2G: Engine removal?

[weebz1]

Alright, so here's the deal. I just bought this 96' Eagle Talon TSi AWD as a project car I'm relatively new to the DSM scene but I absolutely love the cars. I know they are rather high maintenance vehicles but oh well.

I have no compression and it has oil leaking around the head gasket and various other spots it seems as the front side of the engine has a relatively thick coat of oil on it with some of it being dry and some of it being fresh oil. So I'm guessing that's part of where I'm loosing pressure at, plus it has been sitting for awhile. The oil feeder to the turbo is also leaking a bit of oil as well. (This kid did a shitty job taking care of it. So I'm here to ressurect(sp?) this bad boy. )

So here's my question:

Would it be easier to remove the engine to re-gasket the motor and to verify all the internals are okay? And if so, what kind of special tools (if any) am I looking to get to make this whole thing much smoother?

ps. I bought the blitz body kit he was going to put on it and I'm going to sell it. I love the original look of the talon.

[T is for TURBO]

If you have no compression, then the engine has to come out.

Edit:

Sorry I jumped the gun on that one, I didn't read close enough. If you know its just a blown gasket, then no you don't have to take the engine out. However, if its a project, I would pull the motor, clean it up, and get a better look at things. This is a prefect time to do maintenance such as timing belt, water pump, BSE. A clean engine and clean bay makes trouble shooting things 10x easier in the future

[mattasi]

Resurrect

[weebz1]

Alright fair enough, I'm looking forward to getting my hands a little dirty and just wanting to get this project rolling. What if any specialized tools will I need? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Oh, and its not that I don't have ANY compression its just not worthy of posting, cylinder one was like 30psi, 2 was around 50, 3 was about 30 and 4 was about 30-40 psi.

It has a pretty new timing belt on it with zero wear to it. But the whole setting timing and removing the timing belt seem rather iffy to me. But that's a discussion for another time I suppose.

[2literbeatsV8]

Yep. No two ways around it. You are likely going to need to rebuild the entire engine. Be prepared to spend money through your nose.

[weebz1]

Originally Posted by 2literbeatsV8

Yep. No two ways around it. You are likely going to need to rebuild the entire engine. Be prepared to spend money through your nose.

Well I'm not worried about spending and buying all at once since it's my PROJECT car. I plan to buy a little here and a little there so when I do get it all put back together I have that good feeling of knowing I did it all myself. My head is rather new on it it too (supposedly) but, I guess I'll find out more on that when I pull the motor!

But, back to my other question. Is there any special tools I should acquire for this job?

[T is for TURBO]

Metric socket set and drivers (1/4" 3/8" and 1/2" drivers)
Jack
Jack stands
Engine hoist
Engine stand
Screw Driver
Breaker bar
Torque wrench
Pry bars
Dead blow hammer
Regular hammer

Those should get you balls deep.

Also, if you get ARP head studs, you'll need a 12point deep well 14mm socket

[weebz1]

Originally Posted by T is for TURBO

Metric socket set and drivers (1/4" 3/8" and 1/2" drivers)
Jack
Jack stands
Engine hoist
Engine stand
Screw Driver
Breaker bar
Torque wrench
Pry bars
Dead blow hammer
Regular hammer

Those should get you balls deep.

Also, if you get ARP head studs, you'll need a 12point deep well 14mm socket

i laughed out loud at "balls deep". Thank you for the tips and advice! Pretty excited to get this going. My factory service manual should be here today. I've got my chiltons manual, but that factory one should explain everything in better detail. If my interals check out to be okay, i should be able to just reassemble the motor as is correct? I think the previous guy just didn't do a good job when he was working on it. It hasn't ran in about a year or so. So i'm crossing my fingers, although if i need to purchase new parts, so be it. I'm looking to just get this motor running for now and save up to do a 6 bolt swap

[And_44]

Haha, yea laughed to seeing that "balls deep" post. But that sound like those will get you a good start for sure.

Well, if your going to be pulling the whole engine minus well doing the maintanence items with it out as mentioned above. Even further dissambly (ie piston removal) might think about getting everything mic'd and polished and new rings.

If it's bad good time to find that 6 bolt then. Haha. No point in spending money twice.

Did you try to do a Leakdown test?

