Baer Track 13" or TCE Wilwood FSL 13"

[1992AWDDSM]

I have narrowed down my brake upgrade choices to these two kits. I would like to hear some input on what people have experienced personally with either of these kits.

I am looking at the Baer Track kit that includes 13" rotors and I am looking at the Wilwood 13" Road Race kit from TCE. I will likely go with Hawk pads with the Baer kit and 'J' compound pads from Wilwood.

Here are links to the kits.

Baer Track Brake Kit

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Wilwood Road Race Kit

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[Blizz92tsi]

hey 1992AWDDSM,
I've personally owned the Baer setup on my last dsm and absolutely loved them. My ABS quit working for some reason, but with the Baer's it wasn't needed. Stopping was no longer an issue. I'd reccommend this setup to any fellow dsmer. A couple of things though you might keep in mind is weight and cost. I don't know about either between your two choices, but those might be a factor. I personally would buy another Baer setup in a heart beat. Good luck.

 

[Blizz92tsi]

The ABS wasn't working before the Baer install by the way.

 

[TSiAWD666]

I remember considering Wilwoods, but decided against after discovering the kit they had back then had no dust seals for the calipers. My personal research indicated this was a must on a street car if you didn't intent to rebuild/clean your calipers periodically. Of course maybe they have them now, or the kit you're referring to uses a caliper that uses dust seals, but you may want to check to be sure.

 

[1992AWDDSM]

Wilwood 'claims' dust seals are a non-issue. None of the kits they have sold for race or street duty have ever failed due to dust. IT would make sense to me that having seals would be a good thing. But wouldn't they know best?

I also noticed the Baer kit has crossdrilled rotors. Now I know drilled rotors form stress cracks. So I don't want those, right? But then I see that even Porsche offers drilled rotors as an expensive option. So who am I to believe???


The link for TCE changed. Here is the new one: Wilwood Kit

 

[TSiAWD666]

I'd like to know what data they base their claim on that the dust seals aren't needed. Do they have any street cars that also do open-track events? Is that an interest of yours, or do you plan on just keeping it on the street?

I went through these same questions with Wilwood before, and they told me that if I planned on using this car for open-track events, I would need to rebuild the calipers from time to time, up to once a season. To some that's reasonable, but I'd rather just have the simple dust seals in there. They couldn't tell me why they don't have them... they couldn't tell me the negatives of dust seals. That doesn't mean there aren't any, of course.

Oooh, they have a rear upgrade for the 2g. Grr, solid rotor...

Btw, have you considered Stoptech's kit for the 2g?

 

[1992AWDDSM]

I don't plan on road racing on a track, but I do drive rather aggressively sometimes on the street.

StopTech is pretty schweet, but good lord, they cost more than double what the other kits cost.

 

[TSiAWD666]

Yeah, I realized after my post and glancing through the Wilwood link that you were obviously on a lower budget than I had assumed. I'm used to thinking in the $1700+ range for a 13" rotor 4-piston caliper setup, and Stoptech is pretty darned cheap for the most part.

 

[jpolizo]

I have the Baer upgrade and love it to death. I do a lot of mountain driving and those things work great. I can put the car on it's nose and stop anytime I want to or modulate very fine control with no surprises. The Baer upgrade is great.

That all said, I had a devil of a time getting them installed. It turns out I had the wrong instructions (twice) and the wrong hardware kit. Baer was great, though, and I can't fault their customer service once I notified them of the problems.

 

[1992AWDDSM]

Anybody else have some input?

 

[c5chris]

Originally posted by 1992AWDDSM
I also noticed the Baer kit has crossdrilled rotors. Now I know drilled rotors form stress cracks. So I don't want those, right? But then I see that even Porsche offers drilled rotors as an expensive option. So who am I to believe???

Porsche rotors are specially cast with holes in them as opposed to having them drilled like most rotors. I dont know if they are cryo treated also but those rotors are sturdy as hell. A friend has them installed on his Vette and they are nice.

It is true that cross-drilled rotors break during extended use in autocross/roadracing. Baer recommends 'seasoning' the rotors which is actually a heat cycling period, but even then they still break or form stress cracks around the holes. For racing, i would look into slotted ones or even the stock style with no holes, no slots - no nonsense. Holes and slots apply to the olden days when brakepads produce gasses during friction. With today's technology, braking compounds do not need slots or holes to get rid of gasses coz the do not form anymore between the pads and rotors.

 

[NDgsx]

If you wear pads down near the backing plate on a track day you WILL melt dust seals on the pistons. Regardless if you have a Baer kit or stock calipers (stoptech uses a better material).

I do track days and DAILY drive my car with wilwood 4 piston FSL calipers. I have no problems.
If you're not doing track days I don't know why you want a "big" brake kit anyway, just get some good pads for a street car. Porterfield r4s, carbotech panther, etc..

 

[NDgsx]

If you wear pads down near the backing plate on a track day you WILL melt dust seals on the pistons. Regardless if you have a Baer kit or stock calipers (stoptech uses a better material).

