Driveline - Intermediate Shaft Bracket Does Not Line Up Vertically to Block

[jmkoons]

DSMers,

I've looked thoroughly and not come across this type of misalignment issue in any driveline related thread. All other posts address either spacing problems regarding the A/C bracket, using an incorrect bracket for model year, or lateral spacing issues from either - a) intermediate shaft and halfshaft not fully seating together, b) halfshaft having issues seating into wheel, c) intermediate shaft having issues seating into gearbox.

This problem relates to none of the above. Car is at a garage after having the transmission rebuilt at Jack's. Quaife upgrade was done long ago, but something went haywire with the differential around August this year, and I obtained a warranty repair from the original seller. Jack's dropped the Quaife back in, gave me all new gears and a few upgrades, and shipped it back to the garage doing the R&R for the transmission.

The garage tells me that the intermediate shaft bolt holes are off by about 1/4 inch, with the bracket sitting slightly low. They won't continue without my permission to attempt forcing it in, but maybe that's a bad idea if it will strain the brand new rebuild I've waited 4 months to have finished (mainly due to warranty issues with the Quaife). The bracket apparantly came out fine, and they are at a loss as to why it won't line up vertically going back in, so they kicked the problem back to me and stopped work. Reply from Jack's was that there is no reason why the shaft should not seat properly going back in. The equal-length conversion on my FWD car was done long ago, and no one has ever remarked that I had the wrong parts or that fitting was any problem going in and out for either shaft before. Thanks in advance for your replies!

 

[black_gst]

this is a dumb suggestion... but did the trans get completly bolted back up with nothing in the way... also did the trans or block have both alignment dowls in place

 

[jmkoons]

Yes, I was assured that alignment dowels are all in place. The shop owner placed suspicions with the Quaife (unit itself or placement of) since that was worked on. Jack's has told me all was fine with the build, so I'm still stuck. I put the question back to them, and will also try asking Quaife. Thanks once more for comments.

 

[Rob10_99]

So what your saying is the shaft is not going in all the way I assume,
There's not a ball detent or ring on my shaft, that I recall, I just put mine on yesterday. Is there a detent or ball on the qualfe?

 

[jmkoons]

The intermediate shaft bracket has a vertical misalignment issue. The bracket sits about 1/4 inch too low for both bolt holes. I venture that it is impossible to warp a cast iron brace, so this cannot be the problem. Same shaft bracket, A/C setup, and block on the car for install as removal. It is not a matter of the shaft being blocked from entry into the transmission, as a few prior posters have encountered with their setup. It is not a lateral shift due to shafts not fitting together properly. I don't know about the mating between the shaft and diff, as I've not had a close look at that, but this is not where the garage indicates the problem lies. Thanks again to contributors.

 

[Rob10_99]

Are you sure their putting the right side in? haha

 

[jmkoons]

Updating status after input from several mechanics and manufacturers. Everyone draws a blank as to why this big a shift. Possibly some tolerances added up in a way that made a slight misalignment before into a very noticeable one now. The existing misalignement may have even contributed into premature failure of differential; just speculation. Local garage will slot holes vertically to relieve all shear force on bolts, slide shaft in, then Loctite the nuts and bolts into place. Road Race Engineering recommended filling in the slots back to round for snug fit, but local mechanic doesn't think that's necessary. Not sure what would work if I still wanted that done - Liquidmetal maybe? I'll try to get the slots machined properly to exact fit, since drilling or grinding by hand is going to be too sloppy. Confirmed again that all lateral alignment is perfectly fine. Parts press together along their axis as they should, so this is definitely not a source of the vertical displacement. If it drives well afterwards, I'll mark this resolved.

 

[colosimj]

I am having the exact same problem, with the exception that my intermediate shaft is 1/4" too HIGH vertically. Everything else lines up. The quaife and intermediate shaft are actually both new to the car (FWD). I know that there is a different part number of the intermediate shafts from auto to manual, and actually don't know what I have (its assumed to be manual). Does anyone know if there is a different bolt spacing on the shafts..?

 

[black_gst]

were your aligment dowel pins in place when you mated the trans to the block?

 

[donniekak]

I don't see how you could be out of alignment verticly. With one end of the shaft in my trans, and the other in the hub, i can move the part that bolts to the block up, and down a few inches. Have them unbolt the strut/spring from the driverside knuckle. I bet it will all fall into place then.

 

[colosimj]

yeah, the dowels were in place and I am not talking about the CV axle, talking about the intermediate shaft, in which the alignment is fixed. It looks to me that the only varaible that you have in that position is the angular misalignment within the diff itself. Unless of course that the carrier bearing hangers are different from auto to manual and I have the wrong one. I am going to check the relative level of the shaft going into the trans to ensure that it stays true over a full rotation. If it does, it can't be the diff, and I guess in this case, I can slot the holes...but thats why I posted on this thread, it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[donniekak]

What i'm saying is that even with one end in the trans, and the other end in the hub, there are a couple inches of play in the shaft where it bolts to the block. If the shock spring is still bolted to the hub it could push the shaft far enough down to cause your issue. Remember there is usually several hundred pounds compressing the spring, which is now free to extend to max travel. Try just putting the trans end of the shaft in and leaving the hub end free, that will show if it is a pure trans alignment issue.

 

[colosimj]

The hub is not currently on the car, only the trans and intermediate shaft. the play in the intermediate shaft is very small, maybe 1mm or so, I can't make up the difference with that play...I wish I could.

