Air atomizing nozzle arrived today....

[forcefed86]

Came across one of these on ebay for $15. I had to see what one of these nozzles were all about. I couldn't tell from the pictures and everyone was being so secretive.

Anyway here are the pics. It's just an open oriface to teh side of a of needle jet type nozzle hole.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

But at least now I know....

There's no way this will atomize finely enough for pre-turbo injection.

It does look slightly different from the "rice racing" units pictured below though.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[slowgsr]

The 3rd picture you posted, the nozzle down in the middle of the thing looks very similar to the nozzle found on my HVLP paint gun.

 

[Rob10_99]

Yeah that's for sure a HVLP handheld type sprayer, one of those small ones it looks to be.

What's that brass one claiming it does?
In order for that ricer race one to work it would need a high volume of air at a low psi of 5-10psi to adequately mist.

 

[forcefed86]

Yea' that’s what I was saying over in the 'Pre-compressor methanol injection'‏ thread. They do have nozzles similar to the one I bought that have the hvlp type discharges. I ordered a catalog a few days back should be getting it soon.

The RICE racing (it’s his last name, not a ricer thing ) unit was claiming 5 microns. But of course won’t give me specifics on air/fluid pressures.

 

[dsm-onster]

Any typical water injection nozzle is fine for preturbo with about 100-150psi. It's where you inject the mist. There's VERY few reports of compressor damage due to preturbo injection. And none where those employ a spray nozzle directed right a the compressor hub.

. . . WRT fine mist. Mechanically turning the particles to almost a gas isn't important with wet compression. The compressor produces enough heat energy to instantly change the state of the injected liquid. That's the point. The state change at the compressor exducer is what's important and keeping the droplets off the inducer tips is all that's required.

 

[99gst_racer]

forcefed86 - Have you done any testing with this nozzle yet? I'd be interested to see a video of it's spray pattern misting into open atmosphere.

 

[endeffect0]

its an interesting concept. just to be clear, are you supposed to supply the nozzle with both pressurized air and water.

we certainly have a high volume of air at low pressure that can be sourced easily... but what worries me is that their is no pressure differential if you were to do anything other than pre turbo. how could this work placed in the ICP.

 

[forcefed86]

forcefed86 - Have you done any testing with this nozzle yet? I'd be interested to see a video of it's spray pattern misting into open atmosphere.

The air orifice of the nozzle is much to large for our needs. I would need to source out a nozzle more like the first pictures. Haven't been able to find one. I have found suppliers over seas (china) that sell them. But I'd have to purchase 100 or more. I wrote to several companies and have heard nothing back.

Would look very similar to this...(hope thats the right video, can't see it at work)

http://www.riceracing.com.au/Videos/demonstration-water-injection.wmv

its an interesting concept. just to be clear, are you supposed to supply the nozzle with both pressurized air and water.

we certainly have a high volume of air at low pressure that can be sourced easily... but what worries me is that their is no pressure differential if you were to do anything other than pre turbo. how could this work placed in the ICP.

Yes, air and water. I'm not sure if they are tapping the air source from the turbo, or using compressed air. Can't seem to get a straight answer from anyone. Looking at the spray pattern of my paint gun at 20-30psi is pretty impressive though I must say.

This would only be used for pre-turbo injection.

 

[endeffect0]

well if its pre turbo then it should be all good. heck, i cant do the calculations off hand but if your putting out jsut 10 psi into that nozzle pre turbo. the negative pressure of the air being sucked into the turbo combined with just a few psi of boost at the nozzle should provide all the energy you need. Its all about pressure differentials after all..

now because no air is lost from the system i see no reason you couldnt set it up to run pressure from the turbo. However i do wonder where the break even point would be with leaking boost into your intake pre turbo in order to make you turbo more efficient. who knows, stranger things have worked.. but still.

 

[1995gsx20g]

im sure a fixed orifice of the proper size will take care of the loss of boost from the turbo to the intake. but i have no clue how to crunch the numbers on that one
probably gonna have to do a lot of trial and error.