I do track days and DAILY drive my car with wilwood 4 piston FSL calipers. I have no problems.
If you're not doing track days I don't know why you want a "big" brake kit anyway, just get some good pads for a street car. Porterfield r4s, carbotech panther, etc..

 

[Omega]

Um, better brakes are one of the best upgrades a person can do. I don't care if we all don't race at a track all the time. If it means that I can avoid an accident and be able to drive my car harder/SAFER then I am all for it. No set of "race pads" and stock dia rotors will ever compare to the braking I now have in my Formula with the BAER Track system.

NDgsx: Are you aware of a the RPO code 1LE on an F-body? It is basicly a suspension upgrade. Within that upgrade you also get 12" front rotors and dual piston calipers though. I should mention that the stock brakes are 10.5" rotors and single piston calipers. Now, GM added these brakes because that option designated that you want to drive the car... and I mean DRIVE. Looks like a simple set of pads just wasn't quite good enough to get the job done.

For those that have not upgraded their brakes. Once you have swapped them, you will wonder why you didn't do it sooner!

 

[NDgsx]

Omega, did you try a set of pads other than the stock ones on your forumla?
Did you do any testing before/after your baer install with a real set of pads?

I'll break this down to the rudamentary stuff.
The pressure on your brakes pistons does not stop the car.
More pistons does not mean more pressure on the pad unless the total area of the pistons combined is larger.
The pressure on the pads does not stop the car.
The friction between the brake pad and rotor does not stop the car.
Your tires stop the car. Once your brakes lock up and the tire is sliding there is no physical way to slow the car any quicker (parchute aside). Sorry it's not going to happen, you have to get a tire with a higher coeficent of friction if you want to reduce braking distance anymore under the same conditions.

With porterfield pads all the way around on stock single piston calipers (with the smaller front rotors) I could get the ABS to kick in at close to 40mph with 245/40r17 kumho MXs (one of the highest coefficents of friction of any true street tire sold in the us market).
How often do I use 100% of my braking ability on the street above 70mph? Never. I doubt most of the people on this board do either. Now I'm not saying to drive like a grandma, I do go into the triple digits on the street, BUT I never approach a corner or car braking so late that I have to use anymore than 50% of my total braking traction available. It's a stupid thing to do on the street, I never drive at 10/10ths.
If someone on here does then that's a different story and they are going to make up a smaller precentage of the people on this site.

Now lets talk about them and why they might larger rotors or different calipers. There are TWO reasons to go with a larger rotor. Number one is to get a larger heat sink, because you are generating too much heat for the current rotor size. The second is to generate more braking torque given the same line pressure and piston area, that's because you increased the length of your lever arm.
Fade:
With the stock rotor size and decent pads (on a dsm, this isn't an f-body site) you can slow down from over 100 to 50 about three times before getting any type of fade. This is in my personal experience of two different DSMs I owned and three of my friends cars. Sorry I don't have any charts or nifty graphs, you'll just have to take my word on it.

So if someone frequently drives in the triple digits and brakes hard from those speeds repeatidly a larger brake kit would be to their advantage. Very few people do that on a regular enough basis during street driving to justify a $700-$1600 brake kit.

Torque:
While I might reach maximum braking ability with very sticky tires at 40mph for a given torque input that does not mean that my stopping distance from 140-100mph would not be shorter with a braking setup that generated more torque. That really didn't make sense did it?
Basically if your tires have not stopped to rotate you have not exceeded your available traction and more torque could be applied through the tire.
So if a "big" brake kit available for your car can generate more torque than the stock setup did your braking distance from say 140-100mph WILL BE REDUCED. However you eventually reach a point of diminishing returns when slowing down to zero, once again limited by the tires. Case in point, my car with the TCE 12.2" rotors and FSL calipers with my track pads (coefficent of friction of .55 if I remember right) can lock up my 245 MXs at 75mph. My braking distance from 50 mph (where my street pads can lock up) is no shorter with the grippier pads, because I have reached the limit of torque my tires can apply.
However at speeds above 100mph the difference is amazing. The race pads can slow the car from 120-80mph in a much shorter distance.
How come? The equation for braking distance vs speed for a given torque input relies on a square of the speed (if memory serves me right, I'm not at home and don't have it in front of me).
Sooo if a person is frequently driving at very high speeds and requires a shorter stoping distance than they can get with stock brakes and pads that have a higher coefficent of friction than they just might want to look into a brake kit that produces more torque than the stock brakes for a given line pressure.

Now all that being said how many people on here need that high speed braking ability frequently enough to justify the cost of the big brake kit if they only drive on the street? Extremely few.



