Newbie ForumBeginner/newbie/general DSM questions. first mods, how to run 10's when you haven't run 12's yet, any tech question that doesn't fit in another tech forum. New Members must limit their tech posts to this forum and sub-forums.
Has anyone tryed running E85 in their dsm? Their is a station in my area that sells it and it's not much more than regular gas. It is 85% ethanol and 15% gas and is 110 octane . It could be a cheap alternative to race gas.
Last edited by Defiant; 05-25-2008 at 06:06 AM.
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i just tried it this last week, 4gal e85 and 4gal 92octane
upside, i haven't noticed massive knock even when i turned up to 20psi on the 14b (cold night) or pushed 17psi up to 7500 in 3rd.
downside, you need to use more.
i have my afc set to -33 with 92octane, but -22 with half of each. with high throttle settings for 92octane, i had .88-.9 up to redline. after adding e85, they dropped to .8-.82
there's a local guy trying for 10s on a stock block, and he said he would give e85 a shot this week to see what he can do with it... he has a 50trim and 650s, so he's got plenty of room to run more fuel
i just tried it this last week, 4gal e85 and 4gal 92octane
upside, i haven't noticed massive knock even when i turned up to 20psi on the 14b (cold night) or pushed 17psi up to 7500 in 3rd.
downside, you need to use more.
i have my afc set to -33 with 92octane, but -22 with half of each. with high throttle settings for 92octane, i had .88-.9 up to redline. after adding e85, they dropped to .8-.82
there's a local guy trying for 10s on a stock block, and he said he would give e85 a shot this week to see what he can do with it... he has a 50trim and 650s, so he's got plenty of room to run more fuel
you need much more fuel for the e85 i run it and pump gas in my turbo CRX but you need to tune e85 to 10.75:1 vs 14.96:1 and we all know people run gas much richer so i would tune to like 9:1 with e85 but there is great power to be had and you can advance the timming alot with the fuel. i really like running it and it does not harm the enviorment like pump gas does.
mmm... i don't monitor my a/f ratio yet.
in addition, e85 doesn't seem like it will be worth it because i'll need to use so much more. look at huge hp drag cars running alcohol, they have massive fuel supply systems
there's a local guy trying for 10s on a stock block, and he said he would give e85 a shot this week to see what he can do with it... he has a 50trim and 650s, so he's got plenty of room to run more fuel
Because of the presence of the OH in place of the H in regular gas you will need much more fuel for the same ammount of air...chemistry stuff.
EDIT: the fuel will have a tendency to corrode everything in your fuel system and milk down your oil. Don't mess with alcohols unless you know what you are doing.
his car is incredibly light for an awd; he's taken almost everything out that he can... he's taunted about taking out the rear brakes. i think he's making around 430hp
i wouldn't bother with it in a n/a 1.8 or 2l, stick with 85 or 87 octane. ethanol has less energy per unit than gasoline, so you would get worse mileage
i wouldn't bother with it in a n/a 1.8 or 2l, stick with 85 or 87 octane. ethanol has less energy per unit than gasoline, so you would get worse mileage
You would have to put a gun to my head before you made me put 85 or 87 into my DSM. C'mon now, your 4G63 isn't a big block Chevy motor, pay the extra money for the premium.
As for Ethanol getting worse gas mileage, I would be surprised. Gas mileage is more directly affected by how you drive your car, not the type of gas. Keep your foot on the floor all night and your tank will be empty regardless.
Chris
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Chris
FFWD Stroker/FP3052
i wouldn't bother with it in a n/a 1.8 or 2l, stick with 85 or 87 octane. ethanol has less energy per unit than gasoline, so you would get worse mileage
What is the range of a flexible fuel ethanol vehicle?
Ethanol has less energy content than gasoline. However, E85 also has a much higher octane (ranging from 100 to 105) than gasoline. FFVs are not optimized to E85, so they experience a 5% to 15% drop in fuel economy. This will vary based on temperature and driving conditions. For comparison purposes, aggressive driving habits can result in a 20% loss and low tire pressure can reduce mileage by 6%.
So I am corrected, there is a slight loss in fuel economy. However, it is not much. Assuming you are getting 24 mpg already, a 15% loss in economy would net 20.4 mgp, which is still pretty good.