 

[endeffect0]

its true, its not an open ended system. so there will be some restriction. but i am just a little concerned about the High Volume part of the HVLP set up. my air compressor does run a fair bit while i paint. and its of a fairly medium shop size.

i think this is a case of test and see. crunching numbers will only give us hypothesizes, data and results build theories.



edit: its interesting to note that a fellow going by the name of Rice Racing had some interesting things to say in a thread that was recently linked to by another member. Waterinjection :: View topic - Pre Turbo Injection - How Much and When to Inject

the fellow sounds quite experienced.

 

[1995gsx20g]

its true, its not an open ended system. so there will be some restriction. but i am just a little concerned about the High Volume part of the HVLP set up. my air compressor does run a fair bit while i paint. and its of a fairly medium shop size.

i think this is a case of test and see. crunching numbers will only give us hypothesizes, data and results build theories.

so this may steer clear of the pressurized air/water idea due to the problem of getting enough volume with the loss of boost. but its still worth a try. i think a high psi pump ex.250psi is enough to atomize the water to spray on the compressor wheel. its an economical way of doing it with less problems but i am going to stop now.

 

[endeffect0]

your probably dead right. but then again people though high compression NA v8's were good enough for drag racing, till some one added some boost and some laughing gas to the equation. now look where we are .

^ i realize that comment is irrelevant, point is you always gotta try new things.

 

[1995gsx20g]

your probably dead right. but then again people though high compression NA v8's were good enough for drag racing, till some one added some boost and some laughing gas to the equation. now look where we are .

^ i realize that comment is irrelevant, point is you always gotta try new things.

i know exactly where your coming from but in my head i read your post about a lot of volume required for it to spray correctly and right away i started thinking of solutions and none of them were simple anymore.
ex.
-a/c compressor pumping 100psi at the disposal of for pre-comp injection
-electric powered air pump.
-or a tank and you fill it up with compressed air more like a scuba tank(3000psi) with a regulator on it.

i know im a bit crazy but this is what was floating around in my head and then i said stop it, keep it simple, the main objective is POWER

 

[endeffect0]

well i suspect that those snails we keep bolting to our manifolds would be more than capable of supplying it.

its interesting to note that the HVLP gun in my garage only wants about 10 psi and 7-10CFM.. i feel like we could generate that with a hose off of the compressor housing no problem. again still a boost leak back into the intake. but not too complicated.

if you wanted to make it interesting you could look into reusing the air from the BOV between shifts. that way, at least under hard driving conditions you would be constantly supplying the nozzle with compressed air.

 

[1995gsx20g]

well i suspect that those snails we keep bolting to our manifolds would be more than capable of supplying it.

its interesting to note that the HVLP gun in my garage only wants about 10 psi and 7-10CFM.. i feel like we could generate that with a hose off of the compressor housing no problem. again still a boost leak back into the intake. but not too complicated.

if you wanted to make it interesting you could look into reusing the air from the BOV between shifts. that way, at least under hard driving conditions you would be constantly supplying the nozzle with compressed air.

i would love to try this all now but my car isnt the best candidate. i got 2 get it running the way i want it 2.

^your right, now that i think about it 10cfm is kind of a lot for a compressor. its nothing for a 20g pumping 600ish cfm. its only about 6%.

 

[forcefed86]

For those running nitrous. It would be extremely easy to regulate the pressure down to something reasonable. This would also chill the h20 while providing more than enough pressure and volume to break the water down to the 3-5 micron range.

Lots of big turbo guys out there run a 50-75 shot to get the turbo going. Would be fun to design a pre-injection kit incorporating the nitrous.

 

[1995gsx20g]

For those running nitrous. It would be extremely easy to regulate the pressure down to something reasonable. This would also chill the h20 while providing more than enough pressure and volume to break the water down to the 3-5 micron range.

