Built Motor: 264/272, 272/272, or stock cams on E316G

[Artago]

Hi all, I'm getting a motor built top to bottom in anticipation of other mods and I need some help. So let me tell you what I want to do and then I have a few questions.

First of I'm getting a fully built 7-bolt at 8.5:1 comp (I know, but I don't want a 6-bolt). Short block and head will be fully built.
Then I'm putting in a Evo 3 16G setup with ALL the supporting fuel, ignition and engine management mods. My goal is 350-400 WHP. My car will be my daily driver but it will see the track from time to time.

So here are my questions. In my upcoming build should I fork out an extra $500 bucks and get Crower (only crower) cams or should I stick with stock cams? And if I go with upgraded cams should I go with 264/272 or 272/272? Keeping in mind this is my daily driver and I want a smooth idle. However this would imply the 264/272's because they idle smoothly. However, is the performance gain from the 264/272's worth the $500? Or should I just stick with stock cams for now and upgrade later?

Thanks, Tom.

[fallenauthority]

Depending upon which cam company you go with the 272/272 may idle kinda lumpy but it wont really affect much. I am running Comp101200's which are the equivalent to a 272/272 combo and my idle is very smooth, although you occasionally hear a lump here or there. Driveability is GREAT, no ill effects, I wish I wouldve put them in sooner. It was a massive improvement in top end power, holds boost up in the RPMs as well as give a good bit more airflow as well. If I could somehow pry you off of Crower, I would STRONGLY advise you to pick up some Comp101200's. If not, still go with the Crower 272/272s, you wont look back, I promise.

[Artago]

Sweet, thanks for the advice. However, why comp over crower?
Also, do I need to get cam gears right away or can I put those off for 6 months or so?
Thanks, Tom.

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by Artago

Hi all, I'm getting a motor built top to bottom in anticipation of other mods and I need some help. So let me tell you what I want to do and then I have a few questions.

First of I'm getting a fully built 7-bolt at 8.5:1 comp (I know, but I don't want a 6-bolt). Short block and head will be fully built.
Then I'm putting in a Evo 3 16G setup with ALL the supporting fuel, ignition and engine management mods. My goal is 350-400 WHP. My car will be my daily driver but it will see the track from time to time.

So here are my questions. In my upcoming build should I fork out an extra $500 bucks and get Crower (only crower) cams or should I stick with stock cams? And if I go with upgraded cams should I go with 264/272 or 272/272? Keeping in mind this is my daily driver and I want a smooth idle. However this would imply the 264/272's because they idle smoothly. However, is the performance gain from the 264/272's worth the $500? Or should I just stick with stock cams for now and upgrade later?

Thanks, Tom.

First, why are you stuck on Crower? My FP2Xs (comp) are excellent and very "streetable"!

Stock cams have yielded the results you are after w/ an evo3 16G. The most fun my car had been (on the street) was with an 18G and stock cams. I loved it!

I know of several guys who've noted no difference in 1/4 mile et running a combination of cams or both 264s or both 272s (all my references here are w/ HKS cams).

[Artago]

Ok, sold. I'll get Comp 101200's. Now what about Cam gears? Do I need those right away or can I put them in later, say 6 months or so? Reason I'm asking is cause I only have so much $$$ right now.

Thanks, Tom.

[Artago]

Also which Rod and Main bearings should i go with? KING, FM, CLEVITE, or ACL? Thanks, Tom.

[fallenauthority]

Id go with either ACL or CLEVITE bearings. You dont even NEED cam gears with the Comps or most other cam companies. But I bought mine just so i have them later if i ever wanted to get them degreed out, also the appearance factor doesnt hurt either.

[kraka]

What about FP2's instead of Comp1012's...Ive never really figured how they are different tho lol

[fallenauthority]

For all intents and purposes they are the same. You wont notice a performance difference between the two.

[Artago]

Alright. Thanks for the help boys, I'll upload pics when I get the engine you guys helped me build. Thanks again, Tom.

