Wondering Exactly How Hard A 1G Engine & Tranny Swap into 2G Eclipse Will Be?

[bigdaddyslimtim]

Hi there. This is my first post so I'm going to try to make it a good one. I have finally gotten my first car that I can really do some work too and I'd like to start working on it immediately. I do have 2 problems however that I need some help with. The title pretty much tells the first problem I have. I have a 1998 N/T Spyder auto (trust me I didn't want auto it just happened to be what I could get). I want to put a 6bolt 4g63 into it along with manual transmission. So basically any and all knowledge about how to go about doing this would be great. I do already have a working engine and tranny from a 94 GS turbo I just don't know where to go from here. I will be trying to do most of this work myself with some help from friends who are a little more knowledgeable than I am. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

[DSMtaco]

Well WELCOME! 1st off, so ppl dont crucify you...there is alot of quality info in these forums, USE THE SEARCH BUTTON. You'd be amazed how many topics already have a million threads devoted to their cause. But hopefully this will help. Long, but lots of good info in it. Good luck bro.


The DSM 2G engine swap to a 1G 6 bolt 4G63 engine


This is for all you people who want to put a 1st generation (1G) 6 bolt 4G63 engine into a 2nd generation (2G) car. It doesn't matter if you don't know a whole lot about cars; this is a step by step explanation of everything. I did mine to a 96 (exact same as 95) Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX. It doesn't matter if it's AWD or not, it's only a step different at the end. I'm going to try to make things very simple, I'm not trying to down play anyone I'm just trying to make it easy to understand for everyone.

Why do the 6 bolt swap?

The 6 bolt engine was made between 1990 and July of 1992. The reason it's called a 6 bolt engine is because it has 6 bolts on the flywheel. The reason you want to put a 6 bolt engine into your second generation DSM is because these engines don't have the problem with crank walk, they are a better built engine, and were rated the 2nd best 4 cylinder engine ever made! They have been making the 4G63 engine since 1978; it's
much more solid than the 7 bolt engine. Some people claim that they can run 450+ HP on the stock internals of the 6 bolt. Oh, and for those of you who are thinking about putting a JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) Engine into it, don't bother, there is no difference between a JDM and USA except for the word "cyclone" on the intake manifold. So what you'll want to do is find an engine with lower miles at a junk yard or sometimes
you can find one online at various places.

What method to use? This engine swap is a very common one and there are 3 different ways of doing it so far, the Magnus Motor sports way, Road Race Engineering I, and the Road Race Engineering II. I will be doing it the Road Race Engineering II. Either way will work but I found the Road Race Engeneering II looked to be the best way.

What things do I need to buy?

These brands are highly recommended but not necessary

1. Get a NEW timing belt FROM THE MISUBISHI DEALER. If you listen to one piece of advice from me listen to this: get a timing belt from the
Mitsubishi dealer; they are different from the ones you get from an auto parts store e.g. Auto Zone or NAPA. I have compared them side by side and there is a big quality difference, racers swear by them. There is
also a timing belt offered by TODA racing that's supposed to be 200% stronger than anything else on the market:
http://www.todaracing.com/products/m...ming_belt.html

2. Get a New thermostat, they are an easy fix and it's a good thing to replace on an engine that you don't know too much about.

3. Get 5 quarts of 15w 40 Royal Purple engine oil, it's one of the best oils out there, if not the best. It runs about 5-6 bucks a quart. Your car requires 4.5L. Some people also run Mobil 1 or Amsoil.

4. Get 3 quarts of GM synchromesh for the transmission. These transmissions tend to "go bad" if any one hasn't noticed, and this tranny fluid is very compatible with it. You have to go to a GM dealer to get this stuff, just call them up. For many years of smooth shifting get this stuff. It runs about 10 dollars a quart.

5. Get a Mobil One 105 oil filter, they are bigger and better than other ones specified for the car by other manufacturers. They cost about
$11.50 each, or get a 92 Mitsubishi 3000gt VR4 oil filter. This will help with valve noise.

6. Get 1 quart of Red Line MTL or MT90 for your transfer case.

7. New clutch. If you are planning on having this car for a while, then you're going to want to put in a new clutch, better now than later.

8. New belts for AC, alternator and power steering.



Stock parts to get off your old 2nd generation 7bolt engine before you scrap it:

1. The tranny: The second generation trannys have vast improvements and are longer lasting, plus they have the engine mount to hook onto the engine cross member.