Lots of big turbo guys out there run a 50-75 shot to get the turbo going. Would be fun to design a pre-injection kit incorporating the nitrous.

now your on to something, scratch the scuba tank. nitrous is way better.
i think im gonna make that last sentence my sig

 

[forcefed86]

Sounds like "Rice Racing" isn't using much pressure at all. Just a volume chamber and boost. Doesn't even use a pump from what I can read. Wonder if one of those nozzles could handle 250psi head pressure.

I gotta get me one of those nozzles!

A pressure vessel is linked to manifold pressure (open link, no one way valves etc) this pressure being tied to intake manifold pressure determines the fluid line pressure and thus the delivery rate is in proportion to the vessel pressure, it works in an acceptable fashion on most high performance single turbo cars in regards to metering. What happens in this basic form is that at peak boost there is a higher water to fuel ratio or percentage (lets say maybe 35%) and as revs rise past peak torque/boost onwards to peak power point the ratio can come back to a more correct target say of 20%. It naturally delivers more fluid where its needed mostly at peak cylinder pressures (and over doses a bit at lower revs if the boost builds up quickly) but if the AFR is kept anywhere north of 11.11:1 then the power losses of this brief over water rate is below 5% in my experience.

ahhhhh now from this pressure vessel it goes to a filter stage, then a solenoid (which is ok enough to be used with 50/50 water meth) and is controllable enough to be used off a PWM circuit on an ECU that has this function if you want to fine tune the delivery rate at lower rpm's etc. then to the water side of the nozzel.

The other side of the nozzel is plumbed to the same pressure source and it blows a small volume of air out two small orifices which explode the stream of water into finer droplets, which generally are fine enough to allow it to be used on the lower pressure side of a turbo inlet system (between air cleaner and compressor wheel). From my research of war time WI tests this injection location will give a maximum air flow increase of around 4%... so will make your compressor flow 4% more for the same given rotational speed, after this amount the effect gets saturated from the info I have been able to find on the topic.

In its simplest form the WI system is turned on by boost pressure, via an adjustable pressure switch, but in my case I control it off the ECU though I do not trim the delivery rate its set to 100% values so its on or off and flow is determined by boost pressure. Good thing about this is its relative to boost so the more boost you run the more water flow and its basic and seems to work ok for me. The water nozzle has a precision flow control valve so the rate can be adjusted from 100cc to 850cc/minute, according to my calcs at 20% WtoF that should cover a 2.6lt motor to 1000bhp in turbo form.

I have a link to the video, can't seem to post it on the forum...


(on lap top you can see VBOX telemetry of pressure transducers mounted in the water line and air line, doing calibration)

That's roughly everything about it. Once again I cant pay enough respect to the old boys who I got this idea from back when I was doing my engineering diploma and dreaming of one day having a turbo rotary that I could make fast I progressed through weber jets just squirting solid streams of water doh! to running mixes of meth to water cause I could never get it to work with stock ignition, and then not really knowing much about the flow rates to effects or any real progress, I wanted to give up on WI as I thought it was "shit" but when I had one engine fail I decided to look into it properly found the right nozzels, pulled my finger out and tested the flow rates, upgraded the ignition system and the rest as they say is history........ I would never ever run a car without water injection, the more I research it over these years and through my own experiences the more I love the stuff. Sadly its only a topic of interest for engineering types I have foudn over the years its because I honestly believe you need to have some formal thermodynamics and engineering exposure or qualifications to understand all of the old reports you can find these days thanks to the internet. Most enthusiast have no hope let alone performance shops and lord help us the current age of internet only businesses and forum guru's who seem to pop up at a seemingly exponential rate these days.

I love this forum and all of the smart people on it who have contributed and know just how great WI is, it feels a bit stupid talking about this as it was all done and realized to a very high level of understanding during the war in the 1940's, but we can only hope the good word gets spread and many others can benefit from what we are lucky to know

 

[endeffect0]

... interesting.

So my interpretation of this is that... he in not using a pump. Just a sealed reservoir of water with a boost line from the intake manifold(w/ one way valve). because its a sealed vessel this supplies all the pressure for the water injection system between that and the preturbo nozzle he has a rpm triggered solenoid switch. and it sounds like that is incrementally adjustable to tune flow.

the air side of the nozzle is also sourced at the manifold and is their by dependent on boost as is the pressure and volume of water at the nozzle.

