New log with PTE 54 trim (3227e) - join the tuning!

[LRS95TSI]

modifications are in profile...just installed a new turbo set it on 13 psi with an afc correction of -20 across the board, wanted to start safe and work my way to 20psi.
i have an lm-1 wb02, but it would fail saying it was too rich to read. so when i get a better tune, wb logs will accompany my pocketlogger logs.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

looks like my timing is a little high in the upper rpms, i have slight knock around 5300 rpms and i'm flowing 30.95 lb/min after correcting which means i'm making around 310hp.

obviously i'm running rich and will correct for that, wanting to get initial advice and support and make this an on going and informative thread

 

[Ravenous]

Not that I can help at all, but I just ordered an ostrich from moates and it would be great to follow your progress so that I can get a step by step feel for the appropriate way to tune. So to those leaving comments, know that you aren't just helping LRS95TSI you are helping many new tuners as well. Good luck, I'll be following along.

 

[2gGSX]

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Graph of actual vs. realized timing vs. RPM

What are your intake and coolant temps at during pulls? It looks like you may be getting some timing pulled from one of those, as you are consistently a little behind your target timing.

A big issue that you're having right now is that your airflow is so low that you are consistently jumping around timing maps. More airflow might actually make it easier for you to tune, as you would stay in the same timing map. Just a FYI--in the upper RPM range, dropping from above 2.1 g/rev to below 2.1 g/rev makes the ECU try to add three degrees of timing fairly aggressively, which could easily cause knock.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Each red line marks the boundary of a different load level. You can see you jump around maps throughout the pull.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The "Target airflow to maintain 2.1 g/rev" is given in terms of what you would see on your logger. This is the minimum airflow you would need to stay above 2.1 g/rev throughout a pull. Looking at the actual airflow you'd need, it actually looks doable given the size of your turbo.

 

[LRS95TSI]

ok thanks for the input...let me try to disect what you're saying:

i need more airflow to keep the ecu from jumping timing maps...in order to get airflow i need more boost and a better afr correct? as i mentioned before i definately plan on raising boost, just slowly and safely, i hope to go to 15-16psi then to 18 then to 20-21psi. i'm not sure of my coolant or intake temps, i believe me coolant temps to be fine as i had talked about in another thread, and i wouldn almost best my intake temps for moderate, it was 50 deg today, but i will check that out.

please continue the advice!

 

[2gGSX]

ok thanks for the input...let me try to disect what you're saying:

i need more airflow to keep the ecu from jumping timing maps...in order to get airflow i need more boost and a better afr correct? as i mentioned before i definately plan on raising boost, just slowly and safely, i hope to go to 15-16psi then to 18 then to 20-21psi. i'm not sure of my coolant or intake temps, i believe me coolant temps to be fine as i had talked about in another thread, and i wouldn almost best my intake temps for moderate, it was 50 deg today, but i will check that out.

please continue the advice!

You stated originally that with 31 lbs/min of corrected airflow, you should be at 310 hp. The 10 hp per lb/min is actually based on your tuning. With airflow, you only have the potential to make power. With tuning, you tap into that potential and make power.

Given your current fuel situation, and your front O2 voltage of 1.00, everything is pointing out that you are running very rich. Thus, you're getting much less hp per lb/min of airflow.

Your airflow isn't dependent on AFR, only the boost (in your situation).

A warning though--you should see now that pulling the airflow signal to the ECU via the SAFC has the effect of really messing with your target timing curve. I just noticed that you actually have PTE680's (which are roughly 650's). The actual correct compensation for those injectors is 450/650-1 = -31%. The fact that you're only pulling 20% fuel means that you are running really, REALLY rich. The flip side though is that if you DO pull the correct amount of fuel, this increases the amount of actual airflow you need in order to stay in the high load map by that much more. Your new required actual airflow would be..

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

This is still doable on your setup, albeit more difficult than hitting only 40 lbs/min. On my current setup, I can't even get above the required airflow until after 4000 RPM.

The flip-side is that if you're willing to have the ECU run the more aggressive 1.8 g/rev map with 19 degrees peak timing, you can knock all those airflow requirements down by a proportionate amount. You would only need 1.8/2.1 x 100% = 85.7% of the airflow.

