New to DSM's - School Me!

[Dennyj1992]

Like the title says guys. I really know nothing about DSM's, and I just came here from the Cheverolet community. I was mainly into Cavalier's and the J-body scene and all of that. I'm sure I will go back one day, but for now am sticking around here for a minute. So here are a few questions I have.

1. What's the differences between models and turbo'ed compared to N/T?
2. I got this car at a steal from my buddy for $750 at 130k. Would it be smart to try and flip it for $3k and go for a turbo, or at least try to sell it for a lot more then I bought it for and get something quicker??? How about keeping it? It has been a great DD so far!
3. Why do these cars hold so much value on craigslist? Even above KBB value! Are they rare or what?

I know it's a bit much for my first post, but in response, could everyone try to fit in and answer all of the questions above please? Thanks guys, and it's cool to be here.

[PrimerPLus]

1. Your profile says you have a 97 Eagle Talon, so from the talon side there is the Talon ESI(FWD N/A), Talon TSI FWD(Turbo FWD), Talon TSI AWD (TURBO AWD). Which is basically the same thing as the Eclipse GS(FWD N/A), Eclipse GS-T(FWD TURBO) and Eclipse GSX(AWD Turbo)

2. If you are looking for more power/speed then yes sale it for a turbo model. That is what I'd do.

3. People pay more for what they want? idk lol

[kbiker76]

NT are good dd but very difficult to get power out of without throwing ungodly amounts of money at them. Turbo's are a lot more fun a lot easier to get power out of but if you dont keep up on maintenance you can end up with a lot of things that will need to be fixed.

Id sell the NT personally and get a gsx or gst but I have a dd and I can afford to have a car out for repairs for a while if I need to. Its all in what you want to do with the car.

Turbo's can be your best friend and your worst enemy at the same time

[DSM1G90]

3. Why do these cars hold so much value on craigslist? Even above KBB value! Are they rare or what?

Welcome. While it "looks' that the DSM, in Craigslist, seems to hold their value over KBB and NADA is that the owners are trying to get back most of the money spent for mods and customizing that they have done to their cars.

This is a common (and sometimes unfair) practice when they need to unload a DSM that they simply no longer have interest in, can't afford it, think it's an investment with the money spent into it, or the thing has major problems that they don't want to fuss with anymore and pass it off to the new buyer.

I always chuckle that when I see a vehicle that someone spent a lot of money into it...and they'll NEVER get that money back.

The Automobile is the worst to invest money into since there is absolutely no positve return, especially in interest form.

[Alan11]

These cars don't keep value unles they are awd. Or rare 2gb talons turbo of course..
People just overprice them so much because people lowball them

[kbiker76]

^^Exactly^^

[TK97gst]

I started off with a 97 talon ESI also being a toy back then i use to think i could swap a 4g63t in it well you could but just too much work money and time deff not worth it. I put some mods into it then i moved on so i traded it & got myself a 97gst =] much better and faster don't get me wrong my talon was a Prius compared to my gst it was a good DD but if u can get ahold of a gsx then go for it if naw get a gst good enough until u cant get any traction

[AK Maniak]

I started off with a 98 RS and it was an awesome DD that looked pretty sweet as well. Good gas mileage, reliable, and fun to drive. I had that for 2 years, then I bought a 97 GSX... AWD turbo is amazing. In short, I'll never be able to go back to an N/A.

[spyderdrifter]

My first was a '96 Talon ESi was fun to drive, even though I never modded it. I later got my first GST and I've had nothing but turbo'd DSMs since. They're great cars as long as you take care of them right.

[Dennyj1992]

Excellent replies everyone! Thank for the fast, and amazing input on such a short notice. I'm impressed, since a lot of other dumb forums just bag on you for whatever questions you ask, whether it's legitimate or not.

Back to the topic...so everyone here thinks I should flip it then? I forget to mention this, but I also have a wedding I may need to start saving up for, including the honeymoon and everything. Does that change a matter of things? For those who think I can flip it, what could I get out of it? It has 131k on it now, and it's a 4 speed, like I said before. I heard the manuals are (of course faster) but more reliable then the auto's as well? Also seems to be a pain in the ass, but my check engine light just randomly came on while driving today.

Downright irritating.

