new engine, no start

[Vans]

allright so i few weeks ago i fired up the 2.3L i built in my 90 eclipse. it fired right up on the first try after i primed it, sounded perfect for one second and then died.

i still have not figured out what caused it die

i checked for spark and there was none, now a new coil later theres spark, but still it just cranks over and doesnt start

im at a loss for more things to check, the ignition and mpi fuses right by the battery are good, i pulled the ecu out and it looks brand new, the only thing i can think of right now is to pull the timing cover and make sure thats still good. im pretty sure it is tho because the #4 cylinder looks TDC when the dowel pins are at 12 oclock

also it has compression, but it worries me its only about 75 across the board. however it did run for that one second so that shouldnt be whats holding it back. however i didnt check the compression before i fired it the first time. im pretty stumped so any advice or things to check would be very appreciated

 

[RossY]

Well, you know your getting spark now so before moving on you may want to look at your firing order. When i got a coild pack for my car, my firing order ended being different and that caused it not to start. It took me about 4 times of checking to actually realize i had the firing order wrong.

After you check that you can be pretty sure its not electrical. So next would be fuel. If you hold your fuel rail and have someone crank the car do you see a mist of fuel shooting out from your injectors? Look closely for that, my fuel pump died on me and i wasn't getting fuel to my injectors.

If your getting fuel, and your getting spark and its sparking the same chamber to which fuel is being fed and still not starting it may be your compression. Now obviously 75 is low...way low. Did you try putting a little oil in the cylinders and see if that raised the compression? How long did you crank it for? You should always have the throttle wide open when testing as well.

Now even if your compression is shot to hell, you should still be getting at least some combustion. Do you get any random pops when cranking where one of the cylinders ignites?

BTW is this a fresh rebuild or just a drop in or what

 

[Vans]

well i know the firing order is right ive messed it up before and im real sure its right this time

i didnt pull the fuel rail off like that to check but i did smell gas on the brand new plugs so i figured fuel wasnt a problem

i completely didnt think of opening the throttle while checking the compression ill post if its any different. whats driving me nuts is that it DID fire up for only one second so i feel like the compression must be ok

its a fresh rebuild, 2.3L crank, eagle rods, weisco stroker piston kit with rings

oh about any random pops, not really, it just sounds like a car normally does when its cranking but never actually starts

 

[GTM]

well i know the firing order is right ive messed it up before and im real sure its right this time
...
i completely didnt think of opening the throttle while checking the compression ill post if its any different.
...
whats driving me nuts is that it DID fire up for only one second so i feel like the compression must be ok

Always wide open throttle, 3-4 compressions for each cylr.

Any chance you have the CAS in 180 degrees out?

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Vans]

Any chance you have the CAS in 180 degrees out?

yeah i thought about it, but when i put the CAS in the first time i lined up the notch on the rotor with the notch on the CAS body, the put it in the cam with the dowels at 12oclock and #1 at TDC.

also i dont think if i had screwed it up the car wouldnt have fired up the first time, keep in mind it did start for a second and then died, thanks for taking a shot at it ill probably double check it anyway

 

[RossY]

Well, you may also want to check your timing belt as well. When my belt skipped a few teeth and messed my valves up it was on start up. I cranked the car and it started for about 2-3 seconds and then died. My valves had ran into my pistons. I took the valve cover off and the rockers were so loose i could take them out by hand. Hopefully thats not your problem, it would suck to replace the valve train after you just rebuilt the engine.

 

[dave99gst]

any chance the CAS is fryed ? ECU ? ignition modual ?

 

[Vans]

i pulled the ecu and it looked fine, are there any other tests i can do to it without a scanner?

ive got to work tonight so on wed i think my plan is to check the cas with the multi meter, the ignition transistor below the coil(is that the same thing as the ignition module?) and im gonna pull the timing cover and check the crank mark because the cams still line up

 

[Vans]

ok now im really confused

i figured i had the time tonight to just check out the CAS with the multi meter. i turned the key on, grounded the meter to the battery, and checked for a supply voltage on the harness side of the CAS connection. nothing. no volts. i went back and forth to the + battery terminal where i got a reading(12 volts) and to the connection where i didnt.

how is this possible? i didnt think it could make a spark if the CAS isnt getting power. all i did since i saw the wires spark was check the compression, and take the ecu out and put it back in. the check engine light is also not being tripped

 

[GTM]

ok now im really confused

i figured i had the time tonight to just check out the CAS with the multi meter. i turned the key on, grounded the meter to the battery, and checked for a supply voltage on the harness side of the CAS connection. nothing.

how is this possible? i didnt think it could make a spark if the CAS isnt getting power. all i did since i saw the wires spark was check the compression, and take the ecu out and put it back in

I don't have a diagram, but if the cas is acting like a magneto then put your multi meter on the cas and spin it even with your hand, you should see voltage. Check with ohm meter and see if that changes. I think you will feel resistance at different intervals as the magnets encounter an iron core or other magnets. That would account for 2 wires, not sure about the other 1-2 but they may also generate signals.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Vans]

ok, i tested the cas like gtm said

i pulled it out of the car, grounded the meter to the black wire on the cas, got about 4ohms going to the red wire, the other werent making a connection. there was no change in the reading from the red wire when i spun the rotor it read steady the whole time. testing for voltage gave me nothing on any of them even when i spun the rotor around.

oh and in my post before this i didnt have the mpi fuse in. whoops. so i do have voltage on the harness side of the connection...

i bid on a cas on ebay because i figured this means its bad so hopefully this will fix it. if it is broken though, how come it generated a spark? or can it generate a spark with a broken cas? i guess what im saying is, seeing the spark jump from the wire to a ground guaruntees what parts are working?

