Balance of AWD's

[gsxeclipse97]

Ok i searched but i couldn't find anything that showed what i was looking for. My friend bought a 2007 350z and he was telling me that because the car was well balanced that it would out handle my car. he said that his car was 51% in front and 49% in rear with out driver. I couldn't find the weight distrubiton on our car's but from what I remember awd cars will always out handle a rear wheel. so the question is what is the weight balance on the 97+ cars?

 

[Defiant]

AWD DSMs are front-wheel drive cars with rear-wheel drive added-in. They're not only nose-heavy, but the mass is ahead of the front wheels. Not the best set-up for "handling".
However, "handling" is a nebulous, car-magazine term which is difficult to define in absolute terms. Does it refer to turning-in ability? Cornering Gs? Braking force? Acceleration grip? Sidewind resistance? Constant-state turn stability? Multidirectional transition capability?
I've had 510s whose ability to dart around was astounding, yet their absolute grip in a corner wasn't that high: their tire contact patches wouldn't generate that much sideways force, but they were easy to modulate in a slide, and happy to change directions even while doing so. While they weren't lacking in straight-line stability, there were more comfortable cars to take for long, straight highway drives.
Road and Track said the weight distribution on the 95 GSX was 59/41. That won't wander much between years and models. Another handicap of DSMs is their weight.
A stock DSM won't have much chance against a stock 350Z, depending of course on the driver.

However, it's on the edge of bench racing. Don't expect this thread to live.

 

[Talesin]

Uh... I think you have that backward. AWD will outhandle RWD on high speed turns where vehicle stability is key, and more power can be put down on exit. Following a good track line is where an AWD will excel. RWD will outhandle AWD on low speed technical cornering, what most tend to think of as 'outhandling', when vehicle stability and smooth power delivery is of a lower concern than turning radius. The weight balance is important just to get a proper distribution while turning, but the extra load on your front wheels while cornering due to the AWD driveline will reduce their total cornering potential, forcing some of the traction to be used for accelleration.
Short version, your buddy's right. Unless you've done some MAJOR suspension reworking on your GSX, his 350z will easily outhandle you. Our cars are front-heavy, to answer your secondary question. On a GSX, relocating the battery to the trunk and replacing the hood with a carbon fiber part will increase the handling potential quite a bit. Even just moving the battery to the back produces a noticeable response difference, making the car much more nimble, but also more prone to 'float' for some reason.

Oh, and FWD sucks for handling compared to either of the other two.

 

[gsxeclipse97]

yeah i know fwd cars aren't good for it. By float you mean feel a lack of traction? couldn't isn't that the reason you put less air in the rear tires so they grab traction. Also how difficult is it to move the battery to the trunk?. I'm not trying to race him yet he would toast me at the moment the new z has 306 hp plus he has the nismo catback exhasut. 59/41 is pretty steep.. So if i were to get eibach springs and new struts i would be in much better shape for cornering. But how would i go about fixing the super understeer that we have?

 

[dsm-onster]

Oh, and FWD sucks for handling compared to either of the other two.

I'll take you w/ my FWD around a turn any day. It comes down to driver. If you know what a FWD will do, you CAN push it through a turn. Understeer CAN be nulled (not negated) while powering through a curve. Keep in mind that I WANT understeer if I know how to kick out my trailing rear. You just have to know what you are doing.

This applies to the original question. I agree that 'car handling' is a cloudy term at best. It is quite conceivable that this guy is quoting weight distribution and automobile characteristics because he hasn't studied and practiced as much as he should. He's relying on the car to drive him around the bends and over the bumps and dips. A good driver in a car he knows is great in a circuit. If you know your car, you will know where the edge is. You will know how early to steer in at a particular curve. You will know how much throttle to apply at the apex and when to floor it on exit.

With respect to road racing, knowing what to do with weight distribution is much more important than having a particular weight distribution.

 

[TSG59_Steve]

I'll take you w/ my FWD around a turn any day. It comes down to driver. If you know what a FWD will do, you CAN push it through a turn. Understeer CAN be nulled (not negated) while powering through a curve. Keep in mind that I WANT understeer if I know how to kick out my trailing rear. You just have to know what you are doing.