Hah, wow. I can't believe I totally forgot to tell you guys the main part lmao. It's an ESI N/T (which sucks, or else I would be keeping it for sure). Seems slow to me anyways, but my car before this was a 2200 Cavalier, and before that, the ol' 3.1 MPFI Z24 Cavalier. MUCH more torque off the line. This Talon is slow as shit off the line haha. It's all upper HP with these DSM's for sure.

[dsmdeliveryboy]

I'd say flip it, the 420a isn't a very good motor to begin with. You'll be happier in the end I promise.

[streetfiresa]

## best off flipping the car just like most said try and get ## hands on an awd 1g or 2g don't matter u will enjoy it

[importracr317]

Originally Posted by Dennyj1992

I heard the manuals are (of course faster) but more reliable then the auto's as well?

*Sigh*....no. One is no more reliable or faster than the other.

Originally Posted by Dennyj1992

Hah, wow. I can't believe I totally forgot to tell you guys the main part lmao. It's an ESI N/T (which sucks, or else I would be keeping it for sure). Seems slow to me anyways, but my car before this was a 2200 Cavalier, and before that, the ol' 3.1 MPFI Z24 Cavalier. MUCH more torque off the line. This Talon is slow as shit off the line haha. It's all upper HP with these DSM's for sure.

More displacement, more torque. Simply equation.

Sell the Talon, put the money into an account until after you get married. If you have money left AFTER the wedding, AFTER you find a place, AFTER you furnish the place and AFTER you have a small savings account, then look for a toy.

[GRAVEDIGGER]

Originally Posted by Dennyj1992

.It's an ESI N/T (which sucks, or else I would be keeping it for sure). Seems slow to me anyways, but my car before this was a 2200 Cavalier, and before that, the ol' 3.1 MPFI Z24 Cavalier. MUCH more torque off the line. This Talon is slow as shit off the line haha. It's all upper HP with these DSM's for sure.

You need to drive and/or ride in an awd turbo. They are a whole new realm of reality compared to the esi.

[DSM1G90]

I started with 1.8 now up to turbo. That was a differenct to be had!

[95talongirl]

Originally Posted by importracr317

*Sigh*....no. One is no more reliable or faster than the other.



More displacement, more torque. Simply equation.

Sell the Talon, put the money into an account until after you get married. If you have money left AFTER the wedding, AFTER you find a place, AFTER you furnish the place and AFTER you have a small savings account, then look for a toy.

Don't forget the 3.1L is also a push-rod engine. Those are torquier to begin with just in the nature of the the design. "cammer" engines, like ours need more RPM.

Since you;re saving for a wedding, I'd advise against jumping into a "toy" car right now. The turbo versions of these are SO addictive and before you know it, you'll be sinking endless amounts of money into it to go faster. Sometimes its best to avoid the temptation. lol! If you don't have another car, I'd say hang onto the Esi and drive it. They make excellent daily drivers. The engine is not bad, and with the usual matainence, can last a long time while giving you great gas mileage.

[TallestHERETIC]

2G N/T's fetch pretty good amounts of money where I live. A good, well maintained one can go for nearly 4500. They are really good on gas, too, considering its nearly $4/gallon just for 87 octane.

Stay away from the cheaper ones. They are more than likely riddled with mechanical issues.

The awd turbo editions are the same as Lancer Evolutions, just a little older and a little detuned. A stock, unmolested one here easily goes for 5-7 grand.

[spadepro22]

Ive owned a 97gs, 99spyder, 90 tsi awd(never got to drive it), and now my 93 tsi awd. Once you get a taste of the turbo, youll never go back. Hope you have deep pockets trying to keep upgrading.

[bluelsr90]

Personally I would sell it and buy a turbo only if you were interested in keeping the car and doing some upgrades to it. These cars are great to modify but if you choose this route always remember maintenance.

[Stew Pidaso]

Originally Posted by DSM1G90

I started with 1.8 now up to turbo. That was a differenct to be had!

I did the same thing and it was a major wow

[WES_393]

If your looking for reliability, torque, and don't mind convertibles, I would look into the Spyder GS. It's equipped with a 2.4l SOHC version of the 4g63 called the 4g64.

