Twin turbo? [Merged 11-6]

[wonderboy225]

I love to invent things and I have had quite a few ideas on how to improve perfomance on DSM's taking basic necessities to the next level. One of these was using an extra A/C compressor to feed even more cold air into the intercooler so as to neutralize the heating effect caused by the turbo. Work is still being done on this to improve functionality and practicality but the colder and denser air might make a difference. But my real passion is to find a way to convert a DSM (t/e/l) into a twin turbo. This would have to be done very carefully and would take a long time but here is what I am thinking. Custom build/rebuild an intake manifold to be symmetrical. Two throttleboddies on one linkage. Sensors would have to be worked out. The system would only work on an AFC, no MAS whatsoever. Find position for second turbo and determine mounting hardware locations. Find way to use one FMIC for two turbos (plumbing will have to have pipes that join like a collector). Injectors and fuel system remain (upgraded of course), but higher flows will be required to match the air. All necessary engine upgrades will have to be made to accomodate the new power. Low compression pistons are a must. Exhause mani must be enlarged to the max as well as O2 housing. Possibly a custom header that consists of two pieces that duel out the exhaust. Bore out the chambers as large as the pistons will allow (get as large pistons as possible).

That is my completed list. If anyone found the time or energy to read this then give me some feedback? What kind of power levels would you expect? How much? $3,000? $5,000? $10,000? Problems that pose a threat? Cool factor? Thanks.

Ryan

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

The only problem I see is a 4cyl trying to feed 2 turbos with any effciency. You would have to use 2 ball-bearing turbos like t25's or t-28's. Both turbos would have to be in the front of the car or the exhaust manifold would have to be contorted and would too long to reach anywhere else. You can't just have a AFC you would need complete engine management like haltech, PMS,DSMlink or AEM. Yes it would be cool but for the money is costs you could probably buy a 1G 3000gt VR-4

Later,

 

[wonderboy225]

true but the whole point is tt on a 1G dsm and not only that you'll add about 500lbs for a 3000GT

 

[undrpsi]

if you go to www.ddynopower.com , he has already done it, he has been r&d for about a year now with a 91 (i think) laser awd. i dont know if it is finished though.

 

[cmc]

On another board there was a little talk about this, but you would really have to build your engine(go as far as a custome block perhaps). And the question is: efficency, can you really get more out of a twinturbo on a 4cyl? than a single? Most likely not. I beleive the main reason a twin turbo setup will work on 6cyl is they are V6's not straight 6's. Then there is the idea of spooling I would think, you would have half the exhaust to spool a turbo, hence needing a smaller turbo, or could run them sequensialy(s/p).

 

[larryd]

just doesnt make sense to me.. most of the Supra guys who are TT if they want to make more power switch to single larger turbo

 

[Ludachris]

Yeah, in the end, I believe a single turbo setup is the way to go, especially for 4 cylinders. Don't get me wrong, it's a cool idea, and would be a hit at a show, but I wouldn't expect to gain anything performance-wise.

 

[IPT]

Larger turbos in general have a greater efficeny then the smaller ones. The tolerances are broader on the smaller turbos. Smaller turbos also have the tendency to thicker compressr blades compared to the larger ones. If you look at the compressor maps on the smaller compressor wheels you would find that the smaller turbos are only about 70-74% efficent (there are some exceptions) and some of the larger ones like the To4E 50 or 60 trim are 78-80% efficent.

 

[theplastik]

I need some help here. I've been seriously considering a twin turbo setup for my eclipse engine. currently it has a big 16g. since the 16g has a similar lag time to the stock turbo i was wondering what size turbo would be ideal to put on as the secondary turbo for a twin turbo set up. i was thinking it was a good idea since ive seen a couple of eclipses with the t25 in a twin turbo set up. what else would i need to have this setup? split manifold? one or two intakes? ive heard of different types of twin turbo set ups. one of them being 'sequintial'? i dont know much else of the other types of twin turbo setups. can anyone help?

 

[BerZerk]

twin turbo setups

 

[BatmanGSX]

Running them in parallel would be easier, but not that great. Running two turbos sequentially is better but more complicated and costly. In my opinion you can make more power for less money, and slightly more lag, with a larger single turbo.

I know it sounds cool but it's not really worth your time unless you want some sort of lame show car.

 

[theplastik]

whats the largest turbo a stock motor can handle? whats the best option? i was going to buy a t03/04 but someone told me the 20g is the same but easier to install.

 

[EuroGSTSpyder]

well as far as I know a twin turbo setup doesnt really give that much when you put it in terms of work+costs vs effect:-(
Wonder why the Supra guys go from a twinturbo setup(stock) to a large single turbo setup?;-)
To make a twin turbo setup work..well..it aint that easy.I would go for a larger single setup instead.

