Timing...Off by one tooth..What to do?

[alice]

So I have had about 10in/hg vacuum, about 10MPG and really rough idle/low power since I bought the car. I did a boost leak test at both the turbo and the TB, checked out good. I also did a compression test and had 180's across the board so thats good. So, today I decided to check timing and the cam sprockets never line up at the marks and when the exhaust cam dowel pin is straight up, the intake cam dowel pin points towards the rear of the car, not straight up. Basically, the cam shafts are one tooth out of alignment. In turn, is there anyway to correct this without actually removing the timing belt or should I just follow the tensioning part of the VFAQ? Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Locke]

The only way to correct it is to re-time it. Sucks, huh? First time I did the timing belt on a 4g63 (water pump job) took me 10 hours.

Follow the VFAQ, and if you have any specific questions about the procedure, let us know.

 

[tkelly27]

The last time I tried to do a hack job and not take the tension of the belt, it stretched. Not fun. Be thankful it wasn't so bad that it bent something and get it right

 

[GVR4592]

When you reset the timing make sure both dowels are pointing up and don't over tighten the belt.

 

[AK_4g63t]

I have actually done this about 2 times and each time took about 3 minutes (with the middle and cam cover off already). I do not recommend this unless your ready to maybe ruin a hydrolic tensioner in the process. I also have my balance shafts removed.
method 1: You take a pry bar with some duct tape the end so you dont damage your timing belt. You stick it down between the tensioner pully and the idler pully. The trick is to get the timing belt on the edge of both cams, now get the curved part of the pry bar around the tensior pully and do NOT PRY HARD! prying hard with ruin all types of things. You just simply apply enough pressure to not let the hydrolic tensioner to expand. Have 2 17mm wrenches available and with someone holding the pry bar, quickly pull off the belt, get both cams lined up using your wrenches and put the belt just on the edge of the back cam and then slide it on the front cam. Then just slide it on both cams working it side by side and thats it.

Method 2: If your front cam needs to go twards the back of your car just one tooth you can do the pry bar trick again, hold the rear cam with your wrench and push your front cam twards the rear of your car. If your good, it should just slip 1 tooth over and your done.
I have done this and ruined my hydrolic tensioner and had to remove EVERYTHING and had to install a new one. Since then I have done it twice and everytime it worked. Just make sure to check your timming belt for any damage and ensure that it your tension is at a nice tightness. I'm sure everyone will bash me for this but I have had sucsess! Im in the process of a motor build and will be setting my timming with the motor out. I decided to retire this ghetto trick because it's not professional. Just remember.. he said, " is there ANYWAY"
-Donny

 

[spinz4]

I would say to do it the right way and avoid damaging everything.

 

[speedy13]

^^^ man, thats way too intense for my blood.. I would just do it right. Not that your way won't work Mr AK. It took me 8 hrs the first time I did it. Now I can have it apart in 1 hr and go back together in 3. Her's a way, but it's not for the faint of heart. We've used it before on 3si's and infiny q45's wich are a bi*** to set the timing on. grab a 10mm bolt like the one off your TB cover. place it in the exhaust cam gear in your case. you want to place it with the head of the bolt facing you on the bottom part of the cam gear, where the cam gear meets the belt. Now have a buddy turn the motor over by hand one whole turn. the bolt will travel in between the cam gear and the belt towards the top of the cam gear. At the end of the revolution of the cam gear, grab the bolt before it drops. This will have made the exhaust cam go back a tooth and they should now align. Go back to TDC and check your timing marks again. It's hard to explain and easy to do and show. I hope I explained myself right. If not, just bite the bullet and do it right.

 

[GVR4592]

I hope everybody reading this isn't as stupid as our two friends that like to jam things into places they don't belong, in order to fix something they shouldn't have screwed up in the first place. Follow the instructions in the Mitsubishi service manual.

 

[absolute_DSM]

I hope everybody reading this isn't as stupid as our two friends that like to jam things into places they don't belong, in order to fix something they shouldn't have screwed up in the first place. Follow the instructions in the Mitsubishi service manual.

