Pre-compressor methanol injection

[99gst_racer]

Has anybody here already done it?

I'm going to pick up a kit to do it on Friday (early Christmas gift to myself), but I'm still trying to learn as much as possible before I go to use it.

I plan to use a single 14GPH nozzle misting into each compressor inlet. I will be using a single 150 psi pump and will be using straight methanol.

If anyone else has done this before, please chime in with details on your set-up. I'm primarily concerned with nozzle size and location. I'd also love to hear about the perfromance difference as well as before and after IAT changes.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

I believe turboglenn was going to do this in his thread. Did you read through it yet? http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/nit...7-official-no-fmic-meth-how-well-will-do.html Silly noobs.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=267

 

[romeen]

IMO 14GPH is too big of a nozzle to be using pre-compressor. I would be worried about damage to the compressor blades. This is something that is likely to happen regardless but you can minimize it by taking steps to keep droplet size as small as possible.

If you do decide that you want to inject 14GPH pre-compressor then I think it would be better to use multiple smaller nozzles which in total add up to 14GPH. That should create smaller droplet sizes compared to using a single large nozzle.

You might even consider using one of the higher pressure pumps. Again, this should create better atomization of the water/meth. I know that Devil's Own offers a 250psi pump. I haven't checked the others.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/250-psi-pump-281.html

The thread in the Aquamist forums that Adam provided the link to is a great read. I went through it some time ago. IIRC, they even experimented with aiming the nozzles at the center of the compressor.

 

[99gst_racer]

95blackGsTurbo - Thanks for the links, Adam. Those were some pretty good reads.


romeen - The recomendation for the 14 gph nozzles came from Rodney, the owner of AlcoholInjectionSystems.com. I had talked to him on the phone earlyier this week and told him everything about my set-up. He had recommended that I run that large of a nozzle because I was going to use straight methanol.

I had planned to pick up the meth kit this afternoon, but now it looks like I'm buying myself a new Blackberry instead. But, as soon as I do get that meth kit (in a month or so), I'll do some testing with the nozzle's spray pattern and see which is the best pre-compressor location for the nozzle. The idea of using two smaller nozzles is a pretty good idea. A local buddy of mine sells meth injection kits, so maybe I'll pick up a few nozzles from him and do some testing. Rodney didn't seem to be concerned at all about injecting methanol with a 14gph nozzle inches away from the compressor wheel, so maybe I have nothing to worry about. Most of the cases of errosion that I've seen were due to running mostly water and poor positioning of the nozzle that promoted puddling.

 

[Devilsown]

Oh never run that much threw the compressor. Sounds like we had something crossed. You should have no issues running that much methanol threw the motor. I would recomend if your going to put a nozzle pre compressor to go no larger than a 1gph nozzle and run another nozzle after to make up your gph.

Also my name is chance,

 

[99gst_racer]

Oh never run that much threw the compressor. Sounds like we had something crossed. You should have no issues running that much methanol threw the motor. I would recomend if your going to put a nozzle pre compressor to go no larger than a 1gph nozzle and run another nozzle after to make up your gph.

Also my name is chance,

Sorry about the typo. It was Rodney at AlcoholInjectionSystems.com that had recommended that large of a nozzle.

Thanks for chiming in, Chance. I'll give you a call in a bit to pick your brain and discuss my set-up.

 

[spoonman]

It is not a good idea to inject chemical cooling before the compressor. Like Romeen stated you can possibly damage the compressor blades, but the main reason not to have water/meth injected before the compressor is that the compressor will separate the liquid from the air charge. This leads to large droplets of water/meth and poolingin the compressor housing.

The earliest turbocharged engines where pull-through carburetors mounted before the turbocharger, the problem with this is that the A/F ratios would vary greatly because the fuel was being separated in the compressor housing.

 

[99gst_racer]

It is not a good idea to inject chemical cooling before the compressor. Like Romeen stated you can possibly damage the compressor blades, but the main reason not to have water/meth injected before the compressor is that the compressor will separate the liquid from the air charge. This leads to large droplets of water/meth and poolingin the compressor housing.

The earliest turbocharged engines where pull-through carburetors mounted before the turbocharger, the problem with this is that the A/F ratios would vary greatly because the fuel was being separated in the compressor housing.