[crazy_skier]

I would go with fp2x's and the fp springs. It will be a little larger cost up front but the power on top is crazy and then you have even more room to go. If you can afford to I would reccomend going with a 50 trim since I hit full boost around 3500 with my old 2.0 (now 2.4 and even quicker) thats my 2cents. Also I like clevite bearings but they are all pretty simialer.

The reasoning for me saying 50 trim is you can hit the 350-400 out of a e316g but it is being maxed out, or damn near. Wouldnt you rather have a little bit of room to grow at least? oh and strokers are fun 2

[Talesin]

Seconded... give the stroker some thought. I had my six-bolt rebuilt as a 2L again with all the internal goodies, and paid out before I had it pointed out how much the extra torque from the 2.3L stroke would benefit the AWD drivetrain. Slightly lower redline, sure, but if you're putting out more usable power under the curve, the car will do a lot better as a DD, and not really suffer if you feel like being a drag queen now and then. Not to mention the better response if autocrossing. Quicker spool, more flow, less stress on the engine so more reliability to top it off.

There's a lot of things I would change if I could go back to before I had my engine rebuilt. :b

[99GSX nooby]

i was told that hks 272/272's were pretty kickass.

[Artago]

Thanks for the advice all. This is my first build and I don't know what's what.
Tom.

[nightspeed87]

Originally Posted by Talesin

Seconded... give the stroker some thought. I had my six-bolt rebuilt as a 2L again with all the internal goodies, and paid out before I had it pointed out how much the extra torque from the 2.3L stroke would benefit the AWD drivetrain. Slightly lower redline, sure, but if you're putting out more usable power under the curve, the car will do a lot better as a DD, and not really suffer if you feel like being a drag queen now and then. Not to mention the better response if autocrossing. Quicker spool, more flow, less stress on the engine so more reliability to top it off.

There's a lot of things I would change if I could go back to before I had my engine rebuilt. :b

Agreed, this is why i am going stroker whenever this engine gets built. ( I wouldnt go stroker on a fwd though would be pointless. )

Also a properly machined and built stroker is still safe to 8k. Anything after that is where the side loading occurs from the not so efficient angle and rod ratio of the 2.3s stroke.
I will be building a .40overbore 2.3 liter revving out to 8k max and dont see any issues w/ that. Ive ridden in plenty of 2liters and some stroker 4g63s, and for a street car and autocross car w/ at least a 50trim sized turbo this would be a bad ass set up that will be more fun than a 2.0 motor w/ the same bolt on set up would be anyday...

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

First, why are you stuck on Crower? My FP2Xs (comp) are excellent and very "streetable"!

Stock cams have yielded the results you are after w/ an evo3 16G. The most fun my car had been (on the street) was with an 18G and stock cams. I loved it!

Im sure the reason being that DSM-onster said this is because stock cams hit sooner but taper off up top, therefore the stock cams will make the car "SEEM" like its hitting harder and has more torque, but in reality thats only due to the shorter powerband of the stock cams.
Upgrading your camshafts drastically improve air flow up top and smoothens out the power band with the lack of a torque spike ( i.e. big turbo vs small turbo feel )...
Right now with a well modded evo3 set up at 19psi and stock cams my awd 1g pulls hard as shit, were as my friends old gsx w/ virtually the same set up but w/ the addition of fp2's ( Which are the cams I will get ) His car doesnt seem like it pulls no were near as hard as mines but yet his was definitly faster....

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by nightspeed87

Im sure the reason being that DSM-onster said this is because stock cams hit sooner but taper off up top, therefore the stock cams will make the car "SEEM" like its hitting harder and has more torque, but in reality thats only due to the shorter powerband of the stock cams.
Upgrading your camshafts drastically improve air flow up top and smoothens out the power band with the lack of a torque spike ( i.e. big turbo vs small turbo feel )...
Right now with a well modded evo3 set up at 19psi and stock cams my awd laser pulls hard as shit, were as my friends old gsx w/ virtually the same set up but w/ the addition of fp2's ( Which are the cams I will get ) His car doesnt seem like it pulls no were near as hard as mines but yet his was definitly faster....