2. The turbo exhaust manifold - it is better designed for flow and resists cracking.

3. The AC pump, mounting bracket and tensioner that is on the bracket. It will fit the AC hoses better and it has a smaller pulley which means a little extra horse power.

4. The fuel rail with fuel pressure regulator and injectors, these will work better with your Engine Control Unit (ECU).

5. The Throttle Position sensor (TPS)

6. Throttle body elbow, it's bigger and will fit to your 2G air hose. You can port this to better fit your bigger 1G 60mm Throttle Body and remove the lip on the inside of the bend for better flow. Don't get too greedy while doing this; the metal's not that thick.

7. The power steering pump - you don't even need to disconnect the lines, leave it on the car.

8. The ribbed drive pulley to the power steering pump.

9. The driver's side engine mount that goes through the timing belt cover.

10. The Temperature sensor on the thermostat housing.

11. The little barrel capacitor on the top right of the intake manifold.

12. The Manifold Differential Pressure sensor (MDP), the sensor on the top of the intake manifold. Some people call this the Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) sensor, but because of the pressurized air put in by the turbo, it's called the MDP.

13. The pistons, the 2Gs have 8.5:1 static compression from the 7.8:1 of the 1G. It will take some machining of the stock 6-bolt rod to work with 2G pistons. That's if you want to tear the engine down.

14. For people who aren't concerned with performance the 2G intake manifold and throttle body will work just fine with your 6 bolt head and it will make the install much easier.


1G 6 bolt parts you'll want:

1. The complete 6 bolt block, head, and intake.

2. The 1st gen Blow Off Valve (BOV) it's a metal one that can hold a lot more pressure. It's set up differently but you can modify it to fit your 2g set up.

3. The 1st gen Turbo, (it spools up faster) and the oil cooling lines to it. Also a bigger after market turbo is a wonderful thing to do in the swap.

4. The Throttle body – 1G's have a bigger 60mm Throttle Body (TB) as compared to the 2G 54mm TB.

5. Cam Angle Sensor connector and wires to rewire into the 2G wiring harness. You can cut one of these off a junkyard wiring harness.

6.1G water pump, usually already on the engine, a new one wouldn't hurt they are not to expensive and are easy to change while the engine is out, after you put the engine in its virtually impossible.

7. The injector wire casing, it's the L-shaped plastic piece that bolts
onto the intake manifold.

8. Radiator hoses.

If you want to a little more horse power at the wheels what you can do is take your 6 bolt fly wheel and have it resurfaced and milled. A shop can mill off the 2 lips on the backside of the flywheel. This slight modification trims off 4 pounds of rotational weight! It's a very worthwhile modification that does not decrease reliability, if your flywheel is in poor condition don't do this as they can break and reek havoc upon you transmission bell housing. Also an after market light weight aluminum flywheel is a solid investment.





Tools needed:


A Chilton's Eclipse/Talon manual, it covers all the DSM years.

Your basic mechanic's tools, torque wrench, etc.

Engine hoist with balance bar

Engine stand (its handy)

Dremel or other grinding tool.





OK you're ready to start!



You can soften the seals on you timing belt cover, oil cap, radiator cap and injector rings by soaking them in some Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) for a day while you put the engine in. Be careful removing the seals, they become very brittle after time and can break if you flex them too much.



I am going to give you other web site addresses that explain certain steps in detail to keep this shorter, and because they do an excellent job.



1. The first step is changing the engine mount. You'll have to alter the engine mount setup to accommodate a 2g engine mount. This web site will tell you everything you need:
http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/1g2g.asp.

2. To install a new timing belt, just read your manual or go to
Visual Frequently Answered Questions - Home Page

3. Grind the belt cover to fit over the new engine mount, be careful and make it a good fit.

4. Now take the timing belt cover seal for the engine mount hole (soaking in your ATF), and cut it to fit the modified engine mount hole. Make sure you add a little extra on the ends to make it a tight fit. It wouldn't be a bad idea to put a spot of glue on the bottom edge, because if this falls into your timing belts it's really going to mess your engine bad. Some people do run without these, as they break often, but I think you'll want to keep as much dirt out of the timing belt as possible.

