quick question on turbo comparison gt30/fpGreen/50trim

[slidesquad]

as the title states i am looking into a turbo upgrade i am looking at a gt30 with Mitsubishi housing or a fp green or a 50 trim.. i have a galant vr4 my setup is
.03 over block
crower rods
ross 9.0 pistons
1mm over valves
hks 272/280 cams
9lb fly wheel act 2600 clutch
740cc injectors
cooling mist 50/50 meth
dsm link
buscher racing fromt mount
thats just the basics

i just got this car running i am looking to break 11.6 on 20-23 psi and 11.1 on 27-30 psi i have been tunning for years just new to the dsm crowd.. my question is what turbo would suit my needs i here so much good about the fp green turbo.. and the gt30.. i know i need a tranny upgrade but that will come as soon as it blows . so lets get some opinions on turbo size. and how much hp will it take to reach my goals. i do have the driver mod 1.603 60ft old street tire 14b turbo 20psi 3 bolt no 2step.. any and all info is appreciated

 

[dsm-onster]

You've been around long enough, then you know that boost is relative. Why are you so concerned about pinpointing an e/t with a certain boost then trying to match a turb to it?

The FPgreen and run of the mill 50-trim have the same compressor. The fpreen however has a better turbine wheel: the td06h. It spools faster than the t31 wheel with which the 50-trim is typically equipped. Yet it flows atleast the same, if not more, than the t31 wheel. This why the fpgreen performs better than the average 50-trim.

The gt30 turbo comes in several flavors. There are 2 compressor options: one flows 48lb/min (like a 50-trim compressor) and one flows 52lb/min (like an early hx35). The turbine wheel design is better than the td06H. It is non-rebuildable.

There are more options out there for bolton turbos and turbos in the same flow range (on both ends of the turbo) that spool MUCH faster and are more affordable and are rebuildable yet at least as reliable if not more. All these turbos cost the same or less than a 50-trim. All cost at the most 1/4 less than the cost of an fpgreen. And you can get these turbos for half the cost of an overrated GT turbo.

BEP Borg-Warner S256. Has a better compressor design than the holsets. 59-60 lb/min compressor. Better than all turbos within the same flow range. Has a better turbine design than all, but the holset (it comes close). Spools almost as fast as an evo3 16g (full boost by 3700rpms in 3rd). Flows way more than an fpgreen. Search there are low 11sec times with this turbo. The bolton housing will choke your topend a little sou you may not be able to reach the full 60lb/min potential of the compressor.

Later Holset HX35 with the bep turbine housing. The later 7blade unit is holset's S256. just as good a compressor, better turbine. less expensive but you have to get them from the later 1999-2002 cummins pickups. 11.1 in the 14 mile with more left in it on several setups. Spools about as fast as a S256 or a little later than an evo3 16g (full boost by 3700rpms in 3rd). The bolton housing will choke your topend a little sou you may not be able to reach the full 60lb/min potential of the compressor.

Early Holset HX35 with the bep turbine housing. The early 8blade compressor flows as much as a gt3076r (biggest gt30), and spools as fast as a 16g. The compressor can still be maxed out at 52 lb/min. Therefore the faster spool is not a sacrefice of topend performance.

Holset WH1C with the bep turbine housing. Same compressor design as the eary hx35 but with an easily removable/clockable compressor housing. Same turbine wheel as all hx35 turbos. 20+ psi by 3500rpms just like the early hx35 and evo3 16g.

Holset H1C with the bep turbine housing. Full spool at or very close to the SMALL 16g. I have directly swapped the small 16g to the h1c and kept my setup IDENTICAL. I have logs of full boost (22psi) by 33-3400rpms in 3rd gear. This compressor flows a little less than the 52lb/min wh1c and early hx35. Around the same flow as a 50-trim, 20-g or FPgreen. Kills them with spool speed. Peak flow is the same, the turbine doesnot choke the compressor because it is the same awesom hx35 turbine wheel and bep turbine housing that outflows the 52 lb/min hx35.