That's exactly what I'm saying. For the street, it was great. But when I really needed it , my FP2Xs are leaps and bounds better. Considering an evo3 16G, why upgrade cams if the stockers will match the potential?

[Artago]

Well I've decided to go with upgraded 272/272 cams. Are you all saying that I shouldn't? Thanks, Tom.

[nightspeed87]

If your staying on a 16g id get the Fp1s, or get the 264,272 combo.
I think that will provide the best results.
But if your like me, and your sure your going to upgrade the turbo in the future and
make a more high end set up, then id definitly gone and get some fp2 (comp) or better.
I think the fp2x are better than straight 272s. More top end, and a way nicer power band
with a much more streetable idle.

[Artago]

Thanks, I'll consider it. Tom.

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by nightspeed87

But if your like me, and your sure your going to upgrade the turbo in the future and make a more high end set up, then id definitly gone and get some fp2 (comp) or better. I think the fp2x are better than straight 272s. More top end, and a way nicer power band with a much more streetable idle.

Amen Ah! the advantages of an accelerated ramp rate. . .

[Go4Long]

Originally Posted by nightspeed87

If your staying on a 16g id get the Fp1s, or get the 264,272 combo.
I think that will provide the best results.
But if your like me, and your sure your going to upgrade the turbo in the future and
make a more high end set up, then id definitly gone and get some fp2 (comp) or better.
I think the fp2x are better than straight 272s. More top end, and a way nicer power band
with a much more streetable idle.

I don't know why people complain about the idle so much...I run comp cams 101400 s on my 2.3 and it's died on me like...once. and that's just with an SAFC and E-prom chip...the only thing that might piss some people off is that it will shake more at idle than normal, I mean granted you're not gonna get many hondas trying to rev their engine at you with that kind of idle, but if you've got a 2.3 and a big turbo why would you waste the gas anyway?

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by Go4Long

I don't know why people complain about the idle so much...I run comp cams 101400 s on my 2.3 and it's died on me like...once. and that's just with an SAFC and E-prom chip...the only thing that might piss some people off is that it will shake more at idle than normal, I mean granted you're not gonna get many hondas trying to rev their engine at you with that kind of idle, but if you've got a 2.3 and a big turbo why would you waste the gas anyway?

Strokers can handle the higher duration and idle fine.

[crazy_skier]

I would highly reccomend the fp2x's, they are 272's with a more agressive ramp rate which makes a broader powerband. Also, if you can afford it I would highly suggest stroker like everyone else. It made a night and day difference in my car even when accelerating below boost. Oh and I have the same gas mileage, actually better around town since it doesnt take as much to get going.

[nightspeed87]

Originally Posted by crazy_skier

I would highly reccomend the fp2x's, they are 272's with a more agressive ramp rate which makes a broader powerband. Also, if you can afford it I would highly suggest stroker like everyone else. It made a night and day difference in my car even when accelerating below boost. Oh and I have the same gas mileage, actually better around town since it doesnt take as much to get going.

Yea the stroker dsms ive been in seemed more motivated to get moving if you know what I mean. And how high are you revving yours ( 2.4 huh.)And thats interesting what you said about the gas milage part. I wouldve thought youd burn more gas on the stroker since your putting like 20 percent more combustion every stroke. Anyways Out of curiousity did you dyno your car before and after the stroker? If so hit me up w/ the 411 on it in my pm ( not to jack a thread ) Because
Id like to know the on paper difference in the power band w/ a 50 trim which is the size turbo I am going to run. Figure id talk to all the stroker guys ever chance I get before I build mines.

[yukondoit]

Figured I'd jump in on this thread since its the same as my setup and I'm looking to upgrade. The only difference is Im auto fwd drive so i dont want to loose to much bottom end as i have the stock torque converter. Currently Im looking into a 264/272 combo but is worth the money when 272s can be had for much cheaper?