4. Now for the AC. You can use the 1st gen AC pump, and everything that's on the engine already. All you'll have to do is change the AC electrical connection on your wiring harness and take the alignment pin out.
You can do it the hard way for a small gain in HP, and a more solid set up. To do this take off all the 1g AC, just unscrew the 4 bolts that go into the bracket that holds in the pump and tensioner in. This is where you need to decide whether or not you're going to use your EGR. The EGR routes hot air into your engine when you first run it and it's cold. If you live where it's hot most of the year take it out you don't need it and it will give you some extra horsies. If you live, and plan on driving, where its cold most of the year (e.g. above the 45th parallel), then you probably want to keep it. To keep your EGR system is a big pain and I'm not going into the details of that since most of you are going to take it out anyways. So take out the bracket to the right of it,on it are vac lines to the EGR that are no longer important. This may look like it holds up the Intake manifold, but it doesn't and you won't compromise anything by removing it. Then put the 2gen AC bracket with the pump and belt tensioner back on and you're set.

5. Now is decision time: the MDP. Your first gen engine does not have this mounted on your intake manifold, either you can plumb it on to the top of the manifold with some drilling and welding, or you can connect it to the break booster vac line. This is the biggest line out of the back of the manifold. You'll have to lengthen your wires but it will work.

Either or will be fine.

6. Take off your 1g fuel rail, put on your 2nd gen Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) then put on your 2gen fuel rail, also put in your ATF soaked injector rings, wipe them off good

7. Put your 2g alternator on

8. Switch your 1st generation V-belt power steering drive pulley to your second generation ribbed belt pulley.

9. Put on your Power steering belt first,( it won't connect because your PS is still on your car). Then put on all the other belts. And you're set on that side of the engine.

10. Put on your Exhaust manifold. Be very careful putting these bolts in. The book will tell you to put them in at 36 Ft-Lbs. This is only if they are brand new, and I recommend getting new ones, but if they are old then only put them in to 26 Ft-lbs.

11. Bolt on your turbo. When you are doing this, connect the oil cooling lines to the turbo.

12. Put in your 2g temp sensor in the 1st gen thermostat.

13. Bolt on your fly wheel to 96 Ft-lbs with LocTite® on all the bolts.

14. Line up the clutch and pressure plate with the clutch alignment tool you got in your new clutch. Getting a new clutch now will save you money in the future.

15. You'll need to put on your 2nd gen starter bracket, but before you do this you'll have to modify it. The bolt hole on the bottom will not line-up and you'll have to grind a hole up and towards the front of the engine. Also the transfercase (AWD) will need more room to fit on. You'll need to trim where that bottom bolt was, trim it almost back to the original hole and you'll need to pull the metal out that's above and to the back of the engine. You'll see this all when you try to put on the transfercase and it won't fit on. No worries though, it's not that hard to grind and fit it when it is on the car.

16. Bolt on the tranny

17. Put the starter in place so you can bolt it on in the future




Now to put that 6 bolt in

1. In order to drop the engine in you will need to remove the radiator, the hood, and the engine cross member that goes from the fire wall to the front. Pneumatics are a big help here.

2. Put your engine on your hoist.

3. Engines just don't drop in, I'm sorry to say, but with some jimmying you can get the right, back and left engine mounts in place. Bolt them in and take your hoist off.

4. Fit your transfer case (AWD) back in, it should slide on. If there is a lot of resistance then you need to grind more off the starter mounting bracket. Put the drive shaft on when you are doing this. These bolts do not need to be in very tight; they are threaded into soft aluminum so don't put them in with a _ in. ratchet and torque them in!

5. Put the cross member back in.

6. Now I would hook up all of the hoses: the break booster vac line, heater hoses, turbo hoses, etc. I won't go into detail with all of this because I would have to write five more pages.

7. Hook up your AC.

8. Put your power steering pump on. (note to self: put the belt on it
first)

9. Put your axles back in.

10. Once you're done with all this you will have to get into the wiring

11. Bolt on your 1g or 2g starter with the ground wire connected and plug in the other connections.



Now for the wiring:

You'll have your wiring harness just sitting off to the side in a mess so find your injector wires they will have a black L-shaped plastic casing around them, put this just across the intake manifold. The other side of this harness is the battery and starter wires; these just lay on the battery tray for now.

Take the black wire casing off the harness and discard it

You'll have to change some of these wires around because the sensors are now in different locations. So you're going to have to tear open the harness to correctly do this. If you don't do this right you could end up with electrical problems because you didn't make good solid connections. So twist up your wires, fold them over, and after you put them in the butt splices pull them to make sure they are solid. When you're ready use Scotch 33+ electrical tape® to wrap things up.