[i27457]

wait a second here, you got a 97 talon, thats 2gb talon thats a very hard to fine body style, if I were you I would keep all the 2gb conversion (both bumpers, hatch door side molding) for when I get a turbo dsm a would do a 2gb conversion

[Dennyj1992]

Wow, once again, thank you for all the great replies.

So far, I'm not sure if I want to keep the car, or sell it. I only have ONE car, so if I flip it, I would have to drive my parents cars for the time being. Which sucks lmao. I would love a turbo, but don't really have money to sink into it, if something actually happens to the turbo. Here is a list of pro's and con's about this car for me.

Pro's: It's DOHC, love these engines.
It's reliable, and great on gas!
It handles better then any other car I think I've ever really driven.
It looks wonderful, and Talons' are pretty rare cars around my parts. Especially a 2gb.
It's an auto, which is great for my girlfriend to drive on, since she can't drive a manual (yet).

Con's: Needs exhaust work, but will have that fixed next week.
Is extremely slow off the line, which of course, a turbo model isn't.
It's not turbo, which means it's slow of the line, and weaker then most cars on the road today. (Yes, I'm saying it twice).
My MPH gauge says 170, but it will never touch that lol.
It's an auto, which sucks for me.
Last, but for sure not least, it has some pretty bad strut tower rust, and I don't know how much it would cost to fix the nasty shit growing around the towers. Damn rust.

[007jimmy]

I say fix it up and give it to the woman so down the road she will "LET YOU" get a toy after the wedding rather then going through the hassle of trying to fix it up while still staying in the sell for profit margin. it sounds like a good runner with just the usual rust issues for around your area. maybe you can get yourself a turbo model if you do some wheeling and dealing for one that has some issues. Im always coming across a craiglist ad where the owner needs to get a new car quick or doesnt know what they have but i fix cars for a living so i know how to knock down the price alot.

[WES_393]

Originally Posted by Dennyj1992

Pro's: It's DOHC, love these engines.
It's reliable, and great on gas!
It handles better then any other car I think I've ever really driven.
It looks wonderful, and Talons' are pretty rare cars around my parts. Especially a 2gb.
It's an auto, which is great for my girlfriend to drive on, since she can't drive a manual (yet).

Con's: Needs exhaust work, but will have that fixed next week.
Is extremely slow off the line, which of course, a turbo model isn't.
It's not turbo, which means it's slow of the line, and weaker then most cars on the road today. (Yes, I'm saying it twice).
My MPH gauge says 170, but it will never touch that lol.
It's an auto, which sucks for me.
Last, but for sure not least, it has some pretty bad strut tower rust, and I don't know how much it would cost to fix the nasty shit growing around the towers. Damn rust.

Even turbo models are pretty dang slow off the line. Unless you have launch control or anti-lag, you won't be impressing anyone by dropping the clutch. Once again, I suggest the Spyder GS. Tons of low end torque, very good looking, cheaper than any turbo DSM, easily converted to DOHC Turbo, and extremely reliable. I picked mine up bone stock, zero rust, and problem free with 90k for $3K. Not to mention I get 26mpg at 6,000ft above sea level.

[MHuddy1213]

yes they are haha my talon drags some serious A** off the line till the turbo kicks in

[Tsmith]

As a previous JBODY.ORG member and Jbody fan I can tell you that it is a whole new world you are getting yourself into. I agree that if you are looking to make this into your "toy" car, even if it still happens to be your DD, you should try to find a GSX or TSI. With that being said understand that the 4g63 platform has been around the tuner community for a long time now and there are performance upgrades for practically every component you can think of. I owned a 2003 Pontiac Sunfire with the Ecotec and got frustrated when looking for upgrades. I was contemplating between buying my GSX or a 98 Z24 and I am glad of the choice I made.
With all that being said welcome to the community and congratulation on the wedding plans. This forum has an amazing database and the members are mostly eager to lend any information you can ask for.

[TSIturbo91]

Keep the car for now and save money. Once you get a turbo model you'll get a need for speed and either push the car hard and brake something or just want to push the car harder and spend money on go fast parts. Either way they become a money pit. Personally I got mine because it was a favorite as a kid and I totaled my truck. Found mine near by for $1200 in '09 and I've got 5,000+ into it now. Some of that was just maintenance and more of it was performance parts. As it was said before, it gets addictive!!!

