7bar at my mechanical aftermarket meter. When the engine is warm it runs at 900rpm and it runs very stable, the rpm doesn't dance up and down, not even a little bit. Maybe once a minute it drops to 750, goes up to 950, and back to 900 and stays there.

Now the problem:
When the rpm is below about 1500 and I hit the clutch pedal, rpm drops down very fast, to like 100 or so. It keeps on running most of the time, but it feels like it has a very hard time doing so. It drops very low in rpm, stays there for 2-3 secs and then goes up to a stable 900rpm idle. And sometimes it just dies. Driving on higher rpm and hitting the clutch pedal causes the engine to just stall. RPM goes down very fast and the engine stalls without an attempt to keep running.
When I'm driving and I shift, I even have to shift "fast" to be able to release the clutch pedal again and to keep the engine running. (or use the gas pedal while shifting)
Some other things to make this problem more clear (or complicated).. When the engine is cold, I don't have this problem AT ALL. RPM doesn't go below 900rpm. The hotter the engine is, the lower the border in rpm is between dying or barely keeping from dying.
Also, my co2 on idle is way too high (like 6 or so instead of the 0.5 it should be) Co2 when it's not on idle is just perfect. The cat is still under it.
When I drive and release the gas pedal (and don't hit the clutch pedal) my car just slowly slows down, but sometimes it goes very bumpy, feels to me like running too rich.
Last thing I noticed, I've been on a dyno test some time ago and my car was spitting out some liquid from the exhaust on the floor.

I'm not a big mechanic, but to me it seems like there is something completely wrong with the fuel. I think these problems (stalling, bumping, co2) are all the cause of too high fuel injection at some points or anything like that. Maybe the cause of the cheap fuelpressure device, maybe something else.
I'm getting myself an AFC neo soon (got it very cheap on a groupbuy, thats why I picked it over dsmlink) so I hope I can adjust some things with that. But that can take a while and I really want to fix this problem before that time as I don't think it will be completely gone with adding a fuel management.

Finally, if it may help in any way, a pic of my engine bay:
(my hks ssqv is not recirced here, but it is now)
ImageShack - Hosting :: afbeelding128le8.jpg

So if you guys have any ideas about this, please let me know!
Sorry for the long post by the way, I wanted to give you guys all the information that could have to do with this.

 

[EagleTSIawd]

check all your vacuum hoses for any leaks, tp sensor alignment, water temp sensor. a stock jdm 6 bolt does not use 450 injectors, so if you switched to those then you have to tune your ecu for them.

 

[Razor_nl]

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to check all kind of stuff this weekend with a mechanic, I'll make sure we also check these.
Also I've noticed, my lame FPR is running at something just over 61psi on idle. All lines connected, engine fully warmed up, reading came from the gauge on the FPR itsself. I've checked up on this and everywhere I read 43.5psi for 2G or 37.5 for 1G. I'll see if I can adjust this also. Should I go for the 2G or 1G pressure? Because I basicly have a 1G engine in a 2G car. And do you have any tips on doing so? I read stuff about disconnecting vacuum hose and stuff but I don't really get it yet.

By the way I have just the stock injectors. I do have a "real" JDM engine, not a USDM with a cyclone intake bolt on it. I've read up a bit on this and then they should be 510's right?

For some reason I really suspect my FPR for being defective or just setup wrong, I think it would explain a lot of my problems (bogging, stalling, co2) Alltho I could be completely wrong, but to me it makes sense.
Oh and by the way, I know I shouldn't be using a cheap FPR but I still had this one from my old engine. When I have some spare money again the first thing I'm gonna do is replace it with an AEM or Aeromotive.

 

[Twistaye]

43.5 psi since you're running a 2g ECU. Did you check your ISC to make sure it was functioning correctly? +1 Aeromotive AFPR, might be the issue to all your problems, definately worth checking out. Good luck

The "jdm" engines do come with 510 injectors; and the injectors are yellow tops, check to confirm, but you should have 510's in your car.

