1G: Hard Start Up, Rough Warm Up, Factory Boost Gauge Showing 14 PSI Even at 2000 RPM
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Fixed a TPS issue I had, now in normal DSM fashion, I have a new set of problems
When I start the car cold ( and only cold ) it takes a couple pumps of the gas, then leaving the pedal at 1\4 the way down for 5-10 seconds to even it out before it will run on its own. After this the idol is fine, no stalling or anything of that nature.
The car is running with a misfire under 2500-3000 RPM, I have ordered plugs (NGK6) and wire, and I am going to check the coil with an Ohm meter tonight when I get off work. This is not the issue that bothers me though, since a few of the other DSMs I have purchased needed regular maintenance.
The issue that bothers me is the Factory boost gauge (I know Junk ) is showing max 14psi even at 1500 RPM in any gear. The car is not building any ( or very little ) boost. Could this be a boost leak? Could the waste gate be stuck open? ( is there a way to test that?) Could the factory recirculation valve be stuck open? I’m not noticing a WHOOSHING noise or anything from the engine bay. Could the Turbo be shot even though it was perfectly fine with no oil burning or anything 12 hours ago? Could the ECU be bad\going bad?
The main reason I ask this is because the boost gauge did not start running pinned until the car started this low RPM misfire.
____________________________
-Deano- Missing my DSM's :(
Last edited by ClevelandDSM; 11-10-2009 at 07:38 AM.
Reason: New set of issues
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i would suggest doing a boost leak test first. building a boost leak tester is fairly simple and very inexpensive. if you find a leak, fix it and see if you are still having the problem. if there is no boost leak, then your wastegate may be stuck... or, knowing DSM's, it may be something else all together. your misfires are probably caused my either bad plugs or bad wires. i had one bad spark plug on a chevy i used to own, and i kept having the same misfire problem you are having.
The factory boost gauge does not show psi. It goes by what load/rpm is happening. If anything, you should buy a real boost gauge. I do not know how you think your doing 14 psi stock with zero mods. But I will tell you this, that should not be happening if you are stock.
So....
1. buy a boost gauge
2. get a boost leak tester
3. make sure your spark plugs are gaped correctly at .28, ngk only
I know its not a real 14 PSI. But im confused on why its showing Full Load under 2000 RPM , Or even after driving 10 miles an hour, come to a stop and it still shows full 14 load for about 3-5 seconds. It does 0(zero) out with the key in the on position.
This car is not going to be modded so the boost gauge is not needed. It just needs to be fixed enough to daily driver it in stock form for winter.
____________________________
-Deano- Missing my DSM's :(
You should get an aftermarket boost gauge just to keep tabs on it. It can diagnose some problems just by watching it or monitoring vacuum. Good spark plugs are a good place to start. Since you are having to give it gas at start up though it sounds more like a fuel problem than a plug or spark issue. You really need to do a boost leak test first, then see if you can monitor your o2 voltage during start up.
That misfire has to be fixed first. Forget about what the factory boost guage is saying, especially if you have a misfire. Get the misfire taken care of first and report back if needed. Don't panic and take it one step at a time.
Don't replace something when you don't know if it's bad.
1. Compression test. You should see a max of 150 all 4 for 7.8:1 compression with the pedal down to the floor.
2. Test the ecu's coolant temp sensor ( with this unplugged your car won't even start from cold temps, so imagine when it fails)
3. Check and I mean pull off all boost hoses and re-tighten them.
Spark plugs are cheap and he probably needed to do a tune up anyway.
Misfire is most likely caused because of spark issues. So replacing those parts was and is always a good idea. This could also have an effect on the starting issues, but so could a bad CTS.
Also, why would you pull off all the hoses JUST to re-tighten them? Why can't you just re-tighten them? I was trying to install my supra smic and hard pipes today. Ran into some problems, I do not think the end-tanks were flipped previously. AFTER I put the stock pipes back on, (except for one hard pipe) I forgot to re-tighten the clamps on the hose near the throttle body. Talk about a HUGE boost leak
Spark plugs are cheap and he probably needed to do a tune up anyway.