 

[doubleclutch99]

Can you get pics of the seals on the driverside input? where the intermedaite spline goes in the trans

 

[Calan]

Something is changing the angle of the tranny or the diff, relative to the block.

Not to beat it to death, but are you POSITIVE the bell housing is flush up against the block all the way around?

 

[colosimj]

yep. POSITIVE

Tomorrow, I plan on rotating the motor around to see if the shaft walks. If it does, the problem is in the diff. However, with tapered roller bearings, I just can't imagine how that is possible. We'll see. I was just hoping that I was missing something obvious.

still stumped, it doesn't appear to walk at all, everything is like it should be...

 

[colosimj]

not sure if I have solved the problem, but we did find, after way too much research (thanking my brother with a galant vr4) that it looks like one of my diff bearings was from a non-turbo, while the other was for a turbo model. The races fit snugly, but each bearing actually has a different taper angle to it. In reality, this shouldn't matter, but it looks like the non-turbo bearing may stick out a little farther than the turbo, and could have been misaligned for that fact. I have ordered a new bearing, and will post results.

 

[jmkoons]

As the original poster, I've gotten a resolution I can declare, but leaving this thread open since colosimj is still working on his similar problem. My Quaife differential was checked and refurbished by a warranty repair shop, then dropped into place by Jack's transmissions. Both shops were adamant that nothing was changed in the transmission side that could have caused the shaft to be displaced as I described, after a local shop bolted up the rebuilt gearbox.

For the fix, the intermediate shaft bracket was ground down through the bolt holes from the top, with a new steel block welded over the top of the grind, then cut and finished to make vertically elongated holes. Elongating by drilling or grinding upwards from the original bolt holes was not ideal because this would have removed all the remaining material over the top of the holes. The mod has the advantage of strengthening the resistance of the holes against snapping off at the unsupported material that would have been left on the sides of the half circles if simply left ground down. Unfortunately, no pictures are available of the fix, as I had the part handed off as soon it was modified. As to why this misalignment happened, it is still a mystery (see all the detail in my initial posts about considerations taken before deciding to take a radical approach.) Motor to transmission doweled in, same transmission case, same transmission seals, same shaft, same bracket, etc. etc. - everything checked again and again and again. Forcing the shaft down with extreme pressure may have worked to get the driveline in place, and I didn't want to tell the garage to do that and place all the strain on the newly built tranny and diff.

 

[IgotBoost91]

glad that you solved the problem

 

[toofast82]

From having the transmission itself apart a few times, I'm not really understanding how installing a Quaife LSD that is supposed to fit the car is going to cause this misalignment unless it is improperly shimmed which may cause some side to side shifting. That still really shouldn't cause an interference in getting the axle seated enough and I'm sure Jack's knows what they're doing in this manner and wouldn't worry about that. It would have to be very poor machining on Quaife's part of certain specific shimming instructions that were not followed
The front diff gear is meshing with the center diff gear and there really isn't much room for vertical play. If anything we are talking about a few thousandths/inch.

 

[doubleclutch99]

The reason i wanted to see pics of the trans earlier, was becuz i had the very same issue about a month ago . i could bolt the shaft to the back of the motor,and i could tighten it all the way down. but i had a gap in one side of the seal. all of my gear lube would leak out and the shaft would bind up. then i bought a used axle from the junkyard installed it and it lined up perfect. i don't know what was wrong with the previous axle . the only thing i can think of is that it has a galant trans in it . well anyway it kinda sounded like the same issue you had . glad to hear you got it fixed.

 

[colosimj]

Well jmkoons, I am glad you fixed the problem. I on the other hand have not yet. I took the trans completely apart, changed the bearings (again), reshimmed and installed tonight. Same problem. Probably going down the same route as you, but since you have had it done for a few weeks, I am wondering if you ever noticed anything bad with that fix?

Thanks

 

[jmkoons]

Colosimj - for your benefit and anyone else interested, I've driven the car out of the shop after months of delays (warranty parts waiting, mostly). Now, I can't take it around for test drives on the road since it isn't smogged. That problem is for another thread. The short ride back home was uneventful and the driveline seemed to behave perfectly fine. In time, I'll get to the idle tuning issues to change my registration from non-op to valid driving class so I can test it out without fear of impound.

 

[colosimj]

I just wanted to send a 2014 based update for anyone looking as I am hardly on the internet as much as I use to be. This fix worked fine for 3-5k miles, and it might have still worked fine with the exception that I took my transmission apart again (I think it was 2012) when I realized that I had an oil leak at the axle that I couldn't correct. It turns out that the diff was built by Quaife incorrectly and ( I really don't remember why now) this caused the seal to leak. Something about having a larger bore diameter than its supposed too. I had temporary fixed the problem with a collar on the passengers axle; but sent it in to Quaife to fix. They found the issue and sent me a new differential and all is well. Fast forward to today, I just replaced my intermediate shaft bearing as it had play in it (could be from the fix, could be from the miles) but I just happened to try to install another bracket that wasn't slotted. BINGO! So, I wish I could remember more info, but in this case, it was actually the Quaife...

 

[Eville140]

So a different intermediate shaft just bolted in without any problems? I'm having the same issue right now I'm probably going to go the slotting the bracket route and see if that fixes it and then search for a new intermediate shaft. I can get it bolted in, but it doesn't spin smooth and I can tell there is binding going on.