[weebz1]

Originally Posted by And_44

Did you try to do a Leakdown test?

not yet, I just got my leak-down tester last night. Now i need to find my air compressor.. things are randomly place now on account I just moved plan on doing that either tonight or tomorrow night before I actually pull it. I also got the mechanics stethoscope so that should help determine what i'm actually going to be dealing with once I pull it out.

I really just want to pull it to examine everything and make sure its all okay internally. Also to clean up all the oil that would be pretty hard to get to since it's pretty thick on the engine. If all internals and the like check out to be okay, I plan on just re assmbling it for now until i get my 6bolt built the way I want it to.

This will give me a good chance to clean up the engine bay as well like re routing some of the wires the previous owner just randomly ran through . I guess we'll see soon enough..

Thank you!

[trboeclpse98]

If the head looks clean or like it has recently been rebuilt my guess would be that they didn't torque the head bolts down properly therefore causing the headgasket to fail. If I were you I would buy a complete engine rebuild kit and go through the whole motor and replace all the gaskets, seals, bearings and piston rings and have a fresh new motor to work with.

[H@xtGSX]

Rip its guts out and show it who's boss!!

Seriously though, it is easier to pull the motor and tranny as a unit if you ever have to do any major work. These engines aren't hard to get out, but it'll save your ass and back from many hours of soreness to just take it all out and work on it on a stand.

[weebz1]

Originally Posted by trboeclpse98

If I were you I would buy a complete engine rebuild kit and go through the whole motor and replace all the gaskets, seals, bearings and piston rings and have a fresh new motor to work with.

If I were to buy a rebuilt "kit" what kit would be recommended?

[SpiderGST]

I don't know if it was just my arp head stud kit but it took a 13mm 12 point socket for some reason.

[weebz1]

Originally Posted by SpiderGST

I don't know if it was just my arp head stud kit but it took a 13mm 12 point socket for some reason.

haha. I'm not to worried about the size of socket i'll need If I were to buy a "rebuild kit" what kit would be recommended.. ?

[H@xtGSX]

I rebuilt my 95 7 bolt after it crankwalked with a new crank, bearings, seals, rings and gasket set from O'Rileys. It's not a complete kit package, its 3 different items. Cost about $400ish. I wouldn't personally go sinking a lot of money into a 96 block. A 98 or 99 block with the revised thrust bearing would be much more worthy of the attention. Really, instead of rebuilding that block, I would look for a good 98+ short block. It'll probably cost about as much, and it'll be less likely to have any thrust problems than the 96 block. I like the 7 bolt motors better than 6 bolts because of the heavier bearing girdle and circulation revisions, but these early 7 bolt motors are a ticking time bomb if you start modifying it and upping the power and clutch weights. This is what happens:



The crankshaft wasn't even salvageable. The 95-96 thrust bearing is poorly designed and under oiled. Who ever designed it at Mitsubitchy deserves a good swift kick in the balls.

[weebz1]

Originally Posted by H@xtGSX

...I wouldn't personally go sinking a lot of money into a 96 block.

That's what I've been saying. I just want to get THIS motor actually running without spending a shit ton of money. I'm okay with fixing what needs fixed. But I'm not looking to up the power on this motor.

Like you said I want to either find a new motor or rebuild a different one with Wiesco pistons and Eagle H-Beam connecting rods and nice internals along those lines in the future.

I'm too worried about this motor crankwalking on me if I do add too much power to it. Anyway, I saw I DNJ rebuilt kit for around $300... seems kind of iffy though?

[WES_393]

Against everyones suggestion, I built my 95 engine block with forged internals and the factory crank. Over 4k heavily used miles with no issues. Boosting 25psi on a 16g with E85. Using a 2200lb pressure plate as well. Crankwalk is more played out than Madonna, and in my experience is usually assembly error and poor crank specs rather than a design flaw. There are even multiple mods you can do to make it even more unlikely such as blocking oil squirters, disabling the neutral switch, and using lighter pressure plates with better clutch disks.

But regardless, just spend the time and money to build it now. Whether it be this block, 6-bolt swap, or 97-99 split thrust block, just do it. You say its a project car anyways so don't waste your time with a stock rebuild just to guarantee you'll have to rip it out once you want to make more power. Not to mention any rebuild "kit" you can find is going to be sub standard to even stock parts. Gaskets and seals from Civic-Zone or Oh'Really? Auto Parts are fine, but using their engine internals is just asking for problems. Use nothing but internals from proven aftermarket vendors. Also make sure to use a reputable machine shop that is experienced in the 4g63 engine for any work done to the block.