You'll notice that the power pack (big rectangle plug) and the coil plug (triangular plug) on the 2gen would sit in between the manifold and the head. On your 6 bolt engine they are relocated and are now on the driver's side of the engine, in the back by the timing belt. Either you're going to have to take the sensors and move them to the plugs or you're going to have to extend the plugs to the sensors.

What I found was the easiest way to do this was to take the power pack and mount it to other side of the engine, no re-wiring necessary. Then for the other sensor take a 1g connection from an old wiring harness and run the connection to the sensor.

BAM you're done with that.

Now for the cam and crank angle sensors. Road Racing Engineers do a great job of these connections, and there's no need to do something twice.
Here's the web address:
RRE Instructions

Once you are done with all this, wrap everything back up in your Scotch 33+ and put that 1st gen cover back on. Bolt everything back on and you're set.

About the Engine Control Unit (ECU) (aka. ECM): it's mounted in the center counsel on the drivers' side. Just take out the dr. side council panel and you'll see it. Unclip the back of the bottom plug and use a tiny flat blade to remove the pins. The instructions are on the same page as the cam/crank sensor at
RRE Instructions

To find out where all the other connections go look in your Chilton's manual; it would take forever for me to describe all these to you. Everything else should just hook up fine. So, just look at a manual or have one of your friends come over with their turbo DSM for a visual of how everything connects. This web site may be helpful:
Virtual Tour of the DSM Engine Bay - Top index


Fluids:

~ Drain out that old oil if you haven't done that already and then put in your new Royal Purple oil. (Note on a used engine you might want to put some cheep sacrificial 5w 30 oil in it and add some sealers or Motor Flush in it. Run this for a week and then change it to your good oil.)

~Drain your transfercase and put in about _ of a quart of gear oil

~Drain and fill the tranny with your GM synchromesh

~Fill your radiator up, by the way

~Bleed your clutch system, Note: do this with your car level!

To be safe the best thing to do before you start your engine is too prime it. You do this by unplugging your fuel pump (very easy take out the rear seat and undo 4 bolts) then you take off your spark plug boots, crank the engine over for about 30 seconds then plug everything back in and start it up

Typically when you first start your engine it will rev up too 6k, and then it will die right down as soon as you start to drive it. Oil leaks are very common too some Lucas stabilizer oil is a good solution to engine oil leaks and transmission leaks.

After all this there will be some tuning to do to get time it right, but that's basically it.

Start your revamped 2nd Generation 6 bolt, turbo DSM, and enjoy.

Originally written by Luke Richard
Revised and shortened by Tyson

 

[snowborder714]

If you want to convert your N/T 4g64 into a turbo 4g63, you're going to need more than just an engine.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...5684-how-convert-4g64-spyder-6-bolt-4g63.html

Also, 1g transmissions do not work in 2g's. You'd have to find a 2g manual transmission to do the conversion.

 

[bigdaddyslimtim]

wow dude thanks, i'll be sure to search better next time, i just didn't know how to look for it exactly right, as soon as i figure it all out i'll recommend you for rep points

 

[DSMtaco]

Yea, didn't mean to jump down your throat if i came off that way. We all have to start somewhere! You'll find the search button in the tool bar at the top of the page, right next to forums. Depending on what your searching for, the different tools provided can help tremendously. If you have any other questions feel free to ask, and thank you!!! I'd LOVE nothing more than to get past my LURKER status.

 

[snowborder714]

When I searched for that, I used "4g63 spyder n/t".

And that's for the nice gesture of rep points, but I can't receive any more since I'm a wiseman. If that was meant for DSMtaco, then by all means, go ahead.

 

[bigdaddyslimtim]

ok one more quick question, i already have the 94 1G with the 4g63 in it and it's a manual tranny, i also have the 98 n/t spyder that is auto, do i need to try and do the tranny swap to manual first or should i do everything all at one time

 

[snowborder714]

Either or. If you feel more comfortable taking it one step at a time, you can do one swap and then the other.

But while you have everything out of the engine bay, I personally would do both at the same time. Although, to make it easier, do one swap and then the other and then combine them. So, do everything required for a 6 bolt swap, then do everything for the manual swap, and then put the tranny on the engine and then back into the car.

