ECMlink Got the air fuel ratios in check but still confused about knock, timing? PLEASE help!

[DSM-Franek]

I decided to try to tune timing some tonight after I got my air/fuel ratios in check.

(1st log uploaded) The 1st pull I left timing zeroed out, stock 2g timing tables, and I was seeing knock.

(2nd log uploaded) I then pulled timing and it got worse! I figured if afr was good and I was knocking maybe I needed to pull timing a little but no.

(3rd log uploaded) After that I said, let me experiment with more timing, and it actually seemed to look better but I was still seeing knock.

(4th log uploaded) I then added 1 more degree of timing from 5k on and it again got worse.

I'm lost on why I'm knocking. I tried pulling timing, I tried adding timing just to experiment, I really just don't get it. I'm not going lean or anything.

Can someone please give me some suggestions!

ps. all logs were at 20-22psi and 93 octane pump gas

Thanks so much in advance!
Frank

 

[sb7775]

You need to calibrate your MAS better. You are over estimating airflow by a good amount. I would guess 15-20%. I would do this before i made anymore pulls. If you need a good reference check out this site 1992 Talon Tsi AWD Project .

Steveb

 

[DSM-Franek]

I have to calibrate my stock unhacked 2g mas

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Whelp.... This is what I see. Looks like you're a little lean for pump gas. Without the help of water/meth injection 11.6:1 is a little lean. Not too bad... but on strait pump gas I would shoot for an even 10.8:1 or 11.0:1. You're leaning out right in the spot that you need the most fuel 3500 to 5500.

So, If I were you I would zero out timing again and richen your afr up between 3500rpm and 5500rpm and try to get a level 10.8-11.0:1 afr.

I'd rather you be at a safer AFR first then start messing with timing.

 

[DSM-Franek]

I don't see leaner than 11.1:1 in my logs

Where are you seeing 11.6:1?

 

[spyderturbo007]

Damn, I can't find anything I'm looking for in v3. Have you inspected your knock sensor?

 

[sb7775]

I have to calibrate my stock unhacked 2g mas

Yep take a look at the first log at 10.457sec it shows your boostEst is 25.9. That's 4-6 psi off and should be fixed first. Just in case you didn't know your boost gauge and boostEst should be the same at 100% VE witch is between 5200-5600.

After you get the mas calibrated I would zero out the fuel and timing then start over. There is no way your s16 will flow 40lbs/min. A well tuned s16g with a good intake and some 272 cams would be lucky to get to 36-38lbs. I figured you are overestimating airflow by 20% so you are probably flowing 31-33lbs/min tops but the ecu is dumping in fuel for the 40lbs/min so all that fuel you are taking out will make you lean once you get the mas calibrated.

Steveb

 

[DSM-Franek]

Damn, I can't find anything I'm looking for in v3. Have you inspected your knock sensor?

Hey what's up buddy long time no talk?

What are you looking for that you can't find? And honestly no i haven't inspected the sensor.

Yep take a look at the first log at 10.457sec it shows your boostEst is 25.9. That's 4-6 psi off and should be fixed first. Just in case you didn't know your boost gauge and boostEst should be the same at 100% VE witch is between 5200-5600.

After you get the mas calibrated I would zero out the fuel and timing then start over. There is no way your s16 will flow 40lbs/min. A well tuned s16g with a good intake and some 272 cams would be lucky to get to 36-38lbs. I figured you are overestimating airflow by 20% so you are probably flowing 31-33lbs/min tops but the ecu is dumping in fuel for the 40lbs/min so all that fuel you are taking out will make you lean once you get the mas calibrated.

Steveb

Ah okay I didn't think you had to calibrate a stock unhacked 2g mas. I will do so as per jeffgst's website.

Thanks alot,
Frank

 

[sb7775]

Just make sure to zero that fuel out you don't want to be to lean and find out the hard way. I wouldn't worry about the timing i usually add 3-5 on the 2g cars i tune. After you get the mas all set post up a log for us to take a look.

Steveb

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I don't see leaner than 11.1:1 in my logs

Where are you seeing 11.6:1?

Not to be a dick or anything... But did you read your logs before you posted them?

Timing Zeroed Log:

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Timing Removed Log:

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Timing Added Log:

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More Timing Added Log:

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[DSM-Franek]

Not to be a dick or anything... But did you read your logs before you posted them?

Timing Zeroed Log:

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Timing Removed Log:

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Timing Added Log:

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More Timing Added Log:

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Not to be a dick or anything but don't go by AFRatioEst there is an AEM UEGO logged also.

 

[sb7775]

Not to be a dick or anything but don't go by AFRatioEst there is an AEM UEGO logged also.

Your A/F Est is off because the mas isn't calibrated.

Steveb

 

[snowborder714]

If you're only trying to run 20-22psi, you've got some spiking. Just looking at the first log I see the boostest spiked to 26psi.

There is no way your s16 will flow 40lbs/min. A well tuned s16g with a good intake and some 272 cams would be lucky to get to 36-38lbs.

I have seen consistent airflow at 37lbs/min and a few blips at 38lbs/min on a stock 1g engine and a small 16g. So I don't think it's impossible.

Damn, I can't find anything I'm looking for in v3. Have you inspected your knock sensor?

Right click - ECU Config (from log)

You'll probably have to go to Display > Values and add a bunch of stuff.