 

[Razor_nl]

Well I'm using the ECU that came with the engine, else the cyclone would be quite useless. Do I still need to use the 2G pressure then?
I'll check tomorrow for the color on my current injectors. I'm planning to replace them after this problem is fixed anyway by some 650s so I can raise my boost more.
ISC has been checked by some mechanic, no idea how. I believed him since my idle is quite stable and not dancing up and down. I've read about the manual testing with messuring ohm on some pins, I'll also do that tomorrow to make sure it's OK (or not)

 

[TeeWX98GST]

I had the same problems before I recirculated my HKS BOV. If yours is recirculated correctly you shouldn't be having any problems. However I noticed one thing that can cause the same effect you get with a non recirculated BOV is a leaking BOV. Do a boost leak test and spray down your BOV with soapy water (especially on the screw in the back). Also make sure your pre-turbo intake has no leaks where the air from the BOV can escape (besides the filter before the MAS, of course.

 

[Razor_nl]

Yesterday I took another look to the car. I noticed a few things:

The coupler that connects the turbo to the intake part was a bit too short.. when looking at it from above the coupler covers the entire part of the turbo where it shoves over. On the bottom side it was just barely 1cm over it.. This because the intake goes diagonal up. I don't think there will be air escaping from it but I've ordered a new and longer hose to make sure.

Also my fuel pressure regulator runs at 62psi idle with vacuum disconnected. No way to adjust it, not up or down.. piece of crap! So I've also ordered an Aeromotive FPR kit from ExtremePSI to replace that crap thing.
( EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - Aeromotive "A1000" Complete Fuel Pressure Regulator Kit w/ Gauge: Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99 )
I'm quite sure the co2 problem comes from that thing because there isn't any escaping air and if my car would get false air, my co2 would be too low and not so very high. It was about 8 to 9 on idle where it should be at 0.5. (still have the cat under it)
Alltho the color on the spark plugs looked quite ok, like coffee with milk.

Injectors are yellow so it should be a real JDM engine.

Cried again when I looked at my tiny exhaust.. it's holding back so much power.. really need some extra cash to replace it

Uhm I guess that's it.. I'll check the ssqv and it's flange for leaks, I really hope it's leaking because my options are running low.. It's recirced correctly by the way. It has the special fitting for recircing and it runs with allu tubes back into the intake just before the turbo. I've checked the tubes and couplers for leaks but couldn't find a thing. I'll make a pic of it soon and post it so you guys can verify that it's OK

 

[EagleTSIawd]

WOWserss 62psi ... thats 20+ over from what it should be running at. You know, i would throw out that cyclone mani and replace it with a 1g mani

 

[Razor_nl]

Yeh well if the gauge on the FPR is as sh*t as the thing itsself then it can be even more or less
but it needs to be replaced, thats for sure.
But why would you prefer a 1G mani over cyclone? I've only read good stuff about it. I especially like the higher torque at lower rpm. It's my daily driver and due to the weight of the car I really like having some extra power at lower rpm's.

 

[EagleTSIawd]

reason i said that was because a 1g mani is better than a cyclone that isnt working properly, but i missed what you said here...

Well I'm using the ECU that came with the engine, else the cyclone would be quite useless...

... so if its working all fine, then nvm that

 

[braceyoself777]

Best bet that it is the ISC or an IAC. I have a vacum leak too but when I replaced the IAC....the surging went away after warm up. A vacum leak is fixable minor problem.....but the IAC would contribute more to a surge than a vacum leak. Go on ebay....find a used one for $45.....and see if its the part to replace. New IAC's cost $200+.....so diagnose carefully.

 

[Razor_nl]

IAC and ISC is the same thing right ? (the black device below the throttle body, step motor)
Yeh that's one of the few things I haven't tried yet, we didnt have a multimeter or something to measure the resistance with.
I'll go check that out as soon as possible.

I hope it's not broken because it's extra money.. on the other hand I realllllyyyyyy hope it's broken so I can finally fix this problem

 

[braceyoself777]

Actually its the thing with a tan face underneath the throttle body and is connected to the coolant bypass valve. Its bolted down with only two screws.....and is easy to reach if you take out the battery.