Tech was actually put into the aerodynamics and fluid dynamics of the wheels instead of whimsically dumping investment into bandaid ballistic center section technology. Technology actually to make the wheels reach boost faster and flow more, instead of trying to ease the symptoms with a non-rebuildable bearing structure. These turbos defy conventional thinking, because they are not BB but they spool MUCH faster than their BB counterparts. They manage that faster spool without the loss of flow typically neccesary on the turbine side. And on top of that they cost less while being more reliable.

I love talking about turbos and especially those that are underrated overachievers. The Holset hx40 pro has been logged to spool within 150rpms of the gt30r (gt3076r). And the hx40 pro flows as much as a gt4088r. There is a BW counterpart that does about the same.

 

[pboglio]

Interesting. Holset H1C with the bep turbine housing will spool at 3300-3400 rpm? How is the transient response?

I've contemplated a GT3076 or GT3071 but every dyno plot I've seen shows spool to be quite laggy. I'm also not digging an $800 CHRA if things go south.

 

[dsm-onster]

It doesn't drop between shifts any more than any other 16g powered car I've driven. I love this turbo! It takes some work to get it on. But no more custom work than a bolton gt30r. You can feed this turbo from the head if you have good oil pressure and no b shafts.

 

[slidesquad]

You've been around long enough, then you know that boost is relative. Why are you so concerned about pinpointing an e/t with a certain boost then trying to match a turb to it?

i completely understand boost is relative its just a measurement of restriction.. just figured it would make it easier to understand how i want "use" or utilize the efficiency of these turbos.. so some one dont say get a evo 3 and weld the wastegate shut and run 38lbs

i apreciate your time.. this info is very very helpfull.. i will look into the bw s256 and the hx35.. i need alot more info before i make my decision now o well i love reading on the net

 

[dsm-onster]

. . . so some one dont say get a evo 3 and weld the wastegate shut and run 38lbs

Good man. You've been researching here in detail so far then . Those responses frustrate me too. Here's the 4th of 4 holset threads. Yes, please research. You know a turbo decision is a make or break deal. Nice to see another converted DSMer. Depending on from where you came, you will be impressed or dissappointed. There's nothing like a T/E/L.

 

[slidesquad]

looking into it more i am leaning to a hx40... or maybe hx35 whats your opinions on these turbos?

 

[We're on Boost]

Matt, is there such a thing as buying a NEW H1C? I mean actually built and assembled by Holset, not a reman. Or has Holset quit making new H1C's?

 

[dsm-onster]

Since they were built for 1989-1993 cummins motors, I assume they are not being manufactured anymore. . . A rebuilt turbo is as good as a new one. There's only one moving assembly. Buying a good core and having it rebuilt is also much more affordable than a new turbo

The hx40 is a a great turbo. The 6blade super 40 compressor hx40 has been proven to spool to full boost by 4100ish rpms in the bolton Bullsye Power housing with 272 cams. Stock cams will make it spool faster. In that same bolton housing, it hs been pushed to 653whp. It is more streetable than a gt35r (faster spool), with more flow potential.

 

[We're on Boost]

The HX35 would probably be more my speed. I've been plowing my way through the Holset thread part 4. You have a good summary of the Holsets in there and the HX35 and the H1C were the ones that look right for me. I just got to the part where Bullseye apparently quit making turbine housings for the Holset turbos!! That was back in august. Do you know, what is the outcome of that?

 

[We're on Boost]

Maybe this is why I had trouble finding posts by badman21 - he doesn't have any!
So thanks for the link.
But I see he does have a profile which shows a Shearer tubular manifold with a GT3076 on it. Do you know what kind of manifold he uses with the HX40? His pics show the Shearer T3 manifold. Which reminds me, you had a post in Holset #4 that says "none of the faster running Holset cars use a stock or Evo manifold" or something like that - so what do they use?