Holy crap, I was thinking the same thing. I read about 5 words of that post and just skipped it.

Do it right or pay the price.

If someone bought their car to you and expected a good job done, would you do that?

 

[urbanrcr]

its not fun but its better to do it the right way the first time. good luck

 

[AK_4g63t]

Hey absolute DSM and GVR4592 , before you two jump the gun and put me down, read my entire post. He asked "is there any other way" and I gave him the other way. Is it the correct way? No but 2 out of 3 times it worked just as good. If you read the last two sentences in my post you would see that I clearly 1) explained that I will not use this method again due to it being stupid and 2) showed that I was the ONLY person to answer his question.

I hope everybody reading this isn't as stupid as our two friends that like to jam things into places they don't belong, in order to fix something they shouldn't have screwed up in the first place. Follow the instructions in the Mitsubishi service manual.

So your basically putting down everyone who's ever not timed a vehicle correctly? Is this not the noob section, a place to ask noob quesations?...wiseman?
Absolute DSM, you didn't even read my post so how can you even say anything about it? Your reply was nowhere near correctly answering alice's question so what are you even doing talking?
*Note:
This is NOT directly talking bad about you two... just watch yourselves because you just disrespected everyone who's basically a new member and who's asked a question. All I did was answer, something nobody else here did except tkelly27 and me.

 

[spinz4]

You basically shouldnt have even posted that. People that dont know how to fix their car the correct way should either do it over by themselves or take it to a shop or a local guy that is willing to do the work. The best way to learn about these cars is hands on....Not by trying to do things half assed and hoping nothing breaks..

 

[AK_4g63t]

I was only sharing a personal experience and dirrecty answering his question. After doing that I get publically called stupid and put down. The rules of this site clearly state that doing this in NOT allowed and I also felt the need to explain myself. So everyone fallows the correct method of doing something 100 percent? I know there are short-cuts all over this site. I just explained what I did a few times and how it turned out... in a $100 dollar part.

The best way to learn about these cars is hands on...

Exactly. Did I work hands on? Yes. Did I learn something? Yes. I explained my lesson clearly, thus stating that I would no longer use this method again.
-Donny

 

[AK_4g63t]

Also, absolute DSM and GVR4592, I apologize for the direct attack twards you two. I just found it offensive and wanted to further explain myself.
-Donny

 

[Talesin]

Also, if the timing is jumped forward (clockwise) by a tooth, you can insert a small spacer (like a pencil or pen) in one of the gear grooves on the leading side of the offending cam gear (between the gear and the belt) and slowly turn the crank clockwise with a ratchet, giving the tensioner time to compress. The extra size will potentially 'skip' a tooth back on the gear. It has the potential to stretch your timing belt, weaken the tooth over/surrounding the spacer tool, or over-strain your hydraulic tensioner, so it's better just to use the right tool, compress the tensioner properly, and re-set the timing, using a straightedge as a reference to make sure that the cam gear marks line up. This will NOT work if you somehow managed to jump timing backward (counterclockwise) and will only make the problem worse. NEVER rotate the crank counterclockwise to try the trick backward, or you could run into problems with the hydraulic tensioner and idler pulley.

But if you're stuck somewhere on the side of the road with a car that will barely run due to clockwise jumped timing, it's a handy little trick to know. Obviously, do NOT try to do this while the engine is running, or using the starter to turn the crank, even with the MPI relay fusible link pulled.

 

[spinz4]

I was only sharing a personal experience and dirrecty answering his question. After doing that I get publically called stupid and put down. The rules of this site clearly state that doing this in NOT allowed and I also felt the need to explain myself. So everyone fallows the correct method of doing something 100 percent? I know there are short-cuts all over this site. I just explained what I did a few times and how it turned out... in a $100 dollar part.

Exactly. Did I work hands on? Yes. Did I learn something? Yes. I explained my lesson clearly, thus stating that I would no longer use this method again.
-Donny

Well I was not saying you are stupid or trying to flame on you or anything. All I was saying is that if someone asks a question like this they are not even close to being ready to do it that way. It would be better for them to learn to do it the right way. Once again not flaming! Out of all of my 1g's and 2g's I can't recall a car that I would gamble doing something like that.