[Dennyj1992]

Originally Posted by 007jimmy

I say fix it up and give it to the woman so down the road she will "LET YOU" get a toy after the wedding rather then going through the hassle of trying to fix it up while still staying in the sell for profit margin. it sounds like a good runner with just the usual rust issues for around your area. maybe you can get yourself a turbo model if you do some wheeling and dealing for one that has some issues. Im always coming across a craiglist ad where the owner needs to get a new car quick or doesnt know what they have but i fix cars for a living so i know how to knock down the price alot.

Yah, I was thinking that maybe I should just give this car to my wife after we get married. That way I can get into something faster, and much more enjoyably quick. It still handles amazingly, and since it's a 2gb (making it more rare I think?) and it's great on gas and reliable, I think I'm gonna hold on to it for now. I got such a wonderful deal on it, and it's a great DD for every day use for work and back too. Speed is definitively my game, but for now, just having a rarer car at such a young age is one thing I don't wanna miss out on. Having just another car on the road that everyone drives is kind of depressing to me.

Thanks for all the welcomes and congratulation posts so far everyone, and I'm sorry if I missed any replies that should of been answered on my part.

Originally Posted by WES_393

Even turbo models are pretty dang slow off the line. Unless you have launch control or anti-lag, you won't be impressing anyone by dropping the clutch. Once again, I suggest the Spyder GS. Tons of low end torque, very good looking, cheaper than any turbo DSM, easily converted to DOHC Turbo, and extremely reliable. I picked mine up bone stock, zero rust, and problem free with 90k for $3K. Not to mention I get 26mpg at 6,000ft above sea level.

Not a big convertible fan either, so everyone that suggested the Spyder, thanks, but no thanks. They get expensive with the hydraulic pumps (or lifts or whatever), and not to mention, winters are pretty harsh around where I live.

For now, I think I'm just gonna hold onto the 97'. It's great for getting me around where I need to go, and it's saving me money on gas and parts. Great trunk space for fireworks too! I'm a huge fan, lol.

After everything is said and done a few years down the road from now, I'm sure I'll get into something T/C'ed and play around with it, once I have a better paying job and all. Having a car that I want to constantly dump money into (to go faster) sounds like a lot of fun, but does get expensive, and I don't have that kind of cash, nor make it atm.

[93laser1g]

Originally Posted by Dennyj1992

Excellent replies everyone! Thank for the fast, and amazing input on such a short notice. I'm impressed, since a lot of other dumb forums just bag on you for whatever questions you ask, whether it's legitimate or not.

Back to the topic...so everyone here thinks I should flip it then? I forget to mention this, but I also have a wedding I may need to start saving up for, including the honeymoon and everything. Does that change a matter of things? For those who think I can flip it, what could I get out of it? It has 131k on it now, and it's a 4 speed, like I said before. I heard the manuals are (of course faster) but more reliable then the auto's as well? Also seems to be a pain in the ass, but my check engine light just randomly came on while driving today.

Downright irritating.

Hah, wow. I can't believe I totally forgot to tell you guys the main part lmao. It's an ESI N/T (which sucks, or else I would be keeping it for sure). Seems slow to me anyways, but my car before this was a 2200 Cavalier, and before that, the ol' 3.1 MPFI Z24 Cavalier. MUCH more torque off the line. This Talon is slow as shit off the line haha. It's all upper HP with these DSM's for sure.

IMO automatics are MORE reliable then the 5 speeds. Dsm tranny's are notoriously crappy sorry to say, the clutch is just touchy from the factory and shifting is usually notchy . Torque problems? it's just because it's n/a the 420a is a pefect daily driver but not so good for modding. If anything i would say sell off the 97 talon which is a rare dsm probably one of the hardest 2g's to find. and buy a 1g awd that will settle the torque problems If you wanna see why a 97 talon is worth more find the dsm rarity link. diamond star stopped producing the talon in 98 making the 2gb harder to find, BTW 2ga talon owners would love to have the body from your 2gb talon. it just looks sexier if its original body lol. post pics when you get a chance. and if you ever need help with anything automatic try talking to bud92gsx he's been a real help with me and my laser