Unfortunately, more airflow/power + more timing will generally cause knock, especially on pump gas. This is simply the limit of a piggyback system.

 

[LRS95TSI]

ok i understand what you're saying, to me though, 21 deg of timing is a little high to me, i'd rather be around 18-19 deg up top. i'm more of a conservative tuner and don't want the car to be on edge. well i will take out some more fuel to get to a normal afr, get my wb02 sensor going and report back with new afr's coolant and intake temps. my other conflict will be the walbro 190...is there a way to tell just by afr's when i'm maxing my fuel pump?

 

[2gGSX]

Signs of the fuel pump not flowing enough should look like your IDCs increasing beyond what they're supposed to be, but AFR leaning out.

Or, just an unexplained leaning out which does not respond to adding more fuel.

 

[LRS95TSI]

gotcha! so are we in agreement that getting a good afr and increasing boost will aide the progression of my tune? any other things to take into consideration

 

[2gGSX]

"Good" AFR is relative--you need to lean it out to where you aren't running obscenely rich, but you can't lean it out so much (e.g. pull too much airflow) to where it knocks you down to the 1.8 g/rev map. The only way to do this is through experimentation and very careful monitoring of your timing curve. Or better yet, you should monitor knock if possible, although this would require you to switch to DSMLink or ECU+ or EvoScan, etc.

Bottom line--be careful in whatever you do, and watch for knock/signs of knock

 

[LRS95TSI]

ok after thinking a little more about your statements i have another question/comment. i'm shooting for a solid 350whp tune. i do not want to go over that. you mentioned earlier that i needed 40+ lbs/min to achieve the appropriate map for tuning. can you elaborate on this, if my goal is lower then what airflow i need how do i achieve a good and safe tune.

 

[2gGSX]

The airflow requirement to stay on the 2.1 g/rev timing map (16 degrees peak timing) is based on how much airflow you pull with the SAFC. The more airflow you pull, the more ACTUAL airflow you need in order to keep what the ECU sees above the 2.1 g/rev mark. Hopefully that makes sense.

A horsepower goal seems much easier to deal with. Word-of-mouth knowledge says that 1 lb/min has the propensity to make 10 crank hp. Your tuning is what determines how much crank hp you actually make per unit air. For instance, running 9.5:1 and 14 degrees timing advance may only get you 6 crank hp per lb/min airflow, but running 11:1 and 19 degrees timing advance may get you 10. Do you get the idea?

With that said, given your situation, I would think that more airflow + a less efficient tune might actually help you work around the timing issue. Consider the 2.1 g/rev and 16* peak timing scenario. Tuning to a 10:1 AFR will require less airflow to be pulled than if you were to tune for something more lean. Less airflow pulled means less true airflow needed to keep compensated airflow above 2.1 g/rev. Do you see where this is going?

In the end, it's hard to give you a solid number. There are just too many variables that go in to something like this to say anything with any sort of accuracy. Your best bet (in my opinion) would be to go out and make some pulls to gather real data, and then make adjustments based on that.

If you do go out, make sure you log RPM, airflow (mass, given in lbs/min instead of Hz), timing, IDC, TPS, speed, and if possible wideband data.

 

[LRS95TSI]

i tried to get real data today except a sheriff was directly behind me before i made the pull so i haulted abruptly ..anywho, i believe i understand the concept, but i am a visual person, so i will try to get more data. i'm not able to log idc, but i will log airflow, rpm, wb02, and timing...as well as looking at my coolant and intake temps and report my results. i went to -25% on my afc and raised the boost 1.5-2 psi...so will see how the afr's come out now.

thanks for the help, will report hopefully tom.

 

[2gGSX]

Just to throw it in there--even though you're logging the wideband output, log the front O2 voltage as well. If everything is working correctly, then both of their data should correlate (meaning .92v front O2 voltage and 11:1 or something from the wideband, versus .74v front O2 voltage and 12:1 from the wideband).

 

[LRS95TSI]

update:
sorry for not posting, i have been dealing with crazy amounts of rain and temp changes. we went form 73 to 40 in 9 hours! as soon as time permits i will post more logs and continue this discussion.