Misfire is most likely caused because of spark issues. So replacing those parts was and is always a good idea. This could also have an effect on the starting issues, but so could a bad CTS.
Nonsense.
Quote:
Also, why would you pull off all the hoses JUST to re-tighten them? Why can't you just re-tighten them?
To encourage a clue to pop up for his description.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClevlandDSM
The car is not building any ( or very little ) boost.
After doing a full tune up, checking for boost leaks and loose connections, last night (which was really needed) the car started to run 100% better. No CEL still. Idol perfect on start up. Can turn the key from outside the car and not have any issues. Ran perfect on the way home from work (15-20 minutes). Went out to get some taco bell around 9:30 ( car sat for maybe 1 1\2 hours ) Ran perfect on my way to taco bell ( about 5 mins away ) . Sat perfect in line, no surging, perfect idol.
On the way home..... The check engine light started to flicker on and off. Every time it flickers the factory boost gauge goes to max again... does not come down... Starts to runs with a heavy miss... Every time the check engine light would flicker off or 5-10 seconds it would run brand new. Then right back to the check engine light flickering on... runs like it has 0 boost, gauge maxed, random low rpm misfires. So I figure, this will be easy, let me hook up the 12v buzzer to it and figure out what’s going on. After getting home, shutting the car off and putting the key in the on position I get a perfect heart beat from the buzzer. Start it up and its purring. Take it out again and with in 1\2 a block its back on and running like hell. Pull over, turn it off, hook up the buzzer.... nothing. Turn it back on, no CEL. and so on and so forth.
Can I hook the buzzer up and leave it while the car is running and driving? Maybe then I can catch the code while it comes on intermittently? Any idea of this being a common issue or a certain part?
14 - Throttle position sensor
21 - Engine coolant temperature sensor
Car Idols Fine while not accelerating, stats in 1 key turn within 2-4 seconds. When the check engine light comes on while driving, its like Im hitting a Rev limiter around 2500 rpm. ( rah pap pap pap pap )
Coolant temp im not worried about seeing its pretty cheep and easy to find in an aftermarket brand. I guess the TPS is what is causing all the head aches with the car? The bucking, low rpm misfires, no pull. Is there any way to fix an intermittent TPS (I cleaned the Throttle body since this was a code I had before.) or is this something I am going to have to buy new? Should I pull and inspect my ECU?
* Update
Tested TPS with with an ohm meter last night. First reading was 4989 for closed position. Second reading ( the 2 and 4 terminals ) was low, at .689 on. Adjusted the position of the sensor to .970-.940 ( close as it would go to .9 while evening it out. WOT was 5k or very close to it. At the moment the car is running great.
Pulled all of the piping off the car, pulled the intercooler, Cleaned all tubing and intercooler out. ( Yuck, Packed with dirt and black stuff )
Went to replace the coolant temp sensor to find it is most likely not the issue there. There is a sensor ( vacuum switch ? ) I have not come across before on the thermostat housing. Has 2 vacuum lines coming off of it. One of which is a yellow dotted vacuum line, that is not connected anymore do to the nipple on the sensor ( vacuum switch? ) being broken off. What is this part and what is its purpose? Is it the " Thermal vacuum valve " ?
* Update
3 Hours Later.....
Back to problem #1 again. Rev limiter at 2500-3000 rpm. Spark ( I think ) Breaks up realy bad all the way up while in gear. While in Neu or Park the car will rev up perfectly, no misses no nothing, flawless. While in gear the car is almost undrivable. No codes.
Very Odd...... Hope someone sees this since you cant bumb to the main page with updates ( I do prefer it this way though )
* Update
Took it out on my lunch break... ran 100% flawless 12 mile round trip. 3 Shut offs and start ups during the trip to test it. No issues
* Update
Two days and 120 miles later and the car is still running perfect. No issues, No CEL. Not marking as resolved just so I dont end up Jinxing myself.
