BAD engine noise. METAL found in engine. ADVICE PLEASE

[skwints]

Ok. I am new to this forum. I just bought a 1992 Eagle Talon TSI AWD. My dad drove the car back from Colorado to Southern Cal. The car is modified with an 18 G turbo, fmic, exhaust manifold, and a few other bolt ons along with proper fuel supply to run 22 PSI. The internals of the engine are stock. The car was running great for a week until one night when I heard a slight ticking. I knew that DSM's are prone to lifter tick, so I drove the car 10 min to get home. I woke up the next morning, got in, jumped on the freeway and the ticking quickly turned into a much louder ticking(yet more than a tick... it was more along the lines of a knocking but not knocking). The stock boost gauge which was turned into a knock gauge was pinned at 14 when I would give it any gas at all. I pulled over and got towed home. I pulled the head to see if the valves were bent or any visible signs of something bad in/on the head and on the upper end of the block. The pistons look good, the valves look good. I drained the oil, but forgot to look for metal shavings. I ordered some new lifters and I just got them today. When replacing the lifters, some of them were terribly hard to slide out of place. Some were easy but the 8 in particular that were hard to come out were on the intake manifold side. After removing these, I found an excessive amount of highly visable and extremely large flakes and chunks of metal that were on the lifter in the grove where the oil comes from. I am going to drop the oil pan sometime tomorrow night or friday. I need to find out what the problem is, and it is upsetting that there was sooo much metal. Here are some pictures of the metal flakes. You can see how much there is. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas as to what the problem is, or what would produce these metal flakes?

 

[Spooling99]

Ouch... I would definatley look around the head to see if anything else may be rubbing. Also let us know what happens when you check your oil pan hopefully nothing went fully through the system. Good luck

 

[skwints]

I took a look around the head. Everything looked fine. The thing that struck me as odd was that I didnt find any metal anywhere else in the head. Just hidden on the outside of the lifters when I took them out. Good thing I did, becuase I never would have seen all that metal. Does anyone know where metal flakes like that can come from. Bearings? Other moving parts?

 

[skwints]

Anyone have any suggestions on how to "flush" the system to get all metal flakes out of the head, turbo, block and any other oil passages before I start installing new parts (ex. lifters, oil pump)?

 

[95talon_in_ma]

Not exactly sure how they would get there??? If from below, the oil pump should not be throwing metal up top.

Are the shavings aluminum or metal? (use a magnet)

Might help narrow it down anyway... If aluminum you know it's something in the head..

 

[travislaw]

I had metal shavings shooting through my engine from shooting a bearing. You will find that out when you drop the pan.

 

[somdturbo]

I would pull the cams and check the bearing surfaces, I would also do the same with the crankshaft. The most secure way of cleaning the engine is to pull it completely apart and clean part by part to ensure no extra metal is left behind.

Possible causes:

-Installation of cams by previous owner with no lubrication on camshafts
-Main or Rod bearings
-Oil pump issues/seizure

Get that pan off and check it all out

 

[skwints]

Thanks guys. As soon as I have the pan off and I check it out further, I'll let you know whats up.

 

[skwints]

Ok. So i took a magnet to the metal flakes. Nothing. Did not stick, attract or was affected in any way. That would mean that they are aluminum correct? Is there aluminum or other non magnetic metals in bearings or anything else?

 

[brute]

The head is aluminum.

 

[somdturbo]

I would start by checking the cam journals since its Aluminum. Engine will still have to be cleaned to all extent to ensure proper cleansing of metal.

 

[drewvr4]

man i know thats hearbreaking...like everyone said take a really good look threw your head. Metal obviously doesnt just appear from somewhere.

 

[skwints]

I went ahead and took off the camshaft journals today. I didnt see any signs of damage or where the metal could have come from. I need to buy a valve spring compressor. Does anyone know where to get one that will work on my head. I read some posts about people having to modify their compressors, unfortunately I dont have access to a welder so customizing one would be difficult. I already got the drive shaft and transfer case out of the way of the oil pan. I had to get to work so I wasnt able to pull the oil pan off. Ill have it off tomorrow night. Could this metal be comeing from a bearing or something from the block?

 

[Splitpi]

if its aluminum its... from the head. I would look carefully in and around the lifter for abnormal wair.

 

[somdturbo]

if its aluminum its... from the head. I would look carefully in and around the lifter for abnormal wair.

