Fuel Pump/Crazy Electrical Problems

[bryan_tberry]

The other day when making a lengthy return trip, my car stalled out on the middle of the interstate. My sunroof popped open, all my warning lights flashed, my guages went all the way up and down, and the windshield wipers came on pretty hardcore.

After pulling the car over and popping the hood, I found my brand new battery was billowing smoke out of the caps. I took the connectors off, and after some roadside assistance, got a new battery in, thinking that was the problem. When I tried to start the car, it would only click. The only thing it was doing was making a loud, constant buzzing noise from under the dash when the battery was all connected. I left it connected and got it towed home. I turned the engine backwards and saw fuel coming out of my turbo, as if it was pouring out of the exhaust ports... which it was. Also, my oil dipstick smelled like fuel. So it's apparrent to me my fuel pump is constantly trying to pump fuel into my motor. I think.

Is this a decent diagnosis? If so, what all needs replaced and how much am I looking at spending? This is my daily driver, and it needs back on the road ASAP. What else might be wrong, and why did this happen?

 

[luv2rallye]

As for the battery smoking there obviously was one heck of a major short. Check battery main cables, the alternator cable, and power wires going into the engine fusebox. Look for looseness, anything that might have touched them, melted spots, broken wires. You may have to remove the fusebox and look underneath at the mass of wires to look for shorts, melts, opens. All the crazy electrical is almost always due to a short or any ground wire being disconnected/melted. You may easily have melted 1 or more wires elsewhere in addition to the one main obvious one you will find. Also check all fuses. After something this major I would test for battery drains/shorts (using the test light proceedure) before doing anything and also after replacing fuses (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1496998#post1496998). Also know that this major of a short can produce voltage spikes that can damage sensitive electrical equipment like a radio or the ECU.

 

[toybreaker]

Did your warranty just expire?

I hate electrical issues! They can seem so overwhelming you just don't know where to start. In this case something is WAY wrong.

Have you changed anything recently? New alarm, stereo or the like? If so, go there first.

As was already stated, check all the fuses and fusible links. (actually just fuses on battery cable strap) All that current had to go somewhere.

Some of the more likely canidates for a failure of this type are....

The positive battery cable coming loose from the starter and touching ground somewhere on the starter or engine. Also, it can touch the solenoid wire and do some crazy stuff, because it's backfeeding the start position of the ignition switch.

Alternator internal failure. There's straps inside the alt. that conduct current from the windings to the diodes and regulator. If one of these fails, it can touch inside and do some interesting things.

Wiring harness issues. Usually these are obvious. There will be crispy wires, and the flexible loom will be melted. The more likely areas are in the wires to the alternator, and the feed to the front fuse box. Just about anything else is fuse protected, and current stops when the fuse opens.

Good luck!

 

[bryan_tberry]

Thanks for the help guys. Mitsu seems to think its my ECU, and possibly some other problems. THeir tearing into the car to figure it out. I found a good ECU on here to replace this one just in case. The dealer wants to charge me over a grand for a new ECU if they have to replace it. Ridiculous. Ive written down all these things and Ill bring the list by the dealer to make sure they check these first. Again thanks.

 

[travislaw]

Thanks for the help guys. Mitsu seems to think its my ECU, and possibly some other problems. THeir tearing into the car to figure it out. I found a good ECU on here to replace this one just in case. The dealer wants to charge me over a grand for a new ECU if they have to replace it. Ridiculous. Ive written down all these things and Ill bring the list by the dealer to make sure they check these first. Again thanks.

If you have to replace your ECU anyway, get an Eprom ECU in case you want to do DSMlink in the future. That way you don't have to replace the ECU again. I doubt the ECU fried everything, it is more likely that whatever shorted out fried your ECU. You can get remanufactured ECU's for $300 - $500 depending on where you get them from.

 

[bryan_tberry]

Honestly, DSMlink isn't going to be necessary. This is just a daily driver that, at most, will have a 16g with supporting mods on medium boost. Most likely tuned with just a wideband or even an AFC. This isnt ever going to be a race car, or dynoqueen, just a reliably quick daily driver. Most likely minus the "reliably". Hell, the way it looks now, it wont even be a street car... dont those have to run or something?

 

[GTM]

The other day when making a lengthy return trip, my car stalled out on the middle of the interstate. My sunroof popped open, all my warning lights flashed, my guages went all the way up and down, and the windshield wipers came on pretty hardcore.