 

[Razor_nl]

My Aeromotive FPR kit came in. I ordered the complete kit at ExtremePSI as I linked above (with the 1G fuel line option).
Right now I have the normal fpr plus the crap one. (no idea why my mechanic did this but ok) My plan was to go like this:
I will do this when my car is cold, like in the morning or something. I'll just remove my default FPR and cap the connector in the T connector where the vacuum hose went in. Then I remove the 3 hoses that go into the crap FPR, take it out and smash it with a rock (or maybe sell it ). I take the fuel line with the needed connections from the kit and connect it to the fuel rail. The other end goes into the side of the Aeromotive FPR. The other side of the FPR is closed with a big blue bolt that came in the kit. On the bottom I'll put the return line with the connectors that came in the set. Gauge goes onto the front. Then I start the car and carefully adjust the pressure to about 40psi. When it's all fine I connect the vacuum hose that's still lose from the old fpr.
Now a few quick questions:
- When I do the things like i said above, will it work out fine?
- is 40psi good? I have a 2G car but with a JDM 6bolt block and ECU (so basicly 1G) I know that 2G should run at 43, but 1G a bit lower.
- When I disconnect hoses and stuff, there won't be any fuel squirting around as long as I have the key out of the car, right?
- should I put any lube on the bolts/connectors that go into the FPR? I don't know the english word, but it's some kind of rubber-like lube that goes onto the bolts, then the bolts go into the FPR and fuel rail and the lube makes really sure there won't be any leaks. The bolts have rubber rings on them tho but I don't know if that is enough.

I haven't had the chance to check or change the ISC yet, hopefully I can do that somewhere this week. I hope this will solve at least the bogging and co2 problem.

 

[Razor_nl]

* BUMP *
sorry for the bump but I'd like to have your guys opinion about this before I do this.

 

[Razor_nl]

This weekend I've been working on this problem again.
For now, it seems to be fixed for a bit.. here is what I did:
- replaced spark plug wires
- placed the cap back on the BISS housing (it never had one before)
- there was some sort of connector on the back-top side of the TB, I could screw this one 2-3 turns and then it was fit tight

After I did this, I noticed that the problem was gone!! I was so damn happy! I drove around a bit so my engine and oil could fully heat up. I tested around a bit, drove in 2nd or 3rd gear up to 4K rpm and hitting the clutch pedal and the shift poke in neutral. One time it went low in rpm and almost died, that was after I accelerated and pretended to do an emergency brake (kicking hard on the clutch and brake pedal)
I did notice that my idle went up from ~900 to ~1200. I removed the cap, adjusted the BISS. It's almost at its max now, and it idles at ~950. Alltho after doing this, my problem came back a little bit. So tonight I'm going to set the BISS a bit higher again while I'll try to find another solution. I allready have a brand new BISS and O ring, so I'll put that in soon.

I think my problem now is solved a bit because:
- my BISS is leaking, placing the cap back stopped the false air flow
- the thing on my TB that was lose is my TP sensor (not sure if it is btw, please confirm), and maybe because it wasn't screwed in tight, the ecu was thinking that I was still pressing the gas pedal so it didnt activate the fuel injector to keep the engine running

not sure about this tho, just wild guesses.

 

[Razor_nl]

New bump, new update.

Fuel pressure is fine now. 37psi on the Aeromotive fpr + gauge. (GVR4 engine + ecu, thats why I did 37psi nog 42 for a 2G) Car drives smoother now, less bogging when releasing the gas.

Idle problem as described in the first post is still there, unless I set my idle to 1100 rpm, then it's not there anymore, unless I disengange the clutch at like 5000+ rpm.

ISC is measured and all readings are fine...

Please some extra attention to my previous post about the change in idle after a new BISS screw and some sort of connector I tightened. It's not the TPS by the way since that one is at the front of my TB. It's a .. well... "spark plug" looking thing with a wire coming from the top that screws in the back-top of the TB.


Any new ideas please? Im getting desperate