Agreed. But make sure its only aluminum. If not then it could be coming from several places. Inspect the head and have a machine shop check it out if you cant find anything.

 

[skwints]

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where to get a valve spring compressor that will work without any modifications?

 

[95talon_in_ma]

Spending money sucks, but nothing like sleeping good at night knowing the local machine shop will make things all right. If you don't find any blatant areas of abuse, I'd take it to them to do a quick check and maybe a valve job while your at it.
You'll sleep better and feel better every time you take it for a ride. Otherwise it will sit there and fester in the back of your mind...
You don't have the tools to see if those lifter holes are out of round. They do..(Should)

Just curious, did you check for any helicoils in the head? Maybe someone stripped the something and they never cleaned the shavings when they put a coil in?

Good luck!

 

[skwints]

I didnt see any signs of previous stripped threads anywhere. I dont mind investing money in this car. I know it will be beneficial in the long run. I have 1400 dollars worth of parts on the way for prevenative maintenence that I am in the process of doing. I'll have peace of mind knowing that everything is up to par since I dont know the exact maintenece that was done to the car before me. Does anyone have any ideas as to what the noise was that I heard that I described on the first post? Also, anyone know where to get a valve spring compressor that will work out of the box on my head?

 

[skwints]

UPDATE: I got a better more powerful magnet than I used before. It turns out the metal flakes are magnetic. Will a bigger better magnet make a difference, or can we assume that the metal is not aluminum now. I ran the magnet over all of the metal flakes and every piece was magnetic, so I dont think there is a combination of different types of metal. I am going to be pulling the oil pan off this evening. Does anyone have any tips on what to look for when I'm inspecting down there? This is gonna be my first time looking in that region, so Im not sure if I will absolutely know what is normal and abnormal wear.

 

[drewvr4]

pull the pan off...look in the bottom of the pan for metal...i think we are all almost sure they will be some there.

now you will be able to see the crank and the rods connected to them, grab each rod and try to move it side to side(move twords the other rods), if you feel play then you have a rod bearing that has shelled on you.

if one feels bad which you really will be able to tell, take an 11(metric) 12 or 16 point i cant really remember(you will probably have to buy one) and pull the cap off...if the bearing looks like it has gouges or you see a bronze color its gone...

so check that if you end up pulling one off take a pic and put it on here...also get a new set of rod bearings even if you pull one off, better safe then sorry

 

[skwints]

UPDATE: Ok. Got the oil pan off. I found this metal in the bottom of the pan. It is magnetic and they are some decent sized pieces. They are very thin like paper pieces of metal. Here is a picture of the metal with a one inch drill bit so you can see the sizes. Does anyone know where this metal could have come from? I glanced at the crankshaft, and I didnt see anything out of the ordinary. The metal is semi flexible as well. Its not hard or brittle. Any suggestions???

 

[skwints]

UPDATE: Alright. Got all the pistons out. Cylinder #1 rod bearing was shot. Almost completely worn down. There was over 3/8 of an inch play moving up and down, which explains tha noise and the metal. MISSION COMPLETE. It was a lot more work than I thought it would be to find the culprit... but I had soo much fun in the process. And the best is yet to come. Now I have an excuse to build build build up the bottom end. One of my aquaintances from my old work, works at a machine shop and is gonna hook it up. Im gonna get the bottom end built along with the head, along with a bunch of porting and some new Comp cams, the 200 series I believe. Anyone have any suggestions? I have 1400 dollars worth of prevenative maintenence/performance parts on their way that should arrive next week. Im soo excited.

 

[95talon_in_ma]

Just my opinion, I'd suggest setting a goal and budget first. Once you know where you want to be, do the research and add up all of the costs. If it's over the budget, then reset your goal.
Definitely go for Forged pistons and ARP items with the rebuild. Outside of that, I'd look into the head stuff a little more. Porting might add allot of cost and not allot of benefit unless you get into the really high HP, I've seen some people state that just some Polishing does allot. Porting is good for the exhaust and turbine side of things though and relatively easy.
Same thing with the cams. You might get away with Stock cams for the most part. I think people are making 400+HP with them... (At least I read they are..) Didn't see it mentioned, but I wouldn't go with new cams until the turbo was upgraded..

But first thing I'd do is put a plan together before buying stuff...