2g limits and potential

[DSMopar]

I'm going to be looking at a 95 talon AWD pretty soon here... I just barelly missed out on a nice 91 for cheap . Basically I want a DD in the 13s for cheap... I've been trying to get direct information but so far i've just got ambiguous answers. There's plenty of threads on mods but no one tells you what the mods will net you 1/4 mile wise...

So... i've heard the 2g's have a weak bottom end and the turbo is smaller than the 1gs... What is the max you can get out of the stock 2g turbo? Can I net 13s with the stock turbo, head, and cams... and keep it smog legal (CA)? And if so what's the fastest I can go with the stock turbo, head and cams?

I've read a little on crank walk, am I to understand the crank thrust bearing surface wears out? If so i'll bring a large screwdriver with me...

 

[jlucas05]

I think roughly the most you can get out of that T-25 is 240-250...and as far as bottom end the 1g's have bigger rods and the 2g's have better pistons.

 

[pukrnukr]

Go to the bragging rights section, then the quarter mile time you want to be around and see what turbos and supoorting mods people are running. You can get into the 13s with a stock turbo on a 2G (with the right supporting mods), but it will be easier and more fun of a car to drive if you upgrade to a 14b or 16g. You can pick up either turbo for fairly cheap, especially if their used. Either way you go, 1G or 2G, 13s can be achieved on a stock head and cams. Both cars will be very reliable since your goals are not too extreme, as long as you buy a car that has been taken care of and you continue to take care of it.

 

[99gst_racer]

The stock turbo on a 2G is a T25. They suck for performance.
Whether you pick-up a 1G or a 2G, swap an E3-16G onto it and with the supporting mods and decent driver, and you should be good for consistent 13 second passes.

Just search around the 1/4 miles times list on this site. HERE
Scroll down to the 13-second guys and view their profiles to see what modifications they used to achieve those times.

 

[DSMopar]

sooo what do these cars run stock? I'm seeing alot of mid 14s with alot of mods , barelly any 13 second cars with t25....

 

[fastfour]

you can run 13's on a t25 but you are going to be beating the car to death trying to doit. Stick a used 14b on for a hundred bucks or better yet a MHI EVO16g and you can granny the car to 13's.....

 

[fastfour]

also, if your goal is 13's the engine never needs to be touched. 2g head will get you to to at least 600HP its basically about the same setup head as an EVO3, 2g cams suck but 13's are attainable no problem on stock cams. All you will need is an AFC, BOV, Filter, boost gauge and controller and possibly Exhaust with some good driving skills and a good tune. I would recommend exhaust. You can get an EGT gauge to help tune. I wouldnt worry too much about blowing it up on a t25 because you cant really run over 16psi to redline anyways.

 

[DSMopar]

well show me these 13 second t25 combos, seems like they have tons of $ in mods... i'm looking to spend hundreds in mods... not thousands...

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Everyone is telling you basically the same thing.
The message, as I see it, is that with the T-25 don't bother going for deep 13second passes. It's not worth the time/money/abuse to your car.

Upgrade your turbo.

You can be in the 13's for very cheap. As mentioned above, pick up a used 14b and tune it.
Actually, read this site cover to cover, then get a 14b and tune the hell out of it .

But keep in mind, 13second passes are only .6 seconds away from stock. Definitely an achievable goal.
Good luck.

 

[DSMopar]

ok say I did a turbo swap, are any of them CARB legal for this car?

 

[thekellbeast]

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the T-28. It's abolutely identical to the T-25, bolts on easily, but increases the potential amazingly. From the times lists (www.dsmtimes.org and tuners), a lot of them look like they're in the low 13's to mid 12 second range.

When you're starting to modify your car, look into the upgrade path. Free mods, stage 1 and 2 should give you a good starting point. http://www.dsmtuners.com/sub.php?page=2gtupgrades.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

ok say I did a turbo swap, are any of them CARB legal for this car?

Greddy makes a CARB legal turbo, I think its an 18g.
but really? If you're just swapping to a 14b/16g I wouldn't really worry about it. Possible you could get busted but unlikely so long as you put your snorkel/airbox back, use the stock piping/bov for smog.

But the best option if you want to be 99.9% sure is to get a FP Big T-28. As mentioned above, it is visually identical to the T-25 while being capable of around a max of 380awhp. Though 300-350 is much more reasonable to ask of it.

 

[sd_ff22]

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the T-28. It's abolutely identical to the T-25, bolts on easily, but increases the potential amazingly. From the times lists (www.dsmtimes.org and tuners), a lot of them look like they're in the low 13's to mid 12 second range.

When you're starting to modify your car, look into the upgrade path. Free mods, stage 1 and 2 should give you a good starting point. http://www.dsmtuners.com/sub.php?page=2gtupgrades.

As has been brought up 11ty billion times, yes the t28 is good. yes it looks stock. no it is not cheap.
the 14B will net you very good results and could be found anywhere from free to $150.
do not under estimate the 14B.
the power to dollar ratio is very good with them.
and I'm not even going to give a "HP rateing" because it all depends on what mods you have done.
follow the upgrade path and you will be golden.
you're in san marcos? Hey, Im in oceanside!

 

[hopwoodp]

As far is the EvoIII 16g turbo goes, it is not c.a.rb. legal but, not too many people can tell the difference. I did however take it to a shop in mira mesa (san diego) and was called on it. I ended up going to a smog ref and they did not say anything about the turbo.