I haven't done any hands-on testing with pre-compressor injection yet, so all I have is what I've read and what I've seen other guys do with it. But, from what I've read, methanol has a high surface tension and will flash off and evaporate almost immediately after being introduced to the heated atmosphere of a compressor. This will be especially true for my car being that I have higher-than-average IATs due to having a compressor feeding another compressor.

After talking with a few domestic guys running pre-comp. injection on centrifugal blown cars, there is hardly any methanol left in the air charge upon exit of the compressor housing. They also mention that methanol is less dense than water, so injecting pure methanol into a compressor will have a softer impact on the compressor wheel itself. It's also worth noting that fluid atomization and the nozzle location have great affect over compressor wheel erosion/damage (if any). If one was injecting pure methanol at high pressure, though a very small orifice, I really find it hard to believe that all of the 10-micron sized droplets of evaporating methanol are going to cause damage on impact. Again, this is purely speculation on my part.

What proof do you have the the compressor separate the liquid from the air? Can you explain how and why this occurs? I'm only curious because it contradicts most of what I've been learning. Everything I'm reading says that it evaporates before it exits, so I cannot fathom how there would be time for separation or puddling (not to mention the laws of physics that these events follow). I've also talked to guys that have mounted cabs on compressor inlets successfully. Hal Landry did it on a go cart if I remember correctly.

For every person that has claimed pre-injection caused compressor failure, I've found 50 people saying it works flawlessly on their car. Most guys are running superchargers, so maybe the RPM of the compressor has a large affect... Nozzle placement has also got to play a large affect. I had planned to mount mine within 4 inches of the compressor so that there was no chance of puddling before it entered the compressor inlet.

 

[turbo23]

Here is some of the research I have done in the past few days, about injecting pre-compressor.

use on a vortek
My T trim impeller after running 20 gallons of 50/50 meth - Corral Forums

Pic of how cosworth did this in the mid 80s XB seris engine.
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/XB Engine Pictures/PCI.jpg

A thread in YB
Anyone using Meth INJ making big power - Yellow Bullet Forums

I've done lots of research on this over the last few days, and what I find is that everyong that has tried have been very happy. Now, I have found about 4 or so people that have had impeller damage. it seemed that in these cases they were using large amounts of water, and more time than not, had the nossles in a poor location. I'm also finding that not very many people have treid this, and even though lots of people haven't treid it, they all say not to do it. but yet everyone that does (other than a couple) have been more than happy. So, we'll just have to try it and see what happens.

 

[Car Cannibal]

Rodney has been suggesting and selling 14gph preturbo nozzles to big block guys for years and they still think it's ok that it puddles in the intercooler?

Yes Meth will dissipate faster and is less dense but not when you're sending a mist through a 14gph nozzle is that soft on the compressor wheel. Who knows when they even turn it on but forget that situation.

I'd have no probs running upto a 6gph nozzle preturbo if it were pure Meth and set to come up in the upper teens so the comp wheel was nice and toasty and then you planned on running 30+psi.

Otherwise, I run a 2gph nozzle on a Devils Own Universal kit and it raised boost 1psi, totally worth doing.

 

[turbo23]

Cannibal, what experience do you have doing this that leads you to believe a 14gph would be too much? I also believe that it is a lot to be throwing at the compressor wheel, but at the same time, the cosworth XB engine injected 50% of there fuel pre-compressor, and I'm knowing thats more than a single 14GPH nozzle. I don't know what kinda of issues they had because of it... I'd really like to talk to someone that has actually done this, not just speculation.

 

[99gst_racer]

Thanks for the post, Car Cannibal. Are you running your Devil's Own kit pre-compressor?

 

[Sp1kE]

I have also been doing quite a bit or research of preturbo injection.
First off I have been told by the meth gods that for preturbo injection do NOT use meth. You want to use straight water. Apparently meth only dissapates about 1/3 of the heat that water does. Which is the primary goal for preturbo. Also with the pre turbo you do not need to run very big pumps as it doesnt take as much pressure to spray and atomize the tiny nozzles that you use and they do not have to overcome the pipe pressure when spraying post turbo.
I have been told that 6gph nozzel will be fine and still atomize enough to not corrode the wheel.