Very clever.

injection location will give a maximum air flow increase of around 4%... so will make your compressor flow 4% more for the same given rotational speed

boy would i like to pick this guys brain. perhaps send him a message saying you purchased his nozzle and we have a discussion going on about it on this forum, maybe he would stop in and learn us something

 

[forcefed86]

... interesting.

So my interpretation of this is that... he in not using a pump. Just a sealed reservoir of water with a boost line from the intake manifold(w/ one way valve). because its a sealed vessel this supplies all the pressure for the water injection system between that and the preturbo nozzle he has a rpm triggered solenoid switch. and it sounds like that is incrementally adjustable to tune flow.

the air side of the nozzle is also sourced at the manifold and is their by dependent on boost as is the pressure and volume of water at the nozzle.

Very clever.

boy would i like to pick this guys brain. perhaps send him a message saying you purchased his nozzle and we have a discussion going on about it on this forum, maybe he would stop in and learn us something

The nozzle I purchased was not his. It was just an air atomizing nozzle I found on ebay. The design I have is totally different. His is exactly like an HPV gun. And is volume adjustable. He also has an adjustable knob to control air flow built into the pushlock fastner on the nozzle.

I'm not undersanding the purpose of the air vessel? You can see it on the background on his bench testing. Just looks like a large plastic tube? Why would this be necessary?

From what I could see the vessel is pressurized first. Then there are 2 leads coming from the vessel. One to the tank, one to the nozzle. Solenoids are pre nozzle, post tank. Also by the looks of this video when he shuts off the solenoids the water stops immediatly. I don't really see any "after spray". Not sure why this is since his solenoids are not mounted directly on the nozzle.



In his latest video you can actually see the pressure transducers on both sides of the nozzle. Not much pressure at all!

 

[1995gsx20g]

i think the use of the vessel is kinda of like a vacuum reservoir. possibly to keep pressures up long enough to shift with out losing the injection. its genius!

does your hpv gun keep spraying when you let off of the trigger no.(if it did it would spit and mess up the paint or drip) Maby its because the trigger is so close to the nozzle.. but i think it could just be that the nozzle hole is so small that the surface tension of the water or paint seals the nozzle and doesnt let air in the nozzle so the paint or water cannot come out. but that is just my .02

 

[endeffect0]

on the topic of over spray or leak down. I was talking about this in the other preturbo meth thread. the leak down seen even with check valved is because we are operating a 250psi pump with a 15 psi check valve. the instant the pump is shut off the pressure in the line drops, because the tube it self hold some pressure and water pressure does not go strait to zero you have a period of declining pressure leaking past the check valve untill it reaches below 15psi when the check valve actually closes.

check valves are great for preventing siphoning, but rubbish at preventing trickle down. as i stated in the other thread having a solenoid mounted close to the head shows a very sharp and instantaneous cut off, and the if you have it set to open after the pump has pressurized, or in this case after teh turbo has spooled, their can be no weak partially atomizing stream before the pressure really kicks in . although i think this is only a issue in a trunk mount setup like my test piece was.

on the 'vessel' mentioned in the quoted text i am sure that is just the container of smurf juice that is pressurized with air from the manifold, although i am sure once some of the fluid is used and the volume to be occupied by air increases it would serve as a resoviour of compressed air between gears . of course the down side is that when the larger volume needs to be filled after the shift their would be a delay and decrease in pressure during.


I would love to see that video, where are you quoting his text from and where can the video be found.

 

[endeffect0]

check this out.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[1995gsx20g]

the solenoid makes alot more sence.

if the pump is able to handle the job of pressurizing the vessel is really shouldn't drop down so maby with a combination of the two it would be a very steady supply of smurf juice.

is his website the only source of the quotes and pics?

i read the lesson in history link about frank walker and love it.
i ended up writing an unproper paper on the thoughts that went threw my mind the following day. let me know if you wanna read it and ill post it up or pm it to you.