stock fuel system flooding out, no start

[Bostedquest]

Ok, trying this again...
Stock injectors, stock fuel pump, have a stock and a B&M FPR (with bolt backed fully out)

Did boost leak, as I suspected no leaks, save a small TB shaft seal. 1 PSI (from 30 - I took the intake off the car to take it that high) over 5 minutes, so I consider that very minor.
Also with tester on the car, no leaks save above.

Now the teaser...
fuel pressure is always ALWAYS above 40 Psi (actually about 42-43). Yes with the vac line hooked up too. Actually, with the stock one on it hits 45-46 Psi.

New Bosch wires
rotating 3 sets of plugs... one set at .028, .030, .035. The car has only started under the .035 plugs. And started is a strong word... ran like crap (before boost leak test(s)) for maybe 45 seconds save one time it actually ran for a few minutes. Enough to open the thermostat to top off the coolant.

Strong spark all coil plugs/wires/terminals. White core w/ lightning blue outline in good daylight.

I have no budget... it is gone, so the 180-220 aeromotive set up is out of the question.
I am considering fuel filter replacement, but I do not think it will help lower the fuel pressure.

I do have a SAFC2 that I can hook up and try to pull fuel with it... since the fuel pressure is about 23-24% (40-42 - 35-38) over stock I was going to add 20-22% to the MAF signal at 1000, 13% 2000 and tune after that because I will be in positive pressure (boost) in mid-late 2K range.
I am more then fed up with it...

Also did EGR block off/removal
all vac lines removed save the one to the FPR.

 

[steve]

Ok, trying this again...
Stock injectors, stock fuel pump, have a stock and a B&M FPR (with bolt backed fully out)
Now the teaser...
fuel pressure is always ALWAYS above 40 Psi (actually about 42-43). Yes with the vac line hooked up too. Actually, with the stock one on it hits 45-46 Psi.

How do you get 45-46 psi with a stock pump and stock regulator.
Are you sure that your gauge is correct?
Are you sure your regulators are from a turbo car?
Are you sure it's a stock pump?
Do you feel vacuum at the hose and does the fuel pressure drop when you put it on?
What exactly is the fuel pressure with the hose off

Did boost leak, as I suspected no leaks, save a small TB shaft seal. 1 PSI (from 30 - I took the intake off the car to take it that high) over 5 minutes, so I consider that very minor.
Also with tester on the car, no leaks save above.

Why did you have to take the intake off the car? It sounds like you weren't able to get reasonable pressure with it on, which implies additional leaks. Please explain.

I do have a SAFC2 that I can hook up and try to pull fuel with it... since the fuel pressure is about 23-24% (40-42 - 35-38) over stock I was going to add 20-22% to the MAF signal at 1000, 13% 2000 and tune after that because I will be in positive pressure (boost) in mid-late 2K range.
I am more then fed up with it...

First, you wouldn't add anything to the airflow signal. You would subtract it. Negative correction to remove air to confuse the ECU into spraying less fuel.
Second, because the base pressure is now higher you have to compute the effective injector size = SQRT (new pressure/old pressure) * old rate
then you have to figure out the correction % = (old flow/ new flow) - 1

It's the correction value you would enter into the SAFC and you would enter it across the board on the low settings and start with it on the high settings and then tune.

Steve

 

[Bostedquest]

How do you get 45-46 psi with a stock pump and stock regulator.
Are you sure that your gauge is correct?
Are you sure your regulators are from a turbo car?
Are you sure it's a stock pump?
Do you feel vacuum at the hose and does the fuel pressure drop when you put it on?
What exactly is the fuel pressure with the hose off


Why did you have to take the intake off the car? It sounds like you weren't able to get reasonable pressure with it on, which implies additional leaks. Please explain.



First, you wouldn't add anything to the airflow signal. You would subtract it. Negative correction to remove air to confuse the ECU into spraying less fuel.
Second, because the base pressure is now higher you have to compute the effective injector size = SQRT (new pressure/old pressure) * old rate
then you have to figure out the correction % = (old flow/ new flow) - 1

It's the correction value you would enter into the SAFC and you would enter it across the board on the low settings and start with it on the high settings and then tune.

Steve

1. I would like to know that to. Yes the guage is correct. I even removed it and checked it twice. If I knew how I was getting that high fuel pressure, I could then correct it.
2. Yes. I pulled it myself.
3. Considering everything else was stock on the car, including the locked up turbo, so yes I am pretty sure it is a stock pump. And the access cover looks like it has never been touched, still has factory paint on the bolts.
3. Yes I feel vacuum, yes the pressure drops. With the line off B&M raises to 45-47 Stock goes almost to 50.
4. I took the intake off to find the small leak. I had to submerge the damn thing to find it was the TB shaft seal. It was just so slow I had no other choice to find it. (old find the leak in the tire trick)
5. That is what I meant, trick it to think more air, to lean it out.