Again, I think mileage is more dependant on driving style and other conditions, as stated above. You will also see a 20+% drop in economy if you drive around with your foot on the floor with normal gas as well.
Chris
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Chris
FFWD Stroker/FP3052
I am looking for any information on the use of E85 fuel in my eclipse. I know that E85 is 85% ethanol, and I know that the use of alcohol in a gas engine requires a larger jet/injector. I have tried to get information from my Chevy dealer about the way new a car's computer handles the change to E85, but have not had any luck. My car is running 660 cc injectors, and I have taken fuel out with a MAFT. I was wondering how much fuel would I need to put back in to allow for the use of E85. My main reason for wanting to use E85 is that it is 105 Octane, which will allow for more boost/less knock. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
That being said your computer has no idea it needs to run richer, and will continue to try and run 14.7:1. Plus e85 doesnt contain as much energy so you have to run more fuel just to make up the difference.
What could be done is if you have a wideband you can change what type of gas its reading, so you can change the output so that stoich is 12:1. Then you just increase fuel to the computer. This would fake out the computer and run more fuel then it normally would.
Unless you are just trying to be enviromentally friendly, e85 doesn't seem worth it. 15-20% more fuel consumption kind of kills the cost savings.
Not to mention the increase in pollutants during refinement/production over gasoline.
That and the only reason its cheaper is because the government subsidises a huge part of it. So it really doesn't cost any less, everybody else ends up fronting the cost with our taxes.
That being said your computer has no idea it needs to run richer, and will continue to try and run 14.7:1. Plus e85 doesnt contain as much energy so you have to run more fuel just to make up the difference.
What could be done is if you have a wideband you can change what type of gas its reading, so you can change the output so that stoich is 12:1. Then you just increase fuel to the computer. This would fake out the computer and run more fuel then it normally would.
Unless you are just trying to be enviromentally friendly, e85 doesn't seem worth it. 15-20% more fuel consumption kind of kills the cost savings.
-Seth
Stoich is not 12:1 for E85. Its much lower than that at 9.7-10:1 depending on the season which affects the actual alcohol percentage. It seems to handle running leaner than stoich than gasoline does in the low load (ie cruise). Fuel consumption went up the most during short around town stuff due to larger fuel requirements for cold starting, and warmup in cold temps.
I ran E85 for a couple of weeks in my 95 awd. I didn't have a very good tune on the car since I just got the Megasquirt installed recently. Running the E85 required changing the ReqFuel variable, and adding much more fuel for cold starting. The ethanol does not like to vaporize at cool temperatures. It didn't like to start too well at 15 degrees or below. Some of that may be correctable with a better tune though.
Even without additional tuning the car ran GREAT on the stuff. It seems to have a much larger tuning window before knock or running like crap from being pig rich. More lowend torque, and definitly more topend. Much greater knock resistance.
There is no station here locally. I was forced to go back to 92 octane so I'm not sure what the longterm effects would be on the stock regulator and rail. I really can't wait until we get a station here, I plan to run it all the time, or at least a 50-50 mix of this and pump gas.
Will e85 even work without damaging some gaskets and stuff?
Not like these cars were designed for e85.
For long term use, there will be problems for cars not designed to run E85. Once in a while it won't cause any problems. Google it, there are articles covering this stuff.
For long term use, there will be problems for cars not designed to run E85. Once in a while it won't cause any problems. Google it, there are articles covering this stuff.
If you replace a few components in your fuel system, you can run E-85 forever with no problems. Items required to run E-85 properly.
1. 33% larger injectors - Ethanol tolerant
2. 33% larger fuel pump - Ethanol tolerant
3. Anodize fuel rail (or get ethanol tolerant one)
4. Ethanol tolerant FPR
5. SS fuel line from tank to fuel rail
6. Ability to control fuel -DSMlink, SAFC, AEM
There are a few people on here that run E-85 daily with no problems. And a few people in CO have converted their WRXs to E-85. Now going on something like 10,000 miles with no ill effects.
Besides it's over 100 octane and it's cheaper than running race gas, so why not.
By the way, it's safe to run up to 23% E-85 with no ill effects no matter the age of your car. Cars made after 1988 can handle even more than 23%. Usually up to 30% without getting a CEL. All you ever wanted to know about E-85 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
If you replace a few components in your fuel system, you can run E-85 forever with no problems. Items required to run E-85 properly.