 

[DSMtaco]

More speciffically, let me see if i understand your situation....

You have a Spyder which is a 4G64 auto?
You want to swap in a 6 bolt 4G63 which you already have?
Additionally you want to add a manual conversion? (The manual tranny being from a 1g)

Engine wise...Here are some options to think about.
Your auto 4G64 already has more torque than a 4g63, so why not build its internals for a turbo, build your own turbo kit, convert the tranny to manual and call it good?

If you want the 4g63 for the 6bolt, you can swap it in, but it'll be more money and less stroke.

The swap is simple enough, but dont forget to change your ecu's. Your CAS might change too.

Then concerning the tranny....A 1G tranny CAN NOT be put in a 2G due to the mounts being different, and visa versa. Unless you want to fab it up, but i dont see that being worth the time and effort.

1G's have 1 mount on the tranny and 3 on the block.
2G's have 3 mounts on the tranny and 1 on the block.

You are going to need a transmission from a 2G that came with a 4g63 or the spyder that came with the 4g64 originally. There are some Galant transmissions you can use but I cant remember what years they were.

Hope this all helps.

Tyson

 

[snowborder714]

The swap is simple enough, but dont forget to change your ecu's. Your CAS might change too.

There is a list of what all needs changed in the link I posted above.

Then concerning the tranny....A 1G tranny CAN NOT be put in a 2G due to the mounts being different, and visa versa.

You are correct on the 1g tranny not fitting in a 2g, but the other way around is possible. You can put a 2g tranny in a 1g.

 

[erald01]

FYI 1g trannies are a lot weaker than 2g so you would be better off with a 2g tranny, and i noticed that this engine came off a 94 gs eclipse...i would check twice and make sure its a 6bolt because 94 engines are 7 bolts. Btw there is nothing wrong with a 7 bolt engines and YES they are as powerfull as the 6bolt, and can handle as much power, but people keep talking about crank walk sooo much that it scares a lot of newbies in the DSM world

 

[SanTa_]

So without any modifications, I can install a 7-bolt 1G/2G tranny onto the 6-bolt block?

 

[808DSM]

So without any modifications, I can install a 7-bolt 1G/2G tranny onto the 6-bolt block?

It would have to be a 2G tranny onto the 6 bolt Block and it should bolt up without any modifications I believe.

 

[LadieX]

Thanks for the great information. But I now have a big problem with the mounts from the 1st gen 4g63 not fitting on the 2nd gen eclipse. Same motor and everything but the 2nd gen engine eventually broke done like it does anyway. I've tried using the web site listed on how to get it fit. Do after market have converted mounts or do I have to build it myself? Please help, I have done so many researchs but i always end up here where the information is more reliable and accurate. So, any idea on the engine mounts?????????

 

[project98dsm]

Honestly you'd be better off making it yourself, at least IMHO. Some DSM shop might be willing to machine you one. I know Slowboy was going to build me a 6 bolt to go in my '98 GSX. You might even be able to check on eBay. I'll search around and get back at u. I just had a built 7 bolt shyt the bed on me twice so I'm gonna go the 6bolt route. Good luck man. Oh and FYI, don't worry about people ruffling your feathers about asking questions, yes I'm sure you've done your own research but sometimes there are too many relative and none of which thoroughly explain what you need to hear. There's plenty of people on this forum who are DSM wiz-kids but find it easier to pass someone off with a "do ## research" response, and they fail to realize that's what forums are for. Dsmtuners actually recommends u to not respond with "search" or "do ## research" or "check the newbie forums". They prefer u to not respond to a post at all if u have no guidance but mods are getting pretty lenient. Again good luck and if u have any questions, ask me, and if I can help I will.

 

[bornine2000]

There is a list of what all needs changed in the link I posted above.



You are correct on the 1g tranny not fitting in a 2g, but the other way around is possible. You can put a 2g tranny in a 1g.

that is not true , i have installed 1g transmissions in 2g
it requires some drilling and some welding but is way cheaper than a 2g manual tranny , it is not your ideal mod since 2g transmissions are better but if you can't afford a $600 gst tranny this will do the job
if anyone needs info how to do it email me

 

[Johnboy72]

Wow, brain overload! But good info for this newbie! I now know that mt Cyclone is a 1G. I searched and this was the closest I got to trying to find out what year motor I have.