 

[steve]

Try getting some fuel line that fits the return port and route it into a gas can to make sure the problem isn't a restriction in the return line to eliminate one more possibility.

I use soapy water to do the same thing. So you can pressurize the whole intake to 20 psi and it holds it?

Steve

 

[Bostedquest]

Try getting some fuel line that fits the return port and route it into a gas can to make sure the problem isn't a restriction in the return line to eliminate one more possibility.

I use soapy water to do the same thing. So you can pressurize the whole intake to 20 psi and it holds it?

Steve

I will try the remote catch can for the fuel and post back later.

No it still had a slow leak. It just took about 8-9 minutes to leak 1 PSi.
The leak was just so slow that soapy water did not do anything. I knew it was loosing air because the guage was going down I would check about every 5 minutes, and checked over the course 30 minutes (when the checker was on the car).
When I submerged it, I found the leak almost instantly by the fine bubbles coming up.

 

[TurkF26]

did you check the lower insulators for the injectors for leaks???

 

[Bostedquest]

Ok, ran the return line toa gas can. No change, same pressure(s)

Yes checked the injector seats, no leaks.

 

[Bostedquest]

ok... anything else before I scrap this heap of crap?

 

[Bostedquest]

well put on SAFC2...
leaned out 24% at low settings...
still no improvement...
This thing is about a #### hair away from being parted out...
I am tired of sinking money into a car that refuses to run.

 

[Bostedquest]

Ok, got the fuel pressure to 35, 38 with vac line off....
STILL NO START?
And yes, plugs STILL getting soaked...

SAFC2 says cranking rpm is not above 200-220, is this correct or what?
I need help here guys...

I am not going to spend another dime until I get something that can help.

I am beyond furious, fed up and sick and tired... I am about ready to simply destroy the car...

 

[steve]

Ok, got the fuel pressure to 35, 38 with vac line off....

What did you do to make it work?

Steve

 

[Bostedquest]

What did you do to make it work?

Steve

Make it work? it still does not work... so as far as I am concerned I fixed nothing so far. Just wasted alot of money on a crappy car.

I also tried starting fluid...
but it still will not start...

So please tell me if 175-225 RPMS is enough to start this POS?
if not, I am looking at parting out another car and this thing is looking at junk yard retirement.

 

[Bostedquest]

OK...
replaced coil...
NO CHANGE.
Still flooding out.

Now the starter RPM's are down to 150 on all three attempts this is where it maxed out.

SO CAN SOMEONE ANSWER IF THIS RPM IS ENOUGH TO START OR WHAT!

 

[oldman]

Make it work? it still does not work...

What steve meant was how were you able to lower the fuel pressure? Another words, what did you do wrong before when you were getting 45-46psi?

What is your vacuum reading during idle? I suggest performing a compression test if you're sure you're getting spark and fuel.

 

[steve]

Now the starter RPM's are down to 150 on all three attempts this is where it maxed out.

SO CAN SOMEONE ANSWER IF THIS RPM IS ENOUGH TO START OR WHAT!

No, it's not. Charge the battery.

Why did you change the coils?
Did you do any diagnosis leading you to believe they were bad or are you just changing things because you have no idea what's wrong. Since you claimed in your first post to have a strong spark I can only assume the worst.

Steve

 

[Bostedquest]

What steve meant was how were you able to lower the fuel pressure? Another words, what did you do wrong before when you were getting 45-46psi?

What is your vacuum reading during idle? I suggest performing a compression test if you're sure you're getting spark and fuel.

Cranking, it is down to -14 or so.
Idle... HA... if it would start I would not be asking how to get it started...

Yes I know what he meant. That is no longer an issue, so that is not important as to why the car is not starting...
But if you must know... I added rubber spacer washers to gap the damn thing out.
Now I can get down to 30, and push the pump limit.
And no, it is not leaking either.

Trust me I am getting more then enough fuel.
If I remove the spark plugs, ground them and crank... very strong white flashes...
IE getting plenty of spark.

The biggest doubt I have is THE STARTER RPMS... that is why I really want THAT question answered...

So to recap...
New coil
New Plugs
New wires (bosch)
Rotating 3 sets of plugs .28, .30 and .35
NO boost leaks
Stock injectors (obviously working because they are flooding the cylinder)
The engine did start a few times once for a decent amount of time, so I am marking compression off the prob list. That and it is a fresh COMPLETE rebuild.
35 PSi fuel pressure (38 with vac line removed)

Starter RPM's max out at 150... when before they were up over 200 before.