* Update
2 days later, failed this morning on my way to work. Back to the normal game. Factory boost gauge in dash shows 14 psi even at 1500 rpms... Car stutters, stumbles, and bucks while under throttle... Acts like it has a 3k rpm rev limiter.
Idol is fine, sits between 900-1100 and purs. Goes through all of its shifts ( slowly ).
Odd part this time is no check engine light, no codes.
Retested at work with a gauge type ohm meter ( not digital like last time ) Shows est. 5000 \ est. 880-910 \ est. 4900 - Pretty close to standard. Was a lot nicer to check it with a digital last time though lol.
____________________________
-Deano- Missing my DSM's :(
Last edited by ClevelandDSM; 11-10-2009 at 07:36 AM.
Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping"
After doing a full tune up, checking for boost leaks and loose connections, last night (which was really needed) the car started to run 100% better. No CEL still. Idle perfect on start up. Can turn the key from outside the car and not have any issues. Ran perfect on the way home from work (15-20 minutes). Went out to get some Taco Bell around 9:30 (car sat for maybe 1 1\2 hours). Ran perfect on my way to Taco Bell, about 5 mins away. Sat perfect in line, no surging, perfect idle.
On the way home, the check engine light started to flicker on and off.
Every time it flickers the factory boost gauge goes to max again, and does not come down. Starts to runs with a heavy miss. Every time the check engine light would flicker off or 5-10 seconds it would run brand new. Then right back to the check engine light flickering on, runs like it has 0 boost, gauge maxed, random low rpm misfires.
So I figure, this will be easy, let me hook up the 12v buzzer to it and figure out what’s going on. After getting home, shutting the car off and putting the key in the on position I get a perfect heart beat from the buzzer. Start it up and its purring. Take it out again and with in half a block its back on and running like hell. Pull over, turn it off, hook up the buzzer, nothing. Turn it back on, no CEL. and so on and so forth.
Can I hook the buzzer up and leave it while the car is running and driving? Maybe then I can catch the code while it comes on intermittently? Any idea of this being a common issue or a certain part?
If you can stand the noise you can leave it hooked up. At some point your going to need a datalogger so perhaps now is the time to get one. The first time I was trying to track down an problem like this I made up a LED and dropping resistor on a long wire to connect to the DLC. Much easier to ignore the flashing heartbeat than the noise from the buzzer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClevelandDSM
* Update
Got the car to cough up the codes.
14 - Throttle position sensor
21 - Engine coolant temperature sensor
Car Idles Fine while not accelerating, stats in 1 key turn within 2-4 seconds. When the check engine light comes on while driving, its like I'm hitting a Rev limiter around 2500 rpm. (rah pap pap pap pap)
Coolant temp I'm not worried about seeing its pretty cheep and easy to find in an aftermarket brand. I guess the TPS is what is causing all the head aches with the car? The bucking, low rpm misfires, no pull. Is there any way to fix an intermittent TPS (I cleaned the Throttle body since this was a code I had before) or is this something I am going to have to buy new?
Should I pull and inspect my ECU?
* Update
Tested TPS with with an ohm meter last night. First reading was 4989 for closed position. Second reading (the 2 and 4 terminals) was low, at .689 on. Adjusted the position of the sensor to .970-.940 (as close as it would go to .9 while evening it out). WOT was 5k or very close to it. At the moment the car is running great.
Since you PM'ed me I know you have read some of my posts on setting the TPS and that means you should know now that setting the TPS by resistance is not a valid means to set it. Since you don't have a datalogger or an SAFC you'll have to measure the TPS output voltage to set it and that's a major pain on a stock car.