The EvoIII turbo is an outstanding turbo with a lot of potential and like road race engineering says, it is what 99% of most dsm's need.

One important thing to remember is that when you start upgrading, try not to stick out. Law enforcement and smog guys will easily pick up on this. The best thing to do is to keep it simple and follow the proper upgrade path/s.

 

[DSMopar]

i'm really impressed with this board so far, lots of good information, with quick responses .

well I looked at it yesterday... bad news is it's on the POS side. All he mentioned was it ran rough and he suspected a wiring issue, but I found out the rest of the car isn't too good either. It has some earl sheib paint job which is flaking in the rear, painted over emblems etc . Body is more or less straight with a small dent on the drivers fender next to the headlight. Interior is kinda meh, rip in drivers side seat, smudgey upholstery, missing passenger side kickpanel . Sunroof works nice. Windshield is cracked.

Both windows are loose in the doors, clunk loudly when closing . Regulators work, switches are funked tho. It also has some MISC head-scratching issues, like if you turn the headlights on (or maybe it's the ignition) they stay on until you unplug the headlight relay, but stay off once uplugged WTF.

As far as the drivetrain:

-motor seems tight, showed 160 on compression check on all cylinders, dead cold with only 1 plug out and not holding down throttle.

-I jacked it up, crawled under it with a big screwdriver and pryed on the crank pulley best I could and I couldn't detect any movement so it may not be a crank walker.

- turbo is (can you cuss on this site? ) FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF####ED, don't think I can emphasize that word enough. I pulled the intake tube and checked the shaft some radial play... and a CRAP TON of axial... like I dunno .150 to .200 play . Also leaks oil out housing and burns it in exhaust...

- wiring is kinda hacked up but seems to be connected right?

- there's a sensor on the back of the head that appears to be a cam position sensor that is unplugged and the plug is no where to be found, the guy said he was told there's a sensor in front of the motor and that the rear one wasn't used

- tranny scratches a little going into 3rd

We took it on a short jaunt around his neighborhood. The car idles real rough, won't idle when cold at all but once warms up just sort of misses a little. As soon as you tap the throttle though it acts normal... Pulls OK in first but other gears were pretty and surgey. It definitely has some kind of problem with the fuel or something. I've never been in a AWD DSM but the driveline seemed pretty loud, he said it was a front wheel bearing which I could hear but there seemed to be more noise than that....

Overall he was asking alot of money for it and was pretty firm on the price....

The good news is he might trade me for a crashed Mustang I have .



So seeing how the turbo is trash I guess i'll be making an upgrade.

Can you guys rate the turbos you've listed first by performance and then by price. I want to stay smog legal, if the average smog shop doesn't notice it then that's fine I guess. What other parts are CARB legal? Such as air cleaner assembly, intake piping, O2 housing etc?

 

[DSMopar]

you're in san marcos? Hey, Im in oceanside!

Hey! cool you're close enough to give me your turbo

 

[keslerkaiyu]

ok say I did a turbo swap, are any of them CARB legal for this car?

I have a 16g in mine and it just passed an inspection only test.

 

[Defiant]

The stock turbo on a 2G is a T25. They suck for performance.

They suck for performance driving. For street driving, in real-world situations, their small size and rapid spool-up are better for most use.

 

[99gst_racer]

They suck for performance driving. For street driving, in real-world situations, their small size and rapid spool-up are better for most use.

Right, like I said, it sucks for performance. I never said it was a bad turbo. I just want the OP to know that it will not deliver to his power and performance expectations. For any commuter, the T25 is fine. The again, most commuters don't have forced induction.

 

[paul s]

On my wifes 98 AWD I got 13.8/99.5mph on t-25 at 17psi rewired stock pump, mods are: ported turbo/manifold, greddy I/C pipes and BOV, PrefecB and P/S,alt pullies, act 2100, that was on 94 octane fuel and dsmlink, here is the log

http://www.dsmlink.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10802&d=1179093340

 

[sd_ff22]

Hey! cool you're close enough to give me your turbo

when its time for me to bigger ok.
um I think you failed to mention how much the guy wants for that pile...
I dont know what it is that you are paying for it but there are tons of DSMs available for a decent price in MUCH better condition.
have you ever heard of "craigslist"?

Oh and why does your profile say you already have a 95 tsi AWD???

 

[DSMopar]

because thats the car I intended to ask questions about .

I'm paying... a wrecked mustang for the car... so not much

Yes I heard of craigslist, I found this very car on it. I ALMOST had a 91 talon with 105k in NICE shape that needed the trans put back together, he wanted 1k. Was all set up to look at it and some guy bought it out from under me

 

[wret]

They suck for performance driving. For street driving, in real-world situations, their small size and rapid spool-up are better for most use.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks so. The T25 is a great turbo. I did a lot with mine and had great fun with it. I didn't fully appreciate it until I "upgraded", thinking I would bring the fun to a whole new level. For the responsible purely-street driver, upgrading is pointless. You give up super-fast spool for better top end that you'll not often use.

 

[DSMopar]

so can anyone tell me what the cam sensor on the passenger side of the head is used for?

 

[4BangR-x]

so can anyone tell me what the cam sensor on the passenger side of the head is used for?

That would be the famed CAM angle SENSOR you poor misguided bastard