[weebz1]

Yeah, makes sense...I really just want to drive this bitch But I guess I should probably start that instead of wasting money on a stock rebuild like you said. But, I guess I will hopefully find out for sure what my internals are like once I do a leak-down test. At least it will give me somewhat of an idea.

Anyway, Thanks for the advice guys. I guess I'll update with what I plan on doing sometime soon..

[T is for TURBO]

Originally Posted by SpiderGST

I don't know if it was just my arp head stud kit but it took a 13mm 12 point socket for some reason.

Now that I think about it, I think you're right.

[H@xtGSX]

Originally Posted by WES_393

Against everyones suggestion, I built my 95 engine block with forged internals and the factory crank. Over 4k heavily used miles with no issues. Boosting 25psi on a 16g with E85. Using a 2200lb pressure plate as well. Crankwalk is more played out than Madonna, and in my experience is usually assembly error and poor crank specs rather than a design flaw. There are even multiple mods you can do to make it even more unlikely such as blocking oil squirters, disabling the neutral switch, and using lighter pressure plates with better clutch disks.

Agreed... Though, I still think the 95 thrust face is too small for the high pressures we tend to like putting on them. I fixed mine against better advice also. I did every anti-walk trick I thought might help though, except block the squirters. Out of all the crap I did, THAT is what I forgot to do. Anyhow, I'll get to that next oil change. I filed the edge lips of the bearing face to allow the oil to get in there better and drilled and polished a couple extra oil holes in the bearing. I also put the stand up against the wall, chocked it, seated the thrust bearing with the crank in place, preloaded the crank a little with a bottle jack to make SURE it was mated to the crank perfectly, and then torqued the bearing girdle on. I also always put the head on first, then check the bearing alignment. I've noticed that the blocks can deform a little bit with the head fully torqued in place, so I always either put the head on first or leave it on if it didn't need any work before putting the crank in.

It's been lightly abused for a bit over 4000 miles so far and there's not any more end play than the day I put the new crank in, so I'm happy. That's with a stage 3 clutch and a 6 puck sprung disk on an 11 lb Fidenza flywheel too, and that combo is one of the 7 bolt recipes for crank death. After having the '95 crankshaft out and sitting right next to the new crank (which isn't REALLY new... I'm sure it's most likely a remanufactured crank, but I don't really care), I did have the opportunity to have a friend of mine use a hardness tester on each. He told me the numbers, but also said he wasn't sure it was reading right. I won't bother making myself look dumb by spouting off figures that probably aren't right and that I don't really fully understand, but he did say that the old crank consistantly tested out to be softer material across every one of the counter balancer lobes. I do believe that inferior metal may be a large contributing factor to the 95-96 crank problems. I know that the thrust surface on my crankshaft was absolutely destroyed and had dug into the crank steel much deeper than the actual width of a NEW thrust bearing face, so the metal in the crank was losing that friction fight... I don't expect to have to replace the crank again for a long while, but I do have a 6 bolt short block spare in the garage (it was free), just in case.

[bryanwheat]

Originally Posted by H@xtGSX

\ except block the squirters. Out of all the crap I did, THAT is what I forgot to do. Anyhow, I'll get to that next oil change.

Good luck with that, you will have to pull the crank to remove the oil squirters on a 2g block.

[H@xtGSX]

Originally Posted by bryanwheat

Good luck with that, you will have to pull the crank to remove the oil squirters on a 2g block.

Half heartedly joking... I am just annoyed I forgot them after all the other crap involved. I actually can get my hand in there and get ahold of them if I smash my forearm with the counter weights, but I don't know if I could pry it out. (Yes, my hands and wrists are small )

[bryanwheat]

Originally Posted by H@xtGSX

Half heartedly joking... I am just annoyed I forgot them after all the other crap involved. I actually can get my hand in there and get ahold of them if I smash my forearm with the counter weights, but I don't know if I could pry it out. (Yes, my hands and wrists are small )