The best way to do water injection, is to use 2 pumps, 1 for preturbo with pure water, and one big pump for post turbo running meth.

 

[99gst_racer]

First off I have been told by the meth gods that for preturbo injection do NOT use meth. You want to use straight water. Apparently meth only dissapates about 1/3 of the heat that water does. Which is the primary goal for preturbo.

Copied from AIS' website:

"A better choice for pre-compressor injection is a greater concentration of methanol vs. water or pure methanol. Methanol instantly flashes (evaporating) as soon as it enters into a hot compressor and meets the heat within it. By using an alcohol, this dramatically reduces the amount of actual fluid exiting the compressor due to it's fast evaporation. Additionally, methanol offers much greater cooling effect then water. Furthermore, methanol is also less dense then water thereby having a softer impact on the impeller. The specific gravity of pure methanol is .792 @ 68° F compared to water which is 1.00 @ 64° F."




So, who's right and who's wrong?

Things that we do know about methanol:
* Methanol has a lower surface tension
* This lower surface tension aids in a much quicker evaporation
* The cooling happens during it's evapotation

 

[Sp1kE]

I don't know what to say?

I found this copied from the Devil's Own fourms.

"the water will only cool when it can evaporate, but as soon as the relative humidity of the intake air hits 100% you're done.

Methanol doesn't care that the air is saturated with water, and still evaporate (ok, in truth it evaporates first, but they don't compete each other). Isopropyl doesn't compete with water or methanol either... how ethanol fits in, I don't know...

but water has the largest cooling capacity of all "

 

[Boiler2]

Turbo drag bikes have been injecting methanol or nitrous pre-compressor for years.

 

[romeen]

Copied from AIS' website:

"A better choice for pre-compressor injection is a greater concentration of methanol vs. water or pure methanol. Methanol instantly flashes (evaporating) as soon as it enters into a hot compressor and meets the heat within it. By using an alcohol, this dramatically reduces the amount of actual fluid exiting the compressor due to it‘s fast evaporation. Additionally, methanol offers much greater cooling effect then water. Furthermore, methanol is also less dense then water thereby having a softer impact on the impeller. The specific gravity of pure methanol is .792 @ 68° F compared to water which is 1.00 @ 64° F."




So, who's right and who's wrong?

Things that we do know about methanol:
* Methanol has a higher surface tension
* This higher surface tension aids in a much quicker evaporation
* The cooling happens during it's evapotation

Water has a higher latent heat of vaporization and is therefore able to cool more than methanol. However, methanol evaporates faster than water which makes it extremely effective for the brief amount of time it has in the intake tract.

I don't think that methanol has a higher surface tension than water. Also, wouldn't a higher surface tension cause a liquid to evaporate slower?

 

[99gst_racer]

Water has a higher latent heat of vaporization and is therefore able to cool more than methanol. However, methanol evaporates faster than water which makes it extremely effective for the brief amount of time it has in the intake tract.

I don't think that methanol has a higher surface tension than water. Also, wouldn't a higher surface tension cause a liquid to evaporate slower?

Yes, you caught my typo. It's supposed to read "Methanol has a lower surface tension".

Wouldn't you think that the liquid that evaporates quicker would be the better option specifically for pre-compressor injection? I have gather that it would, and the first paragraph of this post seems to back up that theory.



Tyler from Street & Strip and myself are going to perform some injection tests sometime within the next month or two. We're going to use a HX35 powered 2300 Ford engine on their engine dyno. We'll test various pre-compressor locations as well as nozzle sizes. We'll also test post-intercooler injection to see which is more beneficial to IAT cooling and improved compressor efficiency VS. a greater cooler of the IAT.

We're doing this because of the lack of information available from the people that sell these injection kits. It seems that most people only have an opinion, but most haven't done independent testing and comparing of different types of injection kits. You'd think that if you're making your living on selling something, you would be the one person that is most interested in testing all of the variations of the product so that there are specific scientific results to prove or disprove all of the theories floating around out there. But that just doesn't seem to be the case here. You can talk to 10 different industry leaders on this subject and get 10 completely different replies/explanations/suggestions/theories, and they can't all be right. It's a bit frustrating.

We'll be sure to post results and videos when we're finished.

