Nitrous Bottle and nozzle pressure

[Gigaah]

I don't have an NO2 system. So I'm not sure what the pressures being delt with are(I have some educated ideas). I'm guessing bottle pressure is on the order of 3000psi(I want to say I read that in a post..but that might have been scuba tank). I don't know what pressure it is prayed at. I was thinking it is probably regulated down so your not running 3000 psi through lines to the pill. But what sort of pressure does it run at outside of the bottle?

I only ask because the gears in my head are turning on making a custom NO2 system. I can easily deal with in the area of 250 psi but anything higher than that the equipement gets into very specialized realm not to mention as PSI goes up things get harder to work with.

I appreciate your help.

 

[DSMJim]

3000psi is scuba your thinking of, plus most of the places never fill you up that high anyway which really pisses me off. Anyway...

The max pressure for nitrous bottle is 1800psi but the tanks are best run at 1000-1100psi to keep the air fuel inline based on the manufacturers recommended jet sizing. The pressure from the bottle all the way to the jet is not regulated down like scuba equipment. It sprays through your jet (you called it a pill) then out the nossle at almost exactly the same pressure as the bottle save for a bit of loss from the travel and lines, but otherwise it's 1000-1100psi coming out the nossle.

The solenoids for the nitrous system are much heavier as they are designed to hold back this presssure when closes and open and close with accuracy to shut off the nitrous flow. The fuel solenoid is much smaller as you know what pressure it has to deal with.

 

[Itzallstock]

Jacking the thread for a sec, At what pressure does Nitrous become unusable and need to get filled again?
-Thanks
Ben

 

[Gigaah]

I'm not sure if anyone can answer this. What would be the problem with regulating it down to say 250 and using a larger jet 250 PSI seems to me it should be enough pressure to spray a gas. If it was regulated down to 250(aproximatly 1/4 bottle pressure) I think you'd just have to get a jet 4x larger. There may be something that I just don't know.

I just keep thinking that if I can regulate the pressure down I can make my own very sweet fully variable no2 system not regulated by the jet size(one larger jet) but rather by varying the NO2 pressure(wich will change the quantity of N02 being sprayed). Most of the components to do something like this are 250 psi or under.

I have experience with industrial controls and I can program PLCs(Programable Logic Controllers). I just need to iron things out, see if I'm trying something that flat won't work before I got wasting money.

 

[loweperf]

What your not thinking about is the vapor pressure of N2O. Nitrous requires about 750psi to keep in liquid form. Lower pressures would only be gas. What you could do is buy a nitrous kit and use your knowledge of PLC's to build a programable nitrous controller.

 

[GSGoinFast]

Jacking the thread for a sec, At what pressure does Nitrous become unusable and need to get filled again?
-Thanks
Ben

about 800psi or so and its effectiveness drops off.

What your not thinking about is the vapor pressure of N2O. Nitrous requires about 750psi to keep in liquid form. Lower pressures would only be gas. What you could do is buy a nitrous kit and use your knowledge of PLC's to build a programable nitrous controller.

ya like he said, once you get down that low you get a lot of compressed air coming out instead of nitrous. 250psi wouldnt work to well imo

 

[Gigaah]

Compressed air? don't you mean decompressed No2? I can't imagine why air would be in the tank.

I do see the point. I'm not sure if I could spray as much N02 in gas form as you can spray in liquid. Hmm maybe there is an angle there. However I am still hoping to make a system that is fully variable or at the very least close.

See I'm figuring the reason you N02 starts to suck at the psi goes down is obviously the result of one issue. There is no pressure regulation. The quantity of N02 sprayed is directly related to the pressure in the bottle. If you can spray enough n02 in gas form regulated down in the 250 and under range you can keep the pressure constant till the bottle is "dead" thus keeping your first N02 shot exactly the same as the last. Of course the real aim isn't to just keep the pressure constant..it is to regulate it down to a pressure that is easily managed by standard equipment. Then you can hopfully build a system where you can spray through out the entire rpm range in any gear because you can change the "shot size" on the fly and vary it by RPM or rpm/gear. This would basicly allow you to tweak your N02 system similar to how you do your fuel with a fuel management system.

But yeah, after much fighting with this..if It just can't be done with out spending a zillion dollars I'd consider making an N02 controller but at that point I might just buy one since its proven tech.

 

[DSMJim]

Compressed air? don't you mean decompressed No2? I can't imagine why air would be in the tank.

I do see the point. I'm not sure if I could spray as much N02 in gas form as you can spray in liquid. Hmm maybe there is an angle there. However I am still hoping to make a system that is fully variable or at the very least close.

