shuddering & CEL investigation, wtf is this turbo?

[AlphaAssault]

So I was investigating possible causes of a shudder which led to a CEL. I searched the engine bay for boost leaks, then took the intake off to look at the turbo. The turbo spins freely, but when i was messing with it, I noticed something. Behind the fins, if i stick my fingers in further, are a second set of fins about 1/2 an inch behind the first set. WFT, is it supposed to be like that? the turbo looks small, and has td05h (i think) stamped onto the side of it, and i always thought that it was the stock turbo. help?

I attached a pic of what im talking about, but i couldnt get the camera into a good angle. You can just make out the second set of fins in this pic.

 

[coryd]

i cant see anything from that pic

 

[AlphaAssault]

Sorry, it sucks, but i figured that someone who read the post in addition to the picture might be able to tell me something. I wasnt even going to post a picture, but I figured it couldnt hurt. Focus on the post, not the pic.

 

[19Eclipse90]

Two sets of fins normally designates a 16g turbo. Take the intake pipe off and take a picture of the wheel and post it up.

As for the title of your post, what about your shuddering and CELs do you have questions about?

 

[demografik]

it's probably your stock 14b. perfectly normal. what is the code for the CEL?

 

[AlphaAssault]

Two sets of fins normally designates a 16g turbo. Take the intake pipe off and take a picture of the wheel and post it up.

As for the title of your post, what about your shuddering and CELs do you have questions about?

Well, the car begins to lurch when entering boost, which leads me to believe There is a boost leak in the system somewhere. However, after the car lurches, it throws a check engine light my way. I wasnt aware a boost leak would throw a CEL, unless its retarding timing for some reason. Could bad spark plugs/wires cause this type of behavior? Because thats the only thing I can think of. I can push in the clutch and rev the engine past 5k no problem.

I called up several parts stores to see if they could pull the code, but all of them in my area either charge $90 for a "full engine diagnostic" or (like autozone) only have OBD II readers and cant pull the code from my car. Im really out of ideas at the moment, my only thought was to replace the plugs and wires and see if that fixed the problem.

 

[JusMX141]

Behind the fins, if i stick my fingers in further, are a second set of fins about 1/2 an inch behind the first set. WFT, is it supposed to be like that? the turbo looks small, and has td05h (i think) stamped onto the side of it, and i always thought that it was the stock turbo.

The "TD05H" marking tells us that it can be any variation of turbo using the TD05H turbine- the 14B, 16G, Big 16G, or EvoIII 16G.

From what I can barely see in your pic, the fins are indeed staggered, so you have some variant of a 16G. Climb under the car and look at the part number partially cast and partially stamped into the compressor cover. It will be 10 digits long:
49178-05200 = Small 16G
49178-01420 = Big 16G
49178-01460 = Evo 2 16G
49178-01470 = Evo 3 16G

 

[19Eclipse90]

Well, the car begins to lurch when entering boost, which leads me to believe There is a boost leak in the system somewhere. However, after the car lurches, it throws a check engine light my way. I wasnt aware a boost leak would throw a CEL, unless its retarding timing for some reason. Could bad spark plugs/wires cause this type of behavior? Because thats the only thing I can think of. I can push in the clutch and rev the engine past 5k no problem.

I called up several parts stores to see if they could pull the code, but all of them in my area either charge $90 for a "full engine diagnostic" or (like autozone) only have OBD II readers and cant pull the code from my car. Im really out of ideas at the moment, my only thought was to replace the plugs and wires and see if that fixed the problem.

Run a boost leak test to locate your leak and find an Ohm meter with a couple sets of gator clips to read your own codes. Both procedures can be found online. I don't believe bad plugs and wires are the cause of your problem. A boost leak would definitely cause the shuddering and the CEL could be something in conjunction with the leak. Find out and report back if you are still stuck.

 

[ROOKIE1]

Also fill in your profile . Helps us to know as much about your car as possible . Keeps the repetitive questions down . Questions like what mods do you have .

 

[GST racer]

Have you recently washed your engine bay? Just wondering, because I've seen a few cars shudder in boost after washing, and getting something electrical wet.

For the CEL, you an turn the key off and on a few times in order to get the CEL to flash. How it flashes determines what your problem is. Unfortunately, I don't know the process for it, but you should probably be able to find it on the vfaqs.

Changing the plugs and wires wouldnt hurt. Check the plug gap, and make sure you have the right plugs. Check your o2 sensor wiring. Make sure your vaccuum lines are all connected. Check the wastegate and make sure all that works properly. Check your bov, are you venting or recirculating? Check the coupler that connects the intake pipe to your turbo. Check your throttle position sensor and wiring. Make sure your throttle plate is opening all the way. Are you using anything to tune your car with? Do you have a boost controller? Does smoke come out of the exhaust? There are a billion reasons why a DSM shudders . I'll find that vfaq for you about the CELs on the 1g's.