After pulling the car over and popping the hood, I found my brand new battery was billowing smoke out of the caps.
...
So it's apparrent to me my fuel pump is constantly trying to pump fuel into my motor. I think.

Is this a decent diagnosis? If so, what all needs replaced and how much am I looking at spending? This is my daily driver, and it needs back on the road ASAP. What else might be wrong, and why did this happen?

I suspect you had a problem, covered it up with the _smoking_ battery until it too died and now replaced with yet a 3rd. My guess was overcharging and the lengthy trip got the battery hot to the point it outgassed and possibly boiling the acid water mix until it was almost dry. This was acting like a heat sink for the overcharge condition until the battery no longer was able to conduct the current away and started taking out components, relays, and wires. Thus sticking the 3rd battery in there may have been too late for the damage has already occured.

Rotating an engine that uses long timing belts in a counter-clockwise direction (backwards) is never a good idea for it's so easy for them to jump time thus introducing an new factor into the mess.

The fuel pump does _not_ run unless the engine is is running or in the start mode. Thus if the pump is running with the key on and engine not running then you have a problem... fused relay(s), shorted burned wires, or bad ECU. (any or all of the previous list)

I am not understanding if you were seeing raw fuel or vapors coming from the turbo. You should pull the plugs and check if liquid fuel is in the cylrs. Something is holding at least 1 injector open and with the pump running all the time will fill the cylrs and spill out the exhaust.

Yes, a $1000 or more could be the costs to repair your problems, however, if you have reasonable mechanic skills you could reduce this significantly if you have it towed home and make the repairs yourself. More than likely we have enough qualified people here to help you with that process. As for being a daily driver you should be prepared to have alternative transportation for at least a few days while you identify and fix the problems.

Keep us posted even if you elect to have them make the repairs.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[bryan_tberry]

Yeah, it was the liquid fuel coming out of the exhaust ports. That has since been drained and new fuses were put in to take care of the fuel pump problem. So that has been taken care of. And yes, I was worried about turning the engine ccw, but my main concern was to find some kind of problem and that seemed like the most simple method. As of now, their looking at all the wiring to find shorted wires. They said originally, when they replaced the fuses and put them in all the right spots, it started smoking from the kick panel, so they backed off. I would attempt these repairs, but the electrical things are far far beyond my skills, and I have no idea what I'm even looking for. Even if I did find something, I'm afraid I couldnt get it back together right. Hopefully not too many wires/fuses/relays are shorted and destroyed, and if the ECU needs replacing, like I posted earlier, I found a pretty cheap one. Thanks for the help, I'll keep you all updated. Once I get the problem figured out, I hope to be able to help anybody with problems like this in the future. Thanks for all the input!

 

[GTM]

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I would attempt these repairs, but the electrical things are far far beyond my skills, and I have no idea what I'm even looking for. Even if I did find something, I'm afraid I couldnt get it back together right. Hopefully not too many wires/fuses/relays are shorted and destroyed, and if the ECU needs replacing, like I posted earlier, I found a pretty cheap one. Thanks for the help, I'll keep you all updated. Once I get the problem figured out, I hope to be able to help anybody with problems like this in the future. Thanks for all the input!

My advice is if you are going to own a DSM you do 2 things. You have a backup $500 car and you take an adult education class in automotive electrics. I didn't want to get into it but there was some minor misinformation from other posters so be careful who you put your trust in for diagnosing problems.

With a few simple tools and some logic, tracing shorts is not difficult. It concerns me that they after replacing burned fuses they did not check battery draw so wires started smoking. You will never know if they caused more damage, they should have put a short finder circuit breaker between the battery post and the cable. These allow about 20 Amps to pass before opening up, you can make your own from turn signal flashers and add as many as you want to limit the circuit load. Then using an inductive ammeter you just run along the outside of the loom until you find a suspect problem. This is a little oversimplification but 5 min of prevention and common sense could save a wiring loom and some additional components.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[bryan_tberry]

Wow GTM, thanks so much for the input, thats really a lot of good information. I actually emailed this to my service guy at lipscomb and he said he would copy this and post it in the shop for his guys to look at everytime an electrical problem comes up. He gave me a short list of items I would need that would most likely get it running. Tell me if this all sounds okay.