 

[GTM]

ok, i tested the cas like gtm said

i pulled it out of the car, grounded the meter to the black wire on the cas, got about 4ohms going to the red wire, the other werent making a connection. there was no change in the reading from the red wire when i spun the rotor it read steady the whole time. testing for voltage gave me nothing on any of them even when i spun the rotor around.
...

If you tried all possible combinations and found an open circuit then this may be it. On thinking about it 2 wires could control the injectors and 2 wires control the spark.

Lets keep our fingers crossed.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

If you tried all possible combinations and found an open circuit then this may be it. On thinking about it 2 wires could control the injectors and 2 wires control the spark.
...

Take a look at post #4 on this thread, not sure if they are the same but make sure. It won't hurt to have a spare CAS around as long as you don't overpay.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174626

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Vans]

so i figured id finally pull the timing cover and check the valve timing while im waiting for my new cas

it turns out it slipped and its pretty far off. the intake cam is 5 teeth below the mark, the exhaust cam is 4 teeth above where it should be with the crank mark at TDC. i was getting about 85-95 compression when i rechecked it with the throttle wide open.

should i just redo the timing or pull the head and check for bent valves? i noticed that the wiseco pistons had significantly bigger valve releifs than the stockers, is there any chance they make the motor non-interference?

 

[Vans]

allright, well it turned out to just be the valve timing. i just went ahead and reset it, and she fired right up. guess ill have a spare cas. thanks for all the help

 

[GTM]

allright, well it turned out to just be the valve timing. i just went ahead and reset it, and she fired right up. guess ill have a spare cas. thanks for all the help

That's good news!! I can only guess that when you were checking resistance on the CAS you must have had the meter set incorrectly to have registered an over range of 1. The correct resistance values should have been given in the repair manual. As you can see every time you introduce another variable the diagnostics get more complicated. While you would not suspect it jumped time it's easy enough to check inside a couple of minutes. It seems that these belts just won't handle being turned CCW if you accidentally pass the crank timing mark and don't want to pull it through 700 degrees.

Some things still don't add up such as no spark at times unless that was the fuse you had left disconnected at some time. The fact it ran for 1 minute and then died isn't computing either unless that's when it jumped time. I would certainly want to make sure the belt is properly tensioned but if you had not lubed the cams you could have had too much resistance.

Let us know how it runs.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Vans]

allright, i think its safe to update this now. car seems to be running well and not doing anything too crazy anymore last friday i put the driveshaft back in and all the other little things that were keeping it from moving down the road, and its been getting me around all weekend pretty good.

i decided to go with the hard break-in thats described in the shop manual. i did 6 passes at full throttle from 30-50mph in 3rd gear letting it decel in gear inbetween each pass, boosting about 8.5lbs(no mbc right now). felt awesome. the book says to drive it "normal" after that, i havent gone over 55 and rarely build a few pounds of boost getting up to speed from a stoplight or something.

this threads getting more and more off topic and maybe i should make a new one, but i did a lot in the 8 months it was parked, and one thing i noticed is the 2600 feels just like stock to me. ive read a ton of posts of people saying how hard this thing is to drive and i honestly dont think i could pass a clutch "taste test" between a stocker and the 2600. is it just a difference of opinion or something to worry about? it doesnt slip, smell, jerk or anything...i also havent driven stick for 8 months either...

 

[RossY]

As long as it was installed properly and bled correctly and seems to be functioning right then i wouldn't worry about it. My clutch feels the same as stock and ive run 26psi on my evo 16g without slipping. I think my old 98 mustang v6 had a stiffer clutch than the 2600.

 

[GTM]

allright, i think its safe to update this now. car seems to be running well and not doing anything too crazy anymore
...
i decided to go with the hard break-in thats described in the shop manual. i did 6 passes at full throttle from 30-50mph in 3rd gear letting it decel in gear inbetween each pass, boosting about 8.5lbs(no mbc right now).
...
one thing i noticed is the 2600 feels just like stock to me. ive read a ton of posts of people saying how hard this thing is to drive and i honestly dont think i could pass a clutch "taste test" between a stocker and the 2600. is it just a difference of opinion or something to worry about? it doesnt slip, smell, jerk or anything...i also havent driven stick for 8 months either...

Congratulations!
..............
Yes, this is the same break-in procedure I've used for decades but been hesitant to recommend with so many after-market pistons, rings and fitting clearances being employed. In some cases this information is not even published by these companies as if they have not done their homework for their own products.
................

What you need to know is a new diaphragm clutch will always feel softer than a worn clutch. This is due to the design of overcenter spring plate as well as the overcenter pedal spring employed. A close example of an overcenter spring can be found in a home wall switch which turns on a light. You will feel resistance at first but then becomes easier the last part of the throw. Unlike the switch, however, the disk wears and the pressure plate fingers will raise up, this then requires more pressure and travel to reach the overcenter position so the clutch will feel heavier the more it wears even though it's on the verge of slipping. Of course improper machining or requested pressure increase of the flywheel can change some of this.

Cheers,
GTM