EDIT: This site tells you how to hook up an LED to your diag port to get your CEL readings.(1g, T, AWD) Have your own ECU diagnostic tool for less than 2 dollars!!

there is a way to turn the key to make the actual CEL flash, but the site is gone. Hope this helps.

 

[AlphaAssault]

Could this be caused by the alternator; or, more specifically, the alternator killing the ECU? Is it displaying symptoms of that? Its weird, because it doesnt really seem like an electrical problem. As the turbo kicks in, if there is any amount of boost on the gauge, I feel lurching through the vehicle instead of the familiar surge of power. On top of this, it produces a CEL, which, as far as I can tell, is unusual for a boost leak, a boost leak being what I thought it might be. However, when I keep my foot on the clutch and rev the engine, I can get past 5k rpms easily. This also points to a boost leak. I am very confused with this issue.

As of yet, I have not found a place that will read my CEL code. Autozone only has OBD II readers, and cant get the code from my car. All the other places charge to have the code pulled, so I will most likely make my own little reader with an LED and wires. At the moment, I have some new plugs and wires I am going to throw in there when it stops being freaking cold. Also, I am going to swap out the hacked up MAS for a stock one, so hopefully this combination of replacements will solve this lurching problem. However, I am still wanting info on other possible causes of this behavior.

Finally, if someone could make me a boost leak tester, I would be willing to pay them for it. I do not have the equipment (i.e. drill) to make one. I have replaced a crapload of parts on my car with only a basic set of tools, but I am unable to make a tester without a drill.

 

[AlphaAssault]

While Im thinking about it, what should the spark plugs be gapped at? I read that .028 or .032 is what they need to be at, but which is preferable?

 

[19Eclipse90]

There is no point in diagnosing a problem blindly. Figure out what is wrong with the CEL, run a boost leak test and fix leaks when you find them. For all we know, those are your only problems - and we don't even know what they are because you aren't testing them. I don't want to sound condescending, but it could be such a large number of things that we need some sort of lead to work off of.

Spark plug gap would have been easily found with a search.
Post 15 - the correct gap is .028".

Alternators can cause all sorts of problems - however, it doesn't seem like it is related in your situation.

To read the codes on a 1g, follow this link (note: also found by searching) Pulling Codes on a 1G.
-You don't need a buzzer or an LED light, a simple mechanical Ohm meter will do the job. However, if you don't have access to one of those, it will probably be cheaper to do it as suggested above and in the link.

As for the boost leak tester: As stated, requires no modification to the individual parts.

Hope that helps.

 

[jkimes]

Definitely find out what code is being thrown and check for boost leaks... if you don't find any leaks, try changing your fuel filter. When mine was bad I had the same problem. Good Luck

 

[AlphaAssault]

Alright, im going to buy the parts for the boost leak tester and CEL "reader" tomorrow. However, I have a question about the reader. When my car throws the CEL, the light doesnt stay on. It will come on for a few seconds, then go away, then come on again a few seconds later. If i turn off the car then turn it back on, the CEL is off. How am I supposed to check the code if its not producing one on startup? Does turning the key in the ignition a few times drag up the last code produced?

 

[silver bullit]

I dunno if its me or not but it looks like you have a bent or broken blade on your turbo.

Get a better pic, and does it have shaft play in and out side to side?

 

[AlphaAssault]

I dunno if its me or not but it looks like you have a bent or broken blade on your turbo.

Get a better pic, and does it have shaft play in and out side to side?

Yea, the picture sux. The turbo has 2 sets of fins, apparently, and is operating as it should. All fins are accounted for, and there is no shaft play. I dont believe the turbo to be the issue.

 

[silver bullit]

When can you get a better pic?

 

[19Eclipse90]

Alright, im going to buy the parts for the boost leak tester and CEL "reader" tomorrow. However, I have a question about the reader. When my car throws the CEL, the light doesnt stay on. It will come on for a few seconds, then go away, then come on again a few seconds later. If i turn off the car then turn it back on, the CEL is off. How am I supposed to check the code if its not producing one on startup? Does turning the key in the ignition a few times drag up the last code produced?

The code should store in the computer's memory.

 

[AlphaAssault]

The code should store in the computer's memory.

So let me get this strait: I hook up the buzzer, then turn the key in the ignition to the ON (without firing the engine) position, then to the OFF position three times, and the buzzer will begin to chirp out the pulses of the last CEL code. Is this correct?

 

[19Eclipse90]

No. You leave the key in the 'On' position.

 

[AlphaAssault]

No. You leave the key in the 'On' position.

Oh, so leave the ignition on and then the thing will beep out the last code. I think I got it.

 

[AlphaAssault]

Ok, i plugged the buzzer in, and I got some codes for yall:

12-Volume airflow sensor
13-intake air temp sensor
14-throttle position sensor
25-barometric pressure sensor

This to me sounds like my MAS just **** the bed. Except for that throttle position sensor, what is that all about? does it sound like I need a new MAS? Any other Ideas?