ECU
EGR solenoid (was going bad anyway)
Cam sensor
Crank sensor
MAS

The MAS and ECU are the most expensive, and as my luck has it, I've found them for very cheap to replace here in the classefieds.

 

[huafist]

I'd pull the ECU and open it up. My guesses are, it's toasted. As GTM said, you probably had an overcharge condition the battery was compensating for before it went. I woudln't put ANYTHING back in the car until I had the alt checked for proper operation and checked to make sure I didn't have any shorts anywhere in my wiring.

Fixing the overcharge, replacing the batt, and replacing the ECU (provided there aren't any shorts) should fix your problem. Also, the area of the ECU that's burnt may give an indication of whether or not there's a problem in the harness.

 

[GTM]

Wow GTM, thanks so much for the input, thats really a lot of good information. I actually emailed this to my service guy at lipscomb and he said he would copy this and post it in the shop for his guys to look at everytime an electrical problem comes up. He gave me a short list of items I would need that would most likely get it running. Tell me if this all sounds okay.

ECU
EGR solenoid (was going bad anyway)
Cam sensor
Crank sensor
MAS

The MAS and ECU are the most expensive, and as my luck has it, I've found them for very cheap to replace here in the classefieds.

Ha, that's why they pay me the big bucks here. Ask if he is going to post is as a quote and include GTM as the source. Use to be you could search the internet for GTM and I was the only hit you would find.
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I can accept the first 2 items in your list, I would be pressed to justify the other 3 without knowing more. If you had an alternator running wild you could produce 110v A/C, or 20v+ dc without the battery to filter some of this.

The wires in these sensors are very fine and could get burned. My experience suggests they will burn open circuit rather than a massive short.

I do want to impress upon you that you may have an over charging problem which they have not detected as of yet if the car is not running. There are a couple or so easy tests that can be conducted to determine if you have an alternator problem, my guess is that you have a voltage regulator / stabilizer problem that should be controlling the Alt. Again I am not there so only drawing on past experience and cannot say this is absolute.

What you don't want to be doing is ticking them off, some service managers don't know squat about cars but are good with customers. I don't mean that to be insulting for it depends on clients in a particular region and his support staff.

Bottom line here is once it is running they should monitor charging, keep the rpm low until they have a good grasp on how it's behaving. At idle or just above it's not going to crank out excessive voltage and current but at 1500+ it could repeat what just happened. Food for thought and not exactly a confidence builder under any circumstances.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[bryan_tberry]

Update: The new ECU, along with a cam and crank angle sensor seemed to do the trick for the most part. They say the alternator is good, but I plan on going to autozone and getting that checked out for sure. Also, the service guy says there is a draw somewhere in the system, and to not let the car sit for more than a few days or my battery will be dead. Not sure where the draw could come from. I dont even have a stereo.

The real problem now, lies in the things that still dont work. I'm throwing a CEL due to a bad MAS, which I replaced and the car runs like normal now, but still the CEL. I'll get that checked out. Otherwise, my windshield wipers don't work, my headlights dont work, and neither do my turn signals. Pretty important things. What should I check first? I'm thinking the fuses, but they said they replaced all the bad fuses. Also, when a fuse for the horn is put it, it just honks nonstop. So I have quite a few things to tear into, my headlights being the first order of business. What would be your all's suggestions?

 

[Vandal]

I had a surge similar to that happen (bad voltage regulator..only on a 2gnt it's in the ECU..and it also blew the caps off of my battery during a road trip) and it blew out every bulb in the car, incapacitated the starter, and wiper + blower motors..so on that note, check the bulbs along with the fuses.

 

[GTM]

Update: The new ECU, along with a cam and crank angle sensor seemed to do the trick for the most part. They say the alternator is good, but I plan on going to autozone and getting that checked out for sure. Also, the service guy says there is a draw somewhere in the system, and to not let the car sit for more than a few days or my battery will be dead. Not sure where the draw could come from. I dont even have a stereo.

The real problem now, lies in the things that still dont work. I'm throwing a CEL due to a bad MAS, which I replaced and the car runs like normal now, but still the CEL. I'll get that checked out. Otherwise, my windshield wipers don't work, my headlights dont work, and neither do my turn signals. Pretty important things. What should I check first? I'm thinking the fuses, but they said they replaced all the bad fuses. Also, when a fuse for the horn is put it, it just honks nonstop. So I have quite a few things to tear into, my headlights being the first order of business. What would be your all's suggestions?