 

[sb7775]

I have seen consistent airflow at 37lbs/min and a few blips at 38lbs/min on a stock 1g engine and a small 16g. So I don't think it's impossible.

I didn't say it was impossible but the average tuner on pump with a stock motor and a s16g will not get that much air flow. Just to verify I looked threw 30-50 logs on the link forum and didn't find 1 flowing 38lbs/min on pump with a good tune. Most have inflated airflow number if they do flow over 36lbs/min.

Either way the OP is still overestimating his airflow by a good amount and isn't close to maxing it out yet.

Steveb

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Not to be a dick or anything but don't go by AFRatioEst there is an AEM UEGO logged also.

Alright... My bad... I'm a DSMlink NOOB!! I thought the only values I had to look at were the ones that popped up when I open the file. I like my TunerPro...

Is there any chance you have a logged voltage of the WBO2 rather than DSMLink converting it to AFR for you? I would be interested to see how far off the reading from the gauge is than what link sees.

 

[DSM-Franek]

Alright... My bad... I'm a DSMlink NOOB!! I thought the only values I had to look at were the ones that popped up when I open the file. I like my TunerPro...

Is there any chance you have a logged voltage of the WBO2 rather than DSMLink converting it to AFR for you? I would be interested to see how far off the reading from the gauge is than what link sees.

Well the UEGO wired into the ECU with a 0-5v and I believe DSMlink converts that. So what DSMlink shows logged is the 0-5v converted.

Also does anyone else think I should try to zero everything out and calibrate my stock unhacked 2g mas?

Thanks alot,
Frank

 

[sb7775]

Well the UEGO wired into the ECU with a 0-5v and I believe DSMlink converts that. So what DSMlink shows logged is the 0-5v converted.

Also does anyone else think I should try to zero everything out and calibrate my stock unhacked 2g mas?

Thanks alot,
Frank

Calibrating the mas is step one when you start to tune. If that is off then all your numbers will be off. I cant im imagine not setting up the mas correctly because you will just be waisting your time.

You should post your log on the link forum, I think they will be very helpful to you. I just scanned threw 10 random logs on this forum and all but 1 had inflated airflow numbers because of the mas isn't calibrated. Most people overlook it.


Steveb

 

[DSM-Franek]

Calibrating the mas is step one when you start to tune. If that is off then all your numbers will be off. I cant im imagine not setting up the mas correctly because you will just be waisting your time.

You should post your log on the link forum, I think they will be very helpful to you. I just scanned threw 10 random logs on this forum and all but 1 had inflated airflow numbers because of the mas isn't calibrated. Most people overlook it.


Steveb

Okay i'll do that then tonight. I did post on the link forums but never get any responses really.

Thanks
Frank

 

[snowborder714]

It couldn't hurt. Just make sure you have the current settings somewhere in a log and just reload them if it doesn't work out.

But if something's not right and not easily fixed, I would usually say to start over from scratch.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Well the UEGO wired into the ECU with a 0-5v and I believe DSMlink converts that. So what DSMlink shows logged is the 0-5v converted.

Also does anyone else think I should try to zero everything out and calibrate my stock unhacked 2g mas?

Thanks alot,
Frank

I'm just saying from my experiences in the past with the UEGO that what the gauge displays and what the ECU sees vary considerably. Yes, it will read a steady number meaning that you are getting a consistant AFR. But the end result could be as far off as +/- .5-1.0 AFR read at the ECU vs Gauge. And on the UEGO I trust the gauge and not the analog output since you cannot program this voltage offset into the output.

Never the less, I would calibrate your MAS. But I don't think it's going to solve your knock problem. If it's over estimating your Airflow you only going to benefit from it from a knock control point of view. If the ECU sees more airflow then you will get less timing and more fuel. Therefore calibrating it will bring you down in the timing and fuel maps and you'll get more timing and less fuel.

I would also do a boost leak test. That will also make it over estimate your airflow.

 

[sb7775]

If it's over estimating your Airflow you only going to benefit from it from a knock control point of view. If the ECU sees more airflow then you will get less timing and more fuel. Therefore calibrating it will bring you down in the timing and fuel maps and you'll get more timing and less fuel.

I would say I disagree with this statment because there is rich knock also. Just my 2cents.

Steve

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I would say I disagree with this statment because there is rich knock also. Just my 2cents.

Steve

Doubt he's getting rich knock at 11.0:1 AFR on pump gas...

 

[sb7775]

Okay i'll do that then tonight. I did post on the link forums but never get any responses really.

Thanks
Frank

Whats your user name over there ill keep an eye out for it.

Steveb

 

[sb7775]

Doubt he's getting rich knock at 11.0:1 AFR on pump gas...

Lets take his first log. IT shows 10.4:1 at 7XXX, I consider this rich. Now factor in the error of the gauge in ECM link of .5-1v and now its in the high 9's and thats pig rich.

I would start from scrach. Boost leak test, set timing, double check and zero out Ecmlink setting. Then calibrate the mas drive it around for a day and calibrate the mas again. When you have everything in check then start to make some pulls.

Steveb

 

[DSM-Franek]

Whats your user name over there ill keep an eye out for it.

Steveb

My user name is the same over there. Actually I have this thread over there too.

ECMTuning User Support Forums

Thanks for the help it's greatly apreciated!
Frank