Before you spend much more time you should pull the ECU and inspect it. Even if the caps aren't leaking, if they are original they should be replaced ASAP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClevelandDSM
Pulled all of the piping off the car, pulled the intercooler, Cleaned all tubing and intercooler out. (Yuck, Packed with dirt and black stuff)
Went to replace the coolant temp sensor to find it is most likely not the issue. There is a sensor (vacuum switch ?) I have not come across before on the thermostat housing. Has 2 vacuum lines coming off of it. One of which is a yellow dotted vacuum line, that is not connected anymore do to the nipple on the sensor (vacuum switch?) being broken off.
What is this part and what is its purpose? Is it the "Thermal vacuum valve" ?
The vacuum thermo-valve in the thermostat housing is for the federal EGR system. It keeps the EGR valve from opening before the car has warmed up.
A broken off nipple is a vacuum/boost leak and bad juju.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClevelandDSM
* Update
3 Hours Later.
Back to problem #1 again. Rev limiter at 2500-3000 rpm. Spark, I think, breaks up really bad all the way up while in gear. While in Neutral or Park the car will rev up perfectly, no misses no nothing, flawless. While in gear the car is almost undrivable. No codes.
* Update
Took it out on my lunch break, ran 100% flawless for 12 mile round trip. 3 Shut offs and start ups during the trip to test it. No issues
* Update
Two days and 120 miles later and the car is still running perfect. No issues, No CEL. Not marking as resolved just so I don't end up jinxing myself.
* Update
2 days later, failed this morning on my way to work. Back to the normal game. Factory boost gauge in dash shows 14 psi even at 1500 rpms. Car stutters, stumbles, and bucks while under throttle. Acts like it has a 3k rpm rev limiter.
Idle is fine, sits between 900-1100 and purrs. Goes through all of its shifts (slowly).
Odd part this time is no check engine light, no codes.
Retested at work with a gauge type ohm meter (not digital like last time) Shows est. 5000 \ est. 880-910 \ est. 4900 - Pretty close to standard. Was a lot nicer to check it with a digital last time though lol.
To recap. Your having problems where the factory boost gauge goes to full.
The car starts running like it's missing and the CEL turns on.
The ECU says you have a TPS and ETC failures when it will give a code.
You have a broken EGR Thermo-valve and may still have problems with your Engine Coolant Temp sensor or wiring next to the broken valve.
The ECU is seeing a sensor (right or wrong) that make it think the car is under max load. Most of the time when I see this it's an indication that the ECU is damaged but since that's usually why I'm looking to start with the results are skewed. A bad TPS that randomly spikes it's output might be the root cause but getting at the signal to monitor it is hard without a datalogger. Getting another used but good TPS might be prudent.
Pull the ECU and check it. Every 1G ECU has either had the capacitors leak or will. Best to check before throwing more time and parts at your problems. Post pictures if you don't know what your looking for.
Check the ETC sensor and it's wiring. Because of the heat the wires get hard and break.
Fix the Thermo-valve. It's MD103867. Boost leak test to see if you have any other leaks or broken hoses.
BTW. Unless you reached the point where your praying to get the car fixed, it's IDLE not IDOL.
I will buy and replace the thermo-valve and check the wiring to the ETC. As for the ECU, once I research how to check it after i get off work. I will dive right into ordering the caps and having a budy of mine that does computer repair stick them on for me.
As for the TPS. I dont know anyone else in the area with a 1G dsm that I could test off of. So that will either have to get ordered or found in a bone yard ( rare i know )
Thanks Steve.
____________________________
-Deano- Missing my DSM's :(
I will buy and replace the thermo-valve and check the wiring to the ETC. As for the ECU, once I research how to check it after i get off work. I will dive right into ordering the caps and having a budy of mine that does computer repair stick them on for me.
As for the TPS. I dont know anyone else in the area with a 1G dsm that I could test off of. So that will either have to get ordered or found in a bone yard ( rare i know )
Thanks Steve.
Before buying I'd find an ECU that was working and plug it in to see what happens.
you could also chech the ignition compasator. that would also explaine an intermitant missfire issue whaen the car is running at normal tempratures. they dont like a lot of heat if it looks swollen or smells like burnt wireing it very well would couse and issue
Code 14 TPS Issue