FWIW if you aren't willing to do it again....It would be a good idea not to steer someone that direction. Hope you don't take it to heart but as just advise......and that counts on any board.

It seems like a HUGE percentage of problems with DSM's is user error and taking shortcuts.

Just don't think I am calling you stupid and spread your knowledge the right way.

 

[speedy13]

I hope everybody reading this isn't as stupid as our two friends that like to jam things into places they don't belong, in order to fix something they shouldn't have screwed up in the first place. Follow the instructions in the Mitsubishi service manual.

. I don't find your post offensive at all. I stated twice it wasn't the right way so it's cool.

Mr.spinz- your right. Shouldn't of posted that in the newb section. I was just trying to help, it was late, don't know what I was thinking.
talesin- true it does have the potential to stretch the belt. Since I've always done this on new belts, and tensioners, It has not been an issue.
I also apologize, do it once, do it right people.

 

[alice]

I am going to do this thing right now and try to get this motor back in time. Thanks For all of the replies and the other ways to do it, all quite helpful and its good to know that there are other ways of doing it. I am going to do it per manual way so I have to make the tensioner tool really quick and get it done. My next questions are how do I figure out which cam is out of time? or do I just line up the marks? Also, if I release the tension the proper way, can I then just line up the cam sprockets as opposed to taking the entire belt off and re-timing everything? Thanks again.

-alice

 

[tkelly27]

The marks line up across a straight edge. If either of them are out, they won't.
http://www.vfaq.com/proj-pics/Tbelt/96-003.gif
http://www.vfaq.com/mods/timingbelt-2G.html

Just like you can change the cam timing without taking tension off, you can do a timing belt without readjusting the other parts. However, if they are off, you're going to have to do it again, so you should align them properly. Apparently the more you do it, the easier it gets, I've only done SOHC belts so far : (

 

[GVR4592]

So your basically putting down everyone who's ever not timed a vehicle correctly?

Basically, yes I am. Anybody that purposely take's shortcuts and causes damage to their vehicle, then recommends others do the same, is stupid.

 

[Eclipse98_RS]

Man i bet that gets the adrenaline flowing...

 

[alice]

So, I am about to finish the job in about an hour. I put the crank to the "T" position on the timing belt cover. This is TDC right because the #1 piston does nothing but go down from there. I read everywhere that "when the timing terminal in grounded," the timing should be 5degrees BTDC +/- 3. Does this just happen after you manually set the crank to the "t" mark ? thanks again

 

[16gpoweredgsx]

Yes, the T on the timing cover is TDC, but once you do that you need to set you cam gears. Make sure the two dowels point 12:00 on both cam gears, and the marks all line up then your good. Just to make sure check your timing with a light. You should be at 5 degrees advanced, if not, adjust your cas accordingly, and your good.

 

[alice]

I guess then my next question is how do you know whether or not the TDC is on the compression stroke if my cam sprockets are not aligned? I read that the exhaust cam should be slightly out of alignment when it is at the compression stroke. Or is TDC on the timing belt cover always at the compression stroke? Thats probably the answer but I just want to make sure. Also, I have a 2g/7 Bolt so does it have an adjustable cam angle sensor (CAS)? Also, the cam gears should be aligned at 12 o'clock with the top of the head right? So since the engine sits slightly forward in the car, the cam gears will actually be at like 11:30? Sorry about all of the questions but I just want to make sure I get everything right. One more, how far should I turn the cam sprockets to make up for the auto-tensioner? Thanks again and again for all of the help! As soon as I get this done, I will post a reply because I have a feeling that the car will actually get more than 10mpg, have much more vacuum, and run/pull much better.

 

[wt71gas]

The dowels need to be at 12:00 with the motor. If not you will know because the cam gears marks won't line up. Make sure you have all the other marks lined up also like the balance shafts. The most helpful thing I have found:

** Make sure you use a straight edge for the cam gear alignment. Run it across the centerline of the cam bolts because they can look they are on but can be off a tooth. It just makes it easier to verify alignment **