Thank you.

 

[gsxeclipse97]

My friend is a good driver. the car he had before was integra gsr that was built pretty good. He just got the z a month ago because he went through water that was to deep and it sucked water through the exhaust. any how he's a very good driver. We do a lot of driving a this road in austin Va lente if anyone here is familiar with it. it has alot of sharp turns and is very hilly we do alot of driving down that road to test the limits of our cars.

 

[Zmann42087]

I'll take you w/ my FWD around a turn any day. It comes down to driver. If you know what a FWD will do, you CAN push it through a turn. Understeer CAN be nulled (not negated) while powering through a curve. Keep in mind that I WANT understeer if I know how to kick out my trailing rear. You just have to know what you are doing.

Hear, hear!

 

[luvmygst]

say what you want I CAN drive and I have both a fwd and an awd. The awd IS the better platform for handling. I enjoy my fwd alot, but if it comes down to just the ability to take a turn anc put the power down coming out I will bet a fwd everytime in the AWD car.

 

[eldiabloz13]

AWD pwns

 

[Hideki]

just my 2 cents. With the price of a 350Z, you could buy a nice GSX and have enough money for mods to fly by the stock 350Z... That is of course, until your DSM breaks down (just kidding)

 

[Talesin]

It all does come down to the nut behind the wheel. But from a technical standpoint, between two drivers of equal skill, the one in the AWD will toast the one in the FWD. Had a 90 GS-T before I got my GSX, and you can feel the difference pretty easily. The GS-T isn't anywhere near as stable in a high speed corner.. the back end starts to step out at a certain speed, which can be accounted for by the driver (and is fun). However, at the same speed the GSX is still rock solid, allowing it to take the same turn at a higher speed before stability is compromised.

Low-speed cornering it can be a toss-up. You have the lower weight of the GS-T to consider at that point, but the traction of the GSX on the rear wheels lets you blast through the exit, while the GS-T has to work a LOT harder to balance traction between lateral grip and acceleration.

A good driver in a FWD can outmaneuver a moderate or bad driver in an AWD. But if they're both at the same skill/mod level, the AWD will come out on top every time.

 

[dsm-onster]

The GS-T isn't anywhere near as stable in a high speed corner.. the back end starts to step out at a certain speed, which can be accounted for by the driver (and is fun). However, at the same speed the GSX is still rock solid, allowing it to take the same turn at a higher speed before stability is compromised.

This nature of kicking out is an asset. And you then gas it to keep in the turn w/out spinning out. There are steering techniques that you'll have to simply develop a feeling for to understand. Using the rear to swing the chassis also turns in the front axles and gassing will not result in understeer since the wheels are directed to the next angle presented by the curve. As long as the rear is kicked out and controled, the rear turns the car and front wheels and the gas pedal accelerates the vehicle through the turn. You're right it takes a nut to drive a car beyond where it FEELS like it's out of control then remain level headed enough to use the "rear kickout". Remember I said that I know how to kick out my trailing rear properly and look to do that. If you havn't kicked out your FWD car in the rear and found a way to maintain control or if you've never kicked out your rear at all, then you've never pushed a FWD to it's potential. I perfectly understand why one wouldn't. I nearly puked the first time I rode in a FWD car where the driver could do this. And only practice will make it work. What FEELS good can fool you. I've had a few girlfriends like that .

Low-speed cornering it can be a toss-up. You have the lower weight of the GS-T to consider at that point, but the traction of the GSX on the rear wheels lets you blast through the exit, while the GS-T has to work a LOT harder to balance traction between lateral grip and acceleration.

Of course an AWD has has torqe applied to the rear wheels. What happens to a RWD car when this happens. If a good driver is behind the wheel then a beautiful drift. HOWEVER, having AWD means that the FRONT tires are also experiencing torque thus controling the run w/ the accelerator pedal would mean that turning the steering wheel in the opposite direction of a RWD drift would be propper for the FRONT wheels to work at pulling the car through the corner. Yet, turing the steering the other way would be proper for the REAR to push the car through the corner. How do you steer the front wheels in both directions?