If I am coming off harshly... sorry.. I am just way beyond fed up with this piece of absolute Shnit car...

 

[Bostedquest]

No, it's not. Charge the battery.

Why did you change the coils?
Did you do any diagnosis leading you to believe they were bad or are you just changing things because you have no idea what's wrong. Since you claimed in your first post to have a strong spark I can only assume the worst.

Steve

The battery is fully charged.
So now I am in need of a starter.

I changed the coil because the car would not even start off of starting fluid when the RPMs were above 175... So that leaves weak spark.
But yes about now I am just throwing parts at it...
And about to throw a head through the windshield...

 

[oldman]

Well, like I said before. Spark, fuel or compression. If you're sure spark and fuel is good, compression test next.

 

[crashed97tsi]

I definetely would not cross a compression check off your list, especially since the car will not start even with starter fluid. If your getting fuel and spark, then a compression check would be next on your list.

Who did your rebuild? Was it as full rebuild or just a topend rebuild?

edit: damn it beat me to it

 

[oldman]

edit: damn it beat me to it

Beaten by an oldman no less.

 

[Bostedquest]

I did the rebuild, and it is not my first one on an engine.
And yes quite full, and using good parts, to tight clearances/specs.

I considered taking compression off the list because it did run (however badly) several times. It just has been tring to start, but since I started keeping track of starter RPMs, and have been watching them fall consistantly that has been my main suspect.

After all you can have great compression, but if your not rotating fast enough no matter what your not going to start.

That is why I have been tring to find out what is the normal "cranking" rpm...
And yes, after I replace the starter I will swap back on my old coil andmake sure that was not the lone problem. If it still runs... I am getting my 86 bucks back...

 

[Bostedquest]

well...
whatever it is it is getting worse...
pulled the starter to have it tested... surprise surprise it tested good.
Got another battery...
cranked 3 times.
first time went near 200.
2nd maybe 120
3rd did not even register
Now it is not even cranking at all.
Turns easily by hand (save the spring resistance on compression/exhaust strokes)

So...
I am getting rid of it, parting it out. I am sick of it.
SO unless anyone has a sugestion...
this thing is now going up on the classifieds.

 

[crashed97tsi]

What does the battery read now? Do you have any form of data logging or anything like that? If so, does everything read properly on it, like are you getting the expected readings?

Honestly man, something like this could be related to a wiring mistake. I know this personally has happened to me ( car wouldn't start, turned out the plug came out of the back of the safc, easy fix but took a couple of minutes to find). I don't have a Maf translator, nor have I ever hooked one up so I can't help you there. But I would reread up on how to set these things up properly and start everything from scratch. If it still doesn' start after that then send it to the yard if you want.

 

[Bostedquest]

What does the battery read now? Do you have any form of data logging or anything like that? If so, does everything read properly on it, like are you getting the expected readings?

Honestly man, something like this could be related to a wiring mistake. I know this personally has happened to me ( car wouldn't start, turned out the plug came out of the back of the safc, easy fix but took a couple of minutes to find). I don't have a Maf translator, nor have I ever hooked one up so I can't help you there. But I would reread up on how to set these things up properly and start everything from scratch. If it still doesn' start after that then send it to the yard if you want.

the battery does not go below 11.6 with a load.

Had it tested as well... good.
Starter tested good.

With the progression of lower and lower cranking RPMs I figured it would HAVE to be one of those things...
So I bought a battery to starter cable today, and if I can get in the mood to even look at the car without the desire to trash it I just might put it in. As it requires me to pull the starter for the hundredth time...

I checked over the little things...
No fuel leaks at AN fittings/hoses.
No boost leaks.

Checked over all the connectors on everything.
The SAFC boots and reads fine, so it is not the problem.

Nothing is consistant with this damn car.
I fix what seems to be a problem and then something totally unrelated comes in.

1st, flooding. Ran a few times, but the next day nothing
got the fuel pressure down. Still flooded.
So weak spark maybe (but that does not make sense because just the day before it DID run) so I replace the coil. No change.
Ok maybe the wires... replace, no change. Plugs... no change. Change the gaps, no change.

So I started going over everything yesterday... looked at the ECU, it managed to blow a cap in the past week.
No damage, fine ganked the old caps out waiting for the new ones now.

But that does not explain the no crank.
I even went as far to totally unhook my turbo timer... no change.

I do not have a MAF/T, or else I would not have the SAFC...

Not a damn thing is making sense at all.
None of the ECU or under hood wires have been hacked into, there was a dealer installed alarm that I pulled, but it was all plug in and that was removed months ago so that is not the issue.

When I turn the key to on, I can hear the fuel pump kick on, so the trigger relay is fine...
Just nothing is making sense... It is not logical at all...