I am not sure if you understand how 2g squirters are installed in the block. They are not bolted in like a 1g 6 bolt and 7 bolt. They are pressed into the block thru a hole in the main bores. The crank has to be removed than the bearing and then they can be driven out. From there you would have to tap the hole and install a plug. Look at the hole in the center of the main bore. The little round piece in there is the oil squirter

[H@xtGSX]

No, I knew they're stuck in there like that and that they normally have to be driven out with a punch. I am not seriously going to mess with them, just poking around. I am curious though because I have a friend (...I know... ... but this time he's not imaginary ) that is somewhat "special" (he's a gullible dumbass), and he managed to remove them from the outside of the bearing somehow. His crank was out of the block though. Someone or something spooked him into thinking that if anything at all got on those bearing surfaces, it'd eat the crank or explode or magically turn into Richard Simmons... anyhow, he said they weren't really that hard to pull out. I personally don't know, as I didn't mess with mine when I replaced the crank, but I am going to look. There's a little leak on the pan gasket, so I'll have it off anyhow. I figured I'd check the end play and give it a little inspection to see if there's anything new and interesting in there since the last time I had it off.

[bryanwheat]

Originally Posted by H@xtGSX

No, I knew they're stuck in there like that and that they normally have to be driven out with a punch. I am not seriously going to mess with them, just poking around. I am curious though because I have a friend (...I know... ... but this time he's not imaginary ) that is somewhat "special" (he's a gullible dumbass), and he managed to remove them from the outside of the bearing somehow. His crank was out of the block though. Someone or something spooked him into thinking that if anything at all got on those bearing surfaces, it'd eat the crank or explode or magically turn into Richard Simmons... anyhow, he said they weren't really that hard to pull out. I personally don't know, as I didn't mess with mine when I replaced the crank, but I am going to look. There's a little leak on the pan gasket, so I'll have it off anyhow. I figured I'd check the end play and give it a little inspection to see if there's anything new and interesting in there since the last time I had it off.

I can assure you that your friend didn't pull them thru the outside. There is a lip about half way up the jet that is a larger diameter than the rest.

[H@xtGSX]

Originally Posted by bryanwheat

I can assure you that your friend didn't pull them thru the outside. There is a lip about half way up the jet that is a larger diameter than the rest.

I didn't know about a lip, but that makes sense. I thought they were just press fit... I wouldn't put something like jamming the fork of a pry bar on it and breaking the tops off past him. The holes were welded closed, from what I was told. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if he's driving around with oil squirter chunks in there. This same guy siezed a Toyota SR22 motor after popping a hole in the pan, field "fixing" it with duct tape , put a single quart of 75-90 gear oil in it (because oil is oil, right? Heeyuk! A quart should be plenty, I mean, look how much is still left in there after 3000 miles!! ), and tried to drive it the 9 miles back to town. It welded a piston to the block. Granted, it was many years ago, when he first started driving, but we still remind him of that occasionally...

Have you ever seen that movie "The Hills Have Eyes"? Yea... that's where I live. They filmed a lot of that movie around here. They weren't too far off on the crazy people either... He's one of them.

..........WE NOW RETURN YOU TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC.

[weebz1]

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

^^ That rebuild kit seems decent. Rather spendy but the parts in the set are good quality..or so I've heard. What do you think?

[H@xtGSX]

I think that's a really, REALLY good rebuild kit... You could get an entire motor in really good shape for the same price though.

[WES_393]

Originally Posted by weebz1

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

^^ That rebuild kit seems decent. Rather spendy but the parts in the set are good quality..or so I've heard. What do you think?

That is a really good bottom end kit. I even think the price is outstanding considering what you get and the quality of Manley parts. I personally run Manley pistons and love everything about them. If you have the cash, I say go for it. A set of Manley pistons will run you $500, Eagle H-beams would be around $400, a set of race bearing would be around $100, and your stock crank (if even useable) will cost you a good couple hundred to be magnafluxed and polished/cut. So you would be looking at ~$1,200 for a mismatched bottom end (nothing wrong with that if done right) or $1,500 for a brand new Manley bottom end that has been made to fit together perfectly.

But, to play devil's advocate, the extra $300 can go a long way with block work, gaskets, head work, etc. So one could argue that using the stock crank (with legit piston/rod combo) would save you money and likely be more than sufficient for any power you'll put the block through. That's the route I went and haven't had any issues yet. So you can't go wrong either way so long as it's done right.