I'm glad you are back on the road.

It's a little disconcerting to read that after all that they give you a report that you have a major problem they didn't diagnose other than there is a draw and you are still throwing a CEL.
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I am suspect that the non working items you have mentioned have a single root cause I would proceed with what should be the easiest to diagnose which is the horn circuit. In it's simplest form the horn button is nothing more than a ground, when activated it controls a relay which has power to the relay coil and the circuit is complete when you press the button. The relay will also have 12v power and when activated by the ground will pass the heavier current draw to the horns. The shop report indicating you have a draw is caused by the horn relay in a constant state of activation even though you have disconnected the horn wires the coil is pulling current and will run the battery down. You should be able to feel this relay and it will be warm even when the car has not been driven for some time. This may not be your only source of problems but the horn relay can be removed and not cause other problems.

Unfortunately it's not going to be so simple since this is usually tied into an anti-theft alarm thus you have another source other than the horn button to activate the coil. The exception would be if you have a separate horn exclusive for the alarm. What needs to be determined is where the horn relay coil is getting this ground signal for constant activation. The temptation will be to look at turn signals, wipers etc. and loose your focus, these circuits will be much more involved in isolating problems thus working the horn circuit may lead to solving all of them. Look for the obvious, wires that have been cut and changed or wires that have been added, burned wires. You mention you don't have a radio (stereo?), that is instantly a suspect area for wires to have been modified and connected incorrectly.

There are other things that can be diagnosed/done/tested, the problem "Vandal" reported is that of an alternator running wild and producing 48v -110v which then will blow every bulb in the car which is NOT your problem. While it's true you were cooking your battery my guess is the voltage was more likely 16-18v which allowed at least the horn fuse to blow.

Try and think back for any surrounding events when you first noticed you horn was not working. Some people are hesitant to mention that their buddy helped them do something for they don't want to think they may have done contributed to these problems.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[bryan_tberry]

Well honestly, I've never touched anything electrical on this car whatsoever, except the boost guage light, which i used the power wire and the ground that lit up my cigarette lighter. As far as the horn, it's always worked perfectly. Tomorrow, I'll be really looking into a lot of things, and just about everything GTM said. Thanks a lot by the way, you've been a huge help through this mess. Wish me luck on getting home from work tonight with no headlights! My city is pretty well lit, I just dont want to be pulled over.

 

[bryan_tberry]

Alright heres a bit of an update. I got my alternator checked and its bad, so I'll be replacing that. As mentioned earlier, I checked for any loose or cut wires that might affect anything. To my suprise, when perusing around my engine bay, I found what looked to be a severed wire coming out of the upper firewall on the drivers side. I traced it down into a small nest of wires and to my dismay, found it to be nothing more than a nest of wires all bundled up, and shoved in the corner, all leading to nowhere.

Here's a pic:

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Where do these go? There looks to be a few hot wires, and one ground. Could that be a source to any of my problems? Also, GTM, you mentioned the horn circuit possibly being a root to some more problems. Could you elaborate on what I would need to fix or replace within that circuit, and how it might tie into my turn signals and headlights? Also, speaking of headlights, I checked the bulbs to find the filaments busted and black around the inside of the bulb. I replaced the low beams with brand new bulbs to no avail. I absolutely cannot afford to drive tonight without headlights, so any insight would be amazing. This is actually my cheif concern. I'll be replacing the alternator this afternoon, and hopefully finding my headlight problem. Thanks!

 

[toybreaker]

As I said in post #3, I hate electrical problems!!! I've seen this scenerio play out a few times.

So, we've got some floaters..leftover rocket booster actuator wires,..or just stereo/alarm refugees.

There's no way to know what they did and if you still need them until you track them down, one by one, and understand what their installed function was. If you just start eliminating them without understanding what they did, it could get really ugly if it was an alarm.

It looks like siren driver wires from your picture, so I'm going to assume alarm for now, and start with the circuits you'll probably find molested.

First, disconnect the battery negative terminal.

Remove the lower dash on the drivers side.

Inspect the wires you can see...

There will probably be some tapped into the ignition switch harness on the way from the switch to the harness underneath the steering column. There's several ways to tap the ignition switch, so I won't know what to tell you untill you tell us what you see.
There will probably be some other wires tapped into the fuse box area for door locks and and door pin switches. There will likely be a wire tapping the parking light circuit as well.In this particular case we may find they tapped the headlights instead...