See I'm figuring the reason you N02 starts to suck at the psi goes down is obviously the result of one issue. There is no pressure regulation. The quantity of N02 sprayed is directly related to the pressure in the bottle. If you can spray enough n02 in gas form regulated down in the 250 and under range you can keep the pressure constant till the bottle is "dead" thus keeping your first N02 shot exactly the same as the last. Of course the real aim isn't to just keep the pressure constant..it is to regulate it down to a pressure that is easily managed by standard equipment. Then you can hopfully build a system where you can spray through out the entire rpm range in any gear because you can change the "shot size" on the fly and vary it by RPM or rpm/gear. This would basicly allow you to tweak your N02 system similar to how you do your fuel with a fuel management system.

But yeah, after much fighting with this..if It just can't be done with out spending a zillion dollars I'd consider making an N02 controller but at that point I might just buy one since its proven tech.

Compressed air is added with the nitrous when the tank is filled. When it's in the tank it's in a liquid form because it's compressed so heavily. Thats why it gets so cold when it comes out because of changing states. Inside the nitrous bottle there is a pick up tube that runs from the valve of the bottle to the bottom. THe compressed air stays in air form and the ntirous is liquid so when you heat the bottle you really are heating the air to raise the pressure so it pushes the nitrous out the bottom. This is why bottles are mounted on a slight angle to keep the nitrous at the bottom and air at the top. THe air is basically a pressure adder to help force the nitrous out of the bottle.

You don't regulate nitrous down to 250psi because thats not enough pressure to atomize fuel properly. If you see how a nitrous nossle works you will understand why 250psi is not enough. As nitrous comes ouf of the nossle it crosses the fuel and atomizes it so that fuel is not just squirting like a spray gun.

There is no benefit of regulating down the pressure with all kinds of special equipment to keep the first shot the same as the last one. This is already accomplished via a cheap bottle heater that keep pressure constant, no need to change the pressure it's spraying at.

You can also vary the shot using a progressive nitrous controller which have been around for years. NX's maximizer works on a palm and allows you to vary the shot in terms of HP and timing. You can ramp it up in gears type of thing. Start with 50hp at 2000rpm and ramp it up to 200hp by 8000rpm or whatever. It's an amazing piece of equipment. It just pulses the solenoids to acheive this. If you have ever seen one work you can hear the solenoids buzz and they open and close rapidly. The solenoids are designed to take this and from NX have a lifetime warranty so if you do wear them out who cares, just have them rebuild and away you go. I have personally used this setup and it's quite amaizing.

Seriously your trying to reinvent the wheel by replaceing a round one with a square one thinking that you have a better idea. Just buy a NX kit and a mazimizer if thats what you wanna do. It's cheaper to buy than you can build and will work better.

 

[Itzallstock]

Jim, You are sweeter then my taters!
-Thanks for all the help
-ben

 

[rys]

I only ask because the gears in my head are turning on making a custom NO2 system. I can easily deal with in the area of 250 psi but anything higher than that the equipement gets into very specialized realm not to mention as PSI goes up things get harder to work with.

Why do things get very specialized after 250psi? Most members here running a nitrous kit are using "commonly available parts" (being that generally things aren't custom machined).

I built my nitrous kit custom from parts that I found online.

I disagree with this guy's build techniques and methodologies, but here is a link that may give you some ideas:
http://www.diy-nitrous.fsnet.co.uk/

You'll note that he uses industrial solenoids, and has certain opinions on where the jets should go. His setup will work, but I prefer the U.S. style automotive solenoids, and prefer my jets are installed at the nozzle.

A link to my custom nitrous setup:
http://www.eclipseforums.org/fortopic173147.html

NOS instructions for a wet kit:
http://www.holley.com/TechDocs/Instructions/NOS/Sheets/199R10295.pdf

NX instructions for a wet kit:
http://www.nitrousexpress.com/Instructions/stage1.pdf

Special note: Do not use NX jettings for anything else but NX jets and NX nozzles, they are custom manufactured and do not conform to the industry standard jets (NOS Style jettings).

-Brian

 

[Gigaah]

I was mostly talking about pressur regulating devices. The higher above 250 you go the harder it is to find it. N02 systems don't regulate the pressure.

 

[rys]

I was mostly talking about pressur regulating devices. The higher above 250 you go the harder it is to find it. N02 systems don't regulate the pressure.

There's probably a good reason that people don't run their systems at 250psi, besides bottle pressure. Could be related to flow too.. (Too low CFM at 250psi, etc).)

-Brian

 

[Itzallstock]

Ah, What about carbon fiber bottles? We have carbon wrapped bottles at the fire dept and they take in 4500 and out full pressure...then to a regulater system and into the air mask. They are small. About the size of a 10 pounder..... So is it fair to say the MORE psi you get into the bottle, the more runs you can get?
-Ben

 

[loweperf]

No. Nitrous bottles are rated to 1800psi as Jim said but the burst disc is designed to pop at 3000psi. Unlike compressed air in your fire equipment that can be compressed. Nitrous compressed above 750 psi turns to liquid and you can't compress liquid. You can get more than 10 pounds of nitrous in a 10 pound bottle but it's not wise. If you don't have enough room for expansion when the bottle gets hotter the burst disc will blow.