 

[spoonman]

A turbo charger is a dynamic compressor. The compressor accelerates the incoming air to a high speed and then converts this velocity into pressure by diffusing the air charge. It is extremely easy for a turbocharger compressor to separate the chemical cooling liquid from the air charge. The separation of the denser liquid and compressor wheel damage would more likely occur if a large amount of meth/water was introduced inside the compressor. The pressure rise noted from the pre-compressor chemical cooling is from the evaporation and introduction of the atomized and evaporated liquid not necessarily a rise in compressor efficacy.

The system could work and provide benefits but from my days working on aviation engines it was a consensus that chemical cooling was after the turbocharger. The environment of the engine was drastically different though, altitude, constant high load. Water was the main chemical cooling additive also. So there are some differences between my experience and the idea purposed in this thread. I would love to see testing results though, I am not trying to knock the idea but from my experience it is a bad idea. The location, amount of cooling agent, pressure, compressor heat, and shaft speed would all effect the results.

 

[romeen]

Wouldn't you think that the liquid that evaporates quicker would be the better option specifically for pre-compressor injection?

That makes sense and seems reasonable to assume so.

Since you will be doing a lot of experimenting I would suggest you get outside mount nozzles. It will save you from having to repeatedly remove/reinstall your IC pipes.

 

[Car Cannibal]

I am giving real life experience with a Devils Own 2gph preturbo injection nozzle running 50/50 with the 150 pump. It works and netted me 1psi of extra compressor efficiency.

If AIS wants to run pure Meth through a 14gph preturbo nozzle then let them, but I wouldn't on a smaller turbo that's for sure. It's possible that a T88 running big boost can handle a 14gph preturbo but I wouldn't recommend that volume on anything smaller than a 76mm turbo and not to come on until at least 10psi for sure. Pressure, nozzle mist and placement etc all are factors when running bigger and bigger nozzles properly.

I wouldn't run pure water preturbo for some of the reasons already mentioned and it appeared as if Diesel dyno graphs were having better luck with 50/50.

 

[andy4g63]

Some time ago, I installed on my car FMIC sprayer... Didin' t get a chance to log it, but someone posted this info about liquids:
===========================

Originally Posted by 94awdcoupe

==========================
I think you will find just plain ol water is all that is needed. it is the heat absorbed from vaporization that is at work here. I think water has the highest than any other liquid. alky will evaporate faster but it is not absorbing more heat than h20 does when it evaporates. hard to read but third number is latent heat of vaporization. alky 855, water 2260
ice will not help either since it will slow vaporization.

Alcohol, ethyl 108 -114 855 78.3
Ammonia 339 -75 1369 -33.34
Carbon dioxide 184 -57 574 -78
Helium 21 -268.93
Hydrogen(2) 58 -259 455 -253
Lead[3] 24.5 372.3 871 1750
Nitrogen 25.7 -210 200 -196
Oxygen 13.9 -219 213 -183
R134a -101 215.9 -26.6
Toluene -93 351 110.6
Turpentine 293
Water 334 0 2260 (at 100oC) 100

and after furthur thought maybe alky would be better because it evaporates so much faster.

Some good info here, thanks. Would you think it matters, especially, when car moves at higher speeds. Because then evaporation will not last much, sinse the liquid gets kind of blown away. LMK and which is going to be better then:
-alcohol
-water

 

[99gst_racer]

I am giving real life experience with a Devils Own 2gph preturbo injection nozzle running 50/50 with the 150 pump. It works and netted me 1psi of extra compressor efficiency.

What was your base boost (psi)? Can you tell us about your reduced IATs? Also, can you show a picure of your mounted nozzle?

 

[Devilsown]

pure fact that water is able to remove more heat out of the air than methanol can for a given amount of fluid injected. The deal is with methanol you can inject more into a motor and start replacing fuel for methanol so you can get more cooling that way.

Running large amount of fluid threw the conpressor is not ideal imo. How about you try what i suggested and see how it works? You only need a larger nozzle to test out his pov.

I am not saying i am right about this either you may make more power his way. Just remember i been doing this for a few years and this is all i do. He is just a resaler for another meth inject company. Might want to contact the coolingmist directly.

 

[99gst_racer]

Thanks for chiming in, Chance.
I'll share my test results on this site as soon as we're finished.