Thanks,
Gary

 

[dsm-onster]

The old t3 .55 ar bep housing. So he runs the small bep housing with a tubular manifold. This means that the bep housing si NOT, NOT, NOT a restriction. I takes a cobination of a poor turbin wheel choice and a poor exhaust manifold to see a huge difference in a turbin housing upgrade. The BEP bolt on housing is GREAT. You need to give it the proper exhaust gas flow at the inlet. It's your fault if you don't give a turbo a chance with a stock exhaust manifold with a 600whp build. Big DSM myth number ONE: the ehaust manifold is not a worthwhile upgrade for a 350whp car.

 

[We're on Boost]

Matt, I'm going to get myself over to the Holset thread, but that thread is so busy, ~ 15 posts per day, I'm going to finish this one here because I think you're more likely to see it here! Thanks for the PM btw on the other question.
Badman21 - shearer tubular mani w the .55 a/r BEP T3 turbine housing - that is exactly what I had in mind doing. Doing it with the BEP DSM housing and DSM mani is more my second choice even though it would be a lot cheaper. So, do you know if Bullseye still makes the T3 .55 a/r housing for the HX-35? I actually didn't know they ever made one, I don't think their lousy web site lists one.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[dsm-onster]

They CAN build it. But apparently they stopped building them. They used to have them in stock. I would call. They just may have an old one laying around. Or may start producing them again, if there is a demand. I think the Mitsu inlet housings are in more demand. They do make and keep stocked a .70 a/r t3 housing. This is going to put you back about 400rpms in spool speed based on the results posted in the holset threads.

The FP race manifold is a VERY proven upgrade exhaust manifold. This will allow you to run a bolton housing. Unless you've already bought the manifold, I would go this route for a max effort small BEP housing turbo.

 

[We're on Boost]

That's probably what I'll do then, use the FP manifold and the BEP DSM style .55a/r housing. It'll be a lot cheaper than T3 and should still have screamin good performance.

 

[dsm-onster]

Actaully you will probably be the first to use a real good name brand manifold on an h1c/hx35 with a .55 ar housing. Guys are seen low elevens with stock manifolds. . . You should have a GREAT setup.

 

[chrisb33]

Matt, I'm going to get myself over to the Holset thread, but that thread is so busy, ~ 15 posts per day, I'm going to finish this one here because I think you're more likely to see it here! Thanks for the PM btw on the other question.
Badman21 - shearer tubular mani w the .55 a/r BEP T3 turbine housing - that is exactly what I had in mind doing. Doing it with the BEP DSM housing and DSM mani is more my second choice even though it would be a lot cheaper. So, do you know if Bullseye still makes the T3 .55 a/r housing for the HX-35? I actually didn't know they ever made one, I don't think their lousy web site lists one.

Thanks,
Gary

Gary,

I believe timsturbo and/or theturbotrader has those T3 housings for the hx-35. drop tim an email - [email protected]

chris b

 

[We're on Boost]

I did try calling turbotrader today and got a recording. Somebody in the Holset 4 thread was complaining about turbotrader taking off with their money, wonder how that turned out.
Tim's Turbos seems like it should be a good place - they are apparently actually a shop that does rebuilds. I just sent Tim an email.
I also called Bullseye. They told me they have a very few of the DSM housings left, for external wastegate, and none of the T3 housings left, and that they aren't going to make any more stuff for Holsets. That was not Dave or Dan, that was a woman who answered the phone. I think they've decided they want to sell the Borg Warners, period. She even said they are cutting back on Garrett stuff.

 

[chrisb33]

I did try calling turbotrader today and got a recording. Somebody in the Holset 4 thread was complaining about turbotrader taking off with their money, wonder how that turned out.
Tim's Turbos seems like it should be a good place - they are apparently actually a shop that does rebuilds. I just sent Tim an email.
I also called Bullseye. They told me they have a very few of the DSM housings left, for external wastegate, and none of the T3 housings left, and that they aren't going to make any more stuff for Holsets. That was not Dave or Dan, that was a woman who answered the phone. I think they've decided they want to sell the Borg Warners, period. She even said they are cutting back on Garrett stuff.

Email dave directly - [email protected]. Tell him i sent you.

chris b

 

[We're on Boost]

Ok, thanks Chris!