A good driver in a FWD can outmaneuver a moderate or bad driver in an AWD. But if they're both at the same skill/mod level, the AWD will come out on top every time.

A good FWD driver can enjoy the advantage of loosing traction w/ the rear tires and greatly enhance his/her ability to turn sharper and sharper. A good AWD driver is stuck once any set of tires break loose at all. Correcting and controling skid of either sets of wheels is the opposite of what needs to be done for the other end of the car to maneuver properly.

Again you are absolutely correct in that the average driver will GREATLY appreciate the feeling an AWD will give him or her and will take the turn at a higher speed and sense better "handling". Drive a FWD 'properly' and you'll get in trouble w/ the police eventually. From experience, w/ a lawyer you CAN prove you have control of the vehicle; but you cannot dodge a "general recklessness" charge. Sticking to a open circuit course would allow one to play w/ a fwd platform w/ "little" consequence, so as to learn what it takes to control a FWD drift.

 

[dsm-onster]

say what you want I CAN drive and I have both a fwd and an awd. The awd IS the better platform for handling. I enjoy my fwd alot, but if it comes down to just the ability to take a turn anc put the power down coming out I will bet a fwd everytime in the AWD car.

'Putting the power down coming out' is only half the turn. I can come into the turn faster than a AWD expecting to kick out. When an AWD kicks out, gassing will push the rear to the outside wall unless you countersteer as should be done for any RWD drift. What does countersteering and gassing do to front wheels experiencing torque? When the FWD kicks out the rear in the turn does not mean that it has lost the turn. After kick out, if the turn is lost, the driver simply didn't apply the specific tecniques it takes to meneuver the car throught the turn. It's hard to learn. Where else can you learn this but a race track?

From my experience and from what I've seen first hand, where a good driver of both platforms is available, a FWD can come into the turn harder and an AWD can exit harder (where both plan and know how to control the drift). The better driver gets to the end of the arc quicker and still under control.

The act of applying torque to a wheel reduces ability of the tire to maintain traction. An AWD has four of those. Once an AWD kicks out, what makes it different from a FWD? An AWD accelerting hard while turning WILL want to scoot out its rear. There's torque on the rear wheels and centrifugal force acting on the body. A FWD has only the latter acting on the rear.

EDIT: Again I am definately not negating your ability to drive. I have to believe that 99.9% of the FWD guys around here have not pushed their car like this. NOR would I expect such. It is a delicate maneuver and dangerous at a minimum. In fact I have much respect for someone of whom would rather drive a car that they don't have to kick out to speed through a turn for decent results. Especially if one wants a street machine.

 

[luvmygst]

'Putting the power down coming out' is only half the turn. I can come into the turn faster than a AWD expecting to kick out. When an AWD kicks out, gassing will push the rear to the outside wall unless you countersteer as should be done for any RWD drift. What does countersteering and gassing do to front wheels experiencing torque? When the FWD kicks out the rear in the turn does not mean that it has lost the turn. After kick out, if the turn is lost, the driver simply didn't apply the specific tecniques it takes to meneuver the car throught the turn. It's hard to learn. Where else can you learn this but a race track?

From my experience and from what I've seen first hand, where a good driver of both platforms is available, a FWD can come into the turn harder and an AWD can exit harder (where both plan and know how to control the drift). The better driver gets to the end of the arc quicker and still under control.

The act of applying torque to a wheel reduces ability of the tire to maintain traction. An AWD has four of those. Once an AWD kicks out, what makes it different from a FWD? An AWD accelerting hard while turning WILL want to scoot out its rear. There's torque on the rear wheels and centrifugal force acting on the body. A FWD has only the latter acting on the rear.

EDIT: Again I am definately not negating your ability to drive. I have to believe that 99.9% of the FWD guys around here have not pushed their car like this. NOR would I expect such. It is a delicate maneuver and dangerous at a minimum. In fact I have much respect for someone of whom would rather drive a car that they don't have to kick out to speed through a turn for decent results. Especially if one wants a street machine.