That's as far as I can go without more information...pics would be helpfull...

Good luck, and keep us posted!!

 

[bryan_tberry]

Hey toybreaker, thanks for the input man. And for what I beleive will be one of the final updates to this problem. The bottom line is, the dealership lied to me. They said they had repplaced ALL blown fuses. Wrong. Under the hood, my headlight fuse, horn fuse, and numerous others were bad. Most notably the headlight fuse.... the main block, not the small ones. I'm so fed up with the dealership. Also, they told me the alternator we as perfectly fine. Wrong again. Its pulling a consistent 17.9 Volts. So the alternator goes in tomorrow.... which I'm dreading, cause its a PITA install. The only problem I have is my windshield wipers. The motor is clearly trying to run them, but they just wont move. Which I assume its a relay not allowing the motor arm to pull the wiper up and down. If anybody has had a similar problem, let me know! Cause this car is almost back to the normal 75% it usually is, .

 

[toybreaker]

The thanks should go to gtm.

He nailed it in his first post. I think we should all probably all listen to the wily old guy more carefully.

The smaller fuses can be checked in place with a voltmeter or testlight.

I hate those big fuses! there's no clever may to check them installed in the car, other than visually. If we have an ohmeter, we can check them out of the car, and I think we should more strongly suggest this. I know I've been fooled a couple of times just looking at them.

Anyway, I'm just happy the issue is being resolved. And, I think credit should go where it's due.

All I did was add $4.32 to a $.50 one post resolution.

 

[GTM]

The thanks should go to gtm.
...
The smaller fuses can be checked in place with a voltmeter or testlight.

I hate those big fuses! there's no clever may to check them installed in the car, other than visually. If we have an ohmeter, we can check them out of the car, and I think we should more strongly suggest this. I know I've been fooled a couple of times just looking at them.

Anyway, I'm just happy the issue is being resolved. And, I think credit should go where it's due.

Weeeeelllllllllllllllllll I don't know about that.
..........

I rarely take a DVM to a car, perfering a "Snap On" type test light when diagnosing electrical problems. It's much faster than trying to read an actual value for you can watch out of the corner of your eye as you whip through an array of fuses at 2 per second. A DVM has a .5 second sample rate so you wait react possibly for a second sample. When probing relays many will activate or try to activate with the test light where the meter will show voltage but not allow enough current for activation. The same can be said for checking gauges such as fuel and oil pressure etc. When working upside down under the dash it's a light, it doesn't care about polarity. I will say not every one agrees with me but it might be what 40 year does for you.
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I do find it interisting that I had previously posted his Alternator might be running 16v-18v enough at 17.9v. I think _bryan_tberry_ has a beef with the repair shop for giving him incorrect info about fuses and alternator condition. It is considered neglegence to send a customer's car out with burned fuses especially if they burned while testing. The mechanic should have changed them even if didn't charge any labor as a courtesy. The exception would be if he changed them and they blew again but that too should have been written by the mechanic. He should call ask for the service manager of the shop and report what he found and has done. Unreported problems with a mechanic only allows that mechanic to continue to make mistakes and be given work which is above his skill level.
..................

What should be determined is where the voltage regulator is and if it's functioning correctly. I would recommend that all circuits be working correctly and save the alternator as the last option.

This may not be true for this alternator, again a test light is used which is connected to battery ground. With the key off probe the heavy B+ lead , _should light_. If there are 2 small wires on a plug going into the Alt. case probe them both with the key off, if memory serves 1 will be at battery voltage (same brightness) and the other will have nothing. Turn the key on, the wire that had nothing will be energized but noticiably dimmer. Start the car, the dimmer wire will get increasingly brighter as the RPM increases but not equal to that of battery. This is a simple test, takes less than 2 min but will show with at least 80% accuracy if an Alt. is functioning correctly. Another quick check which requires an Ammeter, the inductive type can be purchased for $10-$20 and doesn't require disconnecting anything. With a good reasonable well charged battery turn on everything, headlights high beam, heater fan max, wipers, A/C, heated seats, for 1 minute with the key on but the engine not running. Turn everything off and start the car, ASAP check alternator output, this should be about 75% of max output when the engine reaches 1500-2000 rpm.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
GTM