 

[vigge]

I love talking about turbos and especially those that are underrated overachievers. The Holset hx40 pro has been logged to spool within 150rpms of the gt30r (gt3076r). And the hx40 pro flows as much as a gt4088r. There is a BW counterpart that does about the same.

Domestically (Finland) when you buy a Holset Hx40Super from a Holset dealer you get a turbo which looks like this
Image gallery
Compressor is 7-blade design, but differes from the normal Hx40 7-blade wheel. Turbine is of 10-blade design. Have mine with #16 housing.

Spool in my 2.3 more or less indentical to previous GT3071 ar. 0.86
http://www.stcf.net/viggen/h40super16_30711.gif
1.5bar (~22Psi) gave 493whp on the dyno and more is one the way when other hw (fuel side) is upgraded.
Same type turbo has been utilized in simalar displacement engines to 700+ bhp

 

[dsm-onster]

Thank you !!!!! for the actual boost vs. rpm log. This will put to sleep some of the controversy of the hx40 spooling slower than smaller BB turbos. Which turbine housing is this? the 16cm^2 housing? The 16cm^2 twin scroll housing would be nearly identical in volute areas as the .84 a/r twinscroll housing. It looks like the 16cm^2 housing because the inlet has a t3 boltpattern. Or is it a 14cm^2 turbine housing. Or is it the 14cm^2 housing?

 

[andy4g63]

Matt, I know he said it is a HX-40, 7 blade, but looking at the pitures, he provided :Image gallery , it doesn't even look like 60mm inducer/I know it is 7blade-uneven and hard to measure, but even if meter is opened little more, it wouldn't be 60mm.

Look at the compressor exducer - 80mm, as opposed to 85mm . My guess is mabe this is HX35- 7 blade. I don't know about their turbine wheel, but this not HX-40 turbine wheel.

Just curious, which one is it??? DSM-ONSTER, please !!!

P.S. Otherwise, you made excellent power at that boost level, vigge ...

 

[vigge]

Matt, I know he said it is a HX-40, 7 blade, but looking at the pitures, he provided :Image gallery , it doesn't even look like 60mm inducer/I know it is 7blade-uneven and hard to measure, but even if meter is opened little more, it wouldn't be 60mm.

Look at the compressor exducer - 80mm, as opposed to 85mm . My guess is mabe this is HX35- 7 blade. I don't know about their turbine wheel, but this not HX-40 turbine wheel.

Just curious, which one is it??? DSM-ONSTER, please !!!

P.S. Otherwise, you made excellent power at that boost level, vigge ...

The turbo you're looking at is the HX40-super of which this advert is for
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/8574/holsetmapcolordk8.jpg
and the wheels (both compressor and turbine) in it are specifc to the super40 and come from Cummings/Holset own performance department.

Wheels measure 60mm for the compressor inducer and 65mm for turbine exducer.
~58mm was the result for the compressor when the sliding caliber tips touched the wheel tips, but as stated above the 7-wheel is uneven and cannot be masured like that.

Likewise the Super40's big brother the Pro52 mentioned in the same advert has wheels unique to the turbo which cannot be found in any std production Holsets. Here is a pic of the Pro52 compressor
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3557/pro523uz7.jpg

 

[vigge]

Thank you !!!!! for the actual boost vs. rpm log. This will put to sleep some of the controversy of the hx40 spooling slower than smaller BB turbos. Which turbine housing is this? the 16cm^2 housing? The 16cm^2 twin scroll housing would be nearly identical in volute areas as the .84 a/r twinscroll housing. It looks like the 16cm^2 housing because the inlet has a t3 boltpattern. Or is it a 14cm^2 turbine housing. Or is it the 14cm^2 housing?

Turbine housing is 16cm^2 twin scroll, flange T3 and exhaust manifold design puls-split.
The GT3071 I had was the T25 flange model, turbine inducer 56.5mm Trim 84.

Have many other measurement results from this turbo also with 14cm^2 since its a quit popluar choice over here somebody is interested, but from non DSM cars though.