1. 33% larger injectors - Ethanol tolerant
2. 33% larger fuel pump - Ethanol tolerant
3. Anodize fuel rail (or get ethanol tolerant one)
4. Ethanol tolerant FPR
5. SS fuel line from tank to fuel rail
6. Ability to control fuel -DSMlink, SAFC, AEM
There are a few people on here that run E-85 daily with no problems. And a few people in CO have converted their WRXs to E-85. Now going on something like 10,000 miles with no ill effects.
Besides it's over 100 octane and it's cheaper than running race gas, so why not.
Good info. I'm gonna dig deeper to make sure that list is complete, but it sounds like it from what I recall. Then a +1 for you!
The reasons I wouldn't use it DAILY:
costs more
"E85 has only 72% of the energy value of gasoline, the Energy Department says. If E85 is priced higher than 72% of gasoline's price — which it is most places — motorists are paying more to go the same distance."
Then the whole debate about the creation of e85 using more energy than it creates, the massive water consumption in the refining process and so on. I don't want to contribute just yet to something so controversial. I mean, people thought asbestos was a good idea...
But for track use I might, and then you shouldn't need to upgrade all the fuel parts.
Even though it produces only 72% the energy of gasoline, the resultant decrease in MPG is no where near 28% decrease. Most people say their MPG decreases by 10 - 15%. But like you said, for track use, who cares about MPG.
Though you are correct, if your sole purpose is to be environmentally friendly, may want to look elsewhere.
For track only use, you will still need larger injectors and larger fuel pump (think bigger than a 255lph). Plus it's a good idea to replace the fuel line at least from the filter to the rail anyway even if you never intend to run E-85 because it's freaking small.
There's a good thread about one of the experiments with running a WRX on E-85 on the www.awdpirates.net forum. Since you have to be a member, I copied and pasted to the attached.
E85 contributes nothing to global warming, a good thing. The reason is that the CO2 released was in the environment to begin with, so you are never adding new gasses. It is environmentally neutral.
The fact that it does not have as much energy as gasoline is countered by the fact that you can extract a higher percentage of energy from the fuel by using more boost. Saab is already selling E85 cars that get the same milage with whichever gasoline-to-ethanol ratio you use. It just dials in more or less boost to compensate. The power difference is about 25% in favor of E85 for that car.
I'm going to start using E85 as soon as it is available in Seattle.
What could be done is if you have a wideband you can change what type of gas its reading, so you can change the output so that stoich is 12:1. Then you just increase fuel to the computer. This would fake out the computer and run more fuel then it normally would.
-Seth
not true. keep in mind your wideband doesnt read real air fuel ratio it reads oxygen in relation to stoich. This means that if your car was able to meter air fuel ration just from the O2 sensor alone you would need need to change the tune of your car if you switched to ethanol, methanol or any other fuel (oversimplified). what I am trying to say is that on your wideband stoich is read as 14.7:1 for any fuel even if its actual stoichometric ratio is not 14.7:1. The wideband is calibrated for gasoline.
Of course, when running in closed loop, the engine will run at 14.13 AFR instead of 14.7. O2 sensors (incl. widebands) don’t measure AFR, but Lambda. Lambda is defined as actual AFR/stoich AFR. It's a ratio. In closed loop part throttle the engine is just running at Lambda 1.0, regardless of fuel. The same would be true for other Lambda values when running closed loop at WOT using a wideband. The engine would run at the tuned Lambda and everything would be fine. Open loop systems would need to be retuned for alcohol blends though.
I am considering a different AWD E85 project... Once complete the DSM will probably be sold...
This involves a surplus APU... A small aviation gas turbine generator set and electric motors... You can tweek the Fadec to run it on anyting from the original jet A to diesel (inc biodiesel) or alcohol... I'd run it on 98% ethanol...
With about 3x a gas engines tq and a peak Hp rating of 8 to 10 times that of its continous rating four motors over 20hp are just wicked. Minimal driveline weight, cost and efficiency are why I am not considering driving the wheels right off a turboshaft.... A large turboshaft like that which drives a prop or a rotor would guzzle fuel like crazy at idle when cruising.. Its much more efficient to use a smaller one and max it out..
![E85 [Merged 5-24-8]](/forums/iconimages/newbie-forum/e85-merged-5-24-8-a_ltr.gif)
Brian 
E85 Question