[dsm-onster]

I'd get a cam profile, designed w/ the stroker in mind. I love my FP2Xs for this reason. They have the EXACT same ramp rate, same duration as fp3s. Fp3s are designed w/ the stroker in mind. The ONLY difference is there's 3-4 degrees of cam retard (cam lobe centerline) on the fp3s out of the box. The fp2x cams have VERY slightly more lift. A single adjustable exhaust cam gear can get a set of fp2xs to do what fp3s do for a stroker. You can get the cams for a 2.0 now and when you later decide to upgrade the stroke, Boom! you have a good set of stroker cams right in the head. Just need a bit of exhaust retard. Have your cake and eat it too. Get the cams NOW and runit w/ what you have; then save for your stroker and you're cams are already there.

I've been running Manley singles and STOCK retainers w/ my fp2xs for years now w/ no issue and an 8500 rpm redline. It's never suggested to take a stroker to such a rev limit, so I don't see why cheaper manley singles wouldn't be just fine for the fp2Xs or fp3s. In fact, I called Manley and talked to a "senior tech" guy. He assured me that their advertised seat and lift pressures are very conservative. And, that they can handle the profile I emailed him (which was a link to the fp website). He suggest a 0.010" shim if you're "scared" since they can take on well beyond the peak lift of any cam profile mass produced for the 4g63. Any local machine shop can do this for all your springs for 20-40 bones.

[kraka]

Just wanna add that I run the FP1 intake/ FP2 exhaust cam on my PTE 50trim setup

Its comparable to the 264/272 proven combo, except the FP1 has more midrange than the 264 and the FP2 exhaust has more top end than a 272

If you do in fact go straight 272/272 however than get some Brian Crower units, you will save $300 over the HKS

[nightspeed87]

Originally Posted by dsm-onster

I'd get a cam profile, designed w/ the stroker in mind. I love my FP2Xs for this reason. They have the EXACT same ramp rate, same duration as fp3s. Fp3s are designed w/ the stroker in mind. The ONLY difference is there's 3-4 degrees of cam retard (cam lobe centerline) on the fp3s out of the box. The fp2x cams have VERY slightly more lift. A single adjustable exhaust cam gear can get a set of fp2xs to do what fp3s do for a stroker. You can get the cams for a 2.0 now and when you later decide to upgrade the stroke, Boom! you have a good set of stroker cams right in the head. Just need a bit of exhaust retard. Have your cake and eat it too. Get the cams NOW and runit w/ what you have; then save for your stroker and you're cams are already there.

I've been running Manley singles and STOCK retainers w/ my fp2xs for years now w/ no issue and an 8500 rpm redline. It's never suggested to take a stroker to such a rev limit, so I don't see why cheaper manley singles wouldn't be just fine for the fp2Xs or fp3s. In fact, I called Manley and talked to a "senior tech" guy. He assured me that their advertised seat and lift pressures are very conservative. And, that they can handle the profile I emailed him (which was a link to the fp website). He suggest a 0.010" shim if you're "scared" since they can take on well beyond the peak lift of any cam profile mass produced for the 4g63. Any local machine shop can do this for all your springs for 20-40 bones.

Hm.. This def is good to know.

[dsm-onster]

I played w/ Paint a while back. I wanted to really know for sure why the Manley's are holding up to the fp2Xs. Here's an overlay of the fp2 profiles onto the profile graph of the fp2Xs. If FP says that fresh stock springs are fine for the fp2s, then why the neccesary jump to SO much more spring rate. There's not that much difference in ramp rate or peak lift. It is like like about 2% more peak lift and a 5% more ramp rate from my math and plotting those graphs. If the stocker springs are fine w/ the fp2s, even if they're on the very edge of what they can handle, a spring that can handle 10% more would likely be fine. And most singles surely can do that.

[deletrius]

I have FP2s in my car and love them. They don't idle too rough, just enough to make the car sound awesome and they add so much to the mid-top end.