You must have never been in a AWD when its being pushed to its limits. You cant beat an AWD powerslide. Just because all wheels are driven doesnt mean you cant kick the back out but you have the option to slide all 4 and still have control, and hit the apex of the turn. This debate can go on forever. Just my .02 the awd is the better platform for handling.

p.s. I bet I could out run a gst on a gravel road (j/k I would never condone breaking any laws.)

 

[eldiabloz13]

A good FWD driver can enjoy the advantage of loosing traction w/ the rear tires and greatly enhance his/her ability to turn sharper and sharper. A good AWD driver is stuck once any set of tires break loose at all. Correcting and controling skid of either sets of wheels is the opposite of what needs to be done for the other end of the car to maneuver properly.

My friends can AWD drift. Not always on bare pavement, but sure enough in rain and such. So AWD is not "stuck". They can do things in a AWD car you never even would think of for fear of breaking stuff. Like balence his evo on 2 wheels, drift on dry pavement(sometimes), awd donuts into drifting. Once a AWD breaks loose it dosent mean its stuck.

Thats like telling me you take a 4x4 truck into a beach parkinglot and once he drift's and burn out and do donuts he is going to wreck. Cause to me anything with power to more then 2 wheels has a good chance of control. A lot better then anything with only 2 wheels getting power.

For example. I took my GS out to this island near me. All dirt roads and so on. My brother had his jeep and his friend had his dodge truck. Sure i could kick the back end out but so could they. Then once they put it in 4wheel drive. They do could the same and then some. They would kick it out and then stomp the gas and power through corners. So if anything AWD can get control back easier then my fwd. AWD wouldent be so popular if it was that dangerious to regain control once you lose it.

 

[gsxeclipse97]

I would have to agree with you on there I have done that on my car but the tq needed is pretty high on just a regular basis.. The last time i did it I was going 40 and tooka a 90 degree turn. The back slid out and i could feel the car trying to straghten itself out but it was a weird its not like the rear wheel drives at all.

 

[eldiabloz13]

it was easier for the jeep and truck cause the straight 6 has a shit load of TQ and the V8 just had the power. So thats why its different for us because were cars and 4 cylinders.

 

[gsxeclipse97]

well i guess it could be the same if you shift far enough down to slide the back out

 

[eldiabloz13]

ohh yeh well i was figureing you just keep the same gear and dont shift till your out of the bend. You had it right the first time sorry. I didnt process the tq part you mentioned.

 

[Talesin]

Monster, read above. I had a GS-T and did let the back end kick out. It was unstable and could be accounted for, but was NOWHERE NEAR as fast as my GSX. It was more fun, yes. But not as fast. Same thing with my Mirage.. the back end on that thing would slip out if you sneezed at it. I drove that thing for 7 years, so I understand how to drive a FWD inside and out. It's still slower than an AWD.

I understand what you're saying. You can pull the car's steering angle sharper by kicking out the back. But as soon as you start applying power, the additional load on all the tires is going to make the fronts slip. Look at professional racers. Watch how many come to a near complete stop by kicking the back end out enough to make an appreciable steering angle difference. Sure, you can powerslide and it will help. But it doesn't overcome the fact that you still only have two traction patches actually doing any good.
Following a good grip line on asphalt will be faster than any drift or powerslide through the same turn. It looks more sedate, but your overall time will be shorter, and your entry/exit speeds will be higher.

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

I got a nice CF hood and my battery is in the back...but having the ssac kit hanging on out there on the nose does not help at all. Suspension set up is in profile.

 

[Defiant]

Any modification invalidates the original question. Including changing from factory-installed tires, not just tire sizes.

 

[gsxeclipse97]

But if there is a way to better blance these cars shouldn't we take advantage of it. I don't feel very safe having the battery in the back. Does it just sit there with nothing to keep it from bouning around. Ive got a ten in the back and i noticed that i could feel the rear wheels pushing more. When i first got it the car felt like a front wheel drive car for the most part except on turns going at higher speeds but other than that I didn't even notice the rear wheel as much as i do now. The car feels much more solid on the road.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

^^
You most definitely would create some kind of battery hold down system.