 

[Tevenor]

Originally posted by theplastik
whats the largest turbo a stock motor can handle? whats the best option? i was going to buy a t03/04 but someone told me the 20g is the same but easier to install.

It's not necessarily about size, but more about effectiveness. I can through a big ass turbo on it but if it doesn't spool till 7000 rpm, what good is it?

 

[RocketDSM]

This can be typified by looking back to the JDM market. A Skyline GT-R V-Spec N1 came with about 500HP. The largest I seen one get with twin turbos was 850HP. Not to say that is where it ends, but that is the biggest I've seen. When you look at the Skylines that go "back" to one turbo, you start hitting over 1100HP. The only advantage I have seen to twin turbos depends on which style they are run in - 1)Sequential: Beats the lag problems of a large turbo by spoolling a little one first, then a big one (No lag, Very Costly and Difficult to run); 2) Parallel: Lag roughly double that of each turbo would have been individually, but you flow twice the air (Very Laggy, Easy to build). It depends on what else you do to the engine and what turbo(s) you run. On a 2.4L stroker, I can see making two T25/T28/16G (or a combo there of) work to some effect. On a 2.0L, I doubt you can make any real progress over a single turbo.

 

[Black95GSX]

Originally posted by theplastik
whats the largest turbo a stock motor can handle? whats the best option? i was going to buy a t03/04 but someone told me the 20g is the same but easier to install.

You could do a ballbearing turbo, which gives you ther benefits of a large turbo w/o the lag.

A few places right now are making "bolt on" garretts.


I installed one this weekend on John's car (Muttedtsiawd), and the install was smooth... well, after we got that @#$!@#$ mutt of his car, it was smooth.


I know I sound like an "AGP Post-Whore"... but there products are very good IMO...
You might want to check out a L1R, spools fast and should have the power of a 20g, only with a lot less lag.

 

[theplastik]

ive heard larger turbos with turbo lag of a t25 are pretty costly though.

 

[Black95GSX]

BB Turbos arn't super costly anymore.... well, not if you know where to go......

example: (L2R)
*-supports 550bhp
*-54lb/min compressor
*-latest 10 bladed GT30 turbine wheel
*-your choice T04B or T04E compressor housing
*-ported 7cm turbine housing
*-optional 34mm adjustable internal waste gate
$1400


No, they are not as cheep as a 16g... but for what you get vs. price, they are a pretty good deal.


Like I said though... not trying to be the AGP Whore here..... just passing out info about there products.

 

[BryanK]

I'm not sure I understand why a sequential turbo setup is would cost more than a twin. Admittedly I'm a novice at this, but shouldn't lag all boil down to your turbine blades? IE the smaller/more spaced out the blades, than the quicker it'll spool? I know there's a lot more that plays in with that, but shouldn't your turbine blades pretty much decide your lag?

 

[bdenny112]

ok i just got a 1990 plymouth laser RS turbo and i was wondering if there was any way to convert it into a twin turbo car.... if anyone knows please tell me how and how much it would cost. thanks

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

There is a TT thread already in the 2.0 section. Look it up.

 

[Hobbes =^.^=]

Originally posted by EuroGSTSpyder

Wonder why the Supra guys go from a twinturbo setup(stock) to a large single turbo setup?

I think he summed it up the best. The fastest Supras are always the single turbo ones. They get the TT and end up going with the single.

 

[RocketDSM]

The problem is that a small turbine can't turn a big impeller without a lot of lag. Without a large impeller you aren't going to make a lot of boost. With a larger turbine, you induce lag. It's a lose-lose deal. As for why a sequential setup is so hard. Try making a turbo completely shut off. I dare you. You have to make 100% sure, triple checked that ZERO airflow is across it's turbine. That means LOTS of seals and vacuum work to make a valve to seal off the little turbo after the big one is spooled. I recommend you go searching RX-7 sites and someone is bound to have a graphic showing how Mazda did it for the RX-7. It was printed in Sport Compact Car a while back also (as a sidebar). In the RX world it is known as the "spider web" of vacuum lines and it breaks every few thousand miles causing turbo havoc and killing power. I don't know how Toyota did it, never had a Supra to care. Sequential gives all kinds of performance benefits, but you have pass all the engineering hurdles to get it to work. Imagine the complexity of super-AND turbo-charging a car. You are looking at about the same complexity to sequentially twin turbocharge a car (any car).

 

[theplastik]

damn. screw that. i think i'll just get a 20g.

 

[dsm_racing`]

I got a question I always hear people talk about a twin tubo eclipse(4cyl). Are people just stupid or can you actually do that? I know on a V6 and a V8 you can do that. But how the hell are you gonna pull that off on a inline motor? Wouldn't it be pointless anyways? Just a thought