Ok your F body example, no I haven't, I haven't done any research into F bodies. Here's some thoughts on the matter. What wheels and tires did the 1LE option come with? I would assume that they are wider and most likely a tire model that is more sticky than standard issue, so the car has more traction for braking torque available to use. How can GM do that easily?
A larger piston area will apply more pressure to a pad for the same line pressure, hence generating more torque. However the larger piston will displace more fluid, calling for a longer travel of the master cylinder, or a larger master cylinder diameter. Most of todays larger sports cars already have mcs in the 7/8"-1" range which is the limit of what I have seen available for any brake system (automotive). So if they used a larger piston they would have got more brake pedal travel per given pedal pressure, resulting in a crappy pedal feel. Throw that idea out the door.
Pads with a higher coefficent of friction than the standard pads. Sure they could do this, however the pads and rotors will wear at a quicker rate as well as make more noise and dust. That's not something people want in a production vehicle, remember a lot of people buy cars or a higher trim level for the "status", Joe Jackoff that buys the 1LE option for the letter, or different wheels, etc... doesn't want to replace the pads at 35k. Neither does GM want the complaints from the wussy ass american public. Throw that idea out.
So what can they do? Increase the rotor diameter to get a longer lever arm. Badabing badaboom, win win situation. Still has a great pedal feel, doesn't wear out quickly, and it has more fade resistance to boot.


and you thought I had the "wiseman" title for being an idiot

 

[VanDSM]

Originally posted by NDgsx



and you thought I had the "wiseman" title for being an idiot

:laugh:

Thanks for the post Nick

 

[Omega]

To be honest I didn't even notice your status until your reply.


I had gone through several sets of pads on my formula. I was impressed with the results of PF Z-rated pads but I wanted more. This came about when I had to panic stop on the highway and smoked the brakes (here is when your high coefficient of friction of the tires kicks in). The tires at the time were GSC's (can't remember the brand). Factor in NJ drivers; I had had enough. At times were I was using 40-50% braking with the old setup, I am now only applying 15-25%. I pity the poor sod that is behind me if I have to stop when the pads are warm, even I have made myself dizzy.. but anyway.

It is the extra torque (like you said) that is what I love. I do not miss the feeling of the car being able to over power its own braking capacity.

Moving on to DSM's I don't know if it is my driving style, but I am able to consistently warp rotors. This is my second DSM (the first being a NT 1G) and every few months I need new rotors. I am at the point where I do not bother to skim them they are just too thin (shitty material?) to bother with. Before you deem me as some sort of Indy driver wanna be, I am not. Granted I am no grandma but battling (and I do mean battle sometimes) around where I live isn't always a picnic.

Stopping distances:

If you have locked up your brakes then you have gone too far. Granted your braking ability does depend on your tires, but it is the brakes that enable you to modulate your traction with the tires against the road. If I can not reach the maximum traction point of my tires then a) my sticky tires are not being used to their potential and b) I need better brakes to utilize that missing margin of tire traction.

Idiot I never claimed you to be, but I disagree with your views on what a street enthusiast should have.

 

[TSiAWD666]

The only thing Nick neglected to mention is the effects of caliper stiffness.

 

[tqlla]

Bigger brakes are worth it... everytime.

If you used 100% braking power just 1 time to avoid an accident... then it was worth it. My brakes have already saved me once. So they were worth it.

On my 3000GT, I went from 2 piston 10.8 inch brakes(GSX AWD brakes), to 11.7 inch brakes with 4 piston calipers. My car will stop on a dime no problem.

I am trying to upgrade my eclipse's brakes. right now. The Upgrade I did above will not work on an eclipse, because the suspensions are completely different

I would probably go with the BAER, because of clearance issuses. THough, I do love 4 piston brakes

 

[Todd TCE]

I won't rock the boat on rules about vendor posts, many of you know me anyhow (is that good or bad?? ) , but I will debug a comment above.

Porsche rotors are NOT cast with holes in them! This is a great urban myth. They are drilled and chamfered like all the others. This from a Brembo tech who I was in conversation with some time ago. Apparently even they get a kick out of this rumor!

 

[NDgsx]

Originally posted by Omega
To be honest I didn't even notice your status until your reply.


Moving on to DSM's I don't know if it is my driving style, but I am able to consistently warp rotors. This is my second DSM (the first being a NT 1G) and every few months I need new rotors. I am at the point where I do not bother to skim them they are just too thin (shitty material?) to bother with. Before you deem me as some sort of Indy driver wanna be, I am not.

Idiot I never claimed you to be, but I disagree with your views on what a street enthusiast should have.

That's ok, it was actually a joke.

This is a problem that I have heard from quite a few people, but I personally haven't had that problem. What I would do is first check the rotor while it's being turned and make sure it's actually warped. If you had pad deposits (which you would see most likely anyway) that could cause the pulsation. Also watch the guy set up the lathe, I've seen two "warped" rotors that were really caused by the employee doing a terrible job of seating the rotor. I rotate the rotor on the cone a few times and make a scribe line each time, if it's all in the same spot then I really warped it. If it's not, I screwed up.

That's fine, opinions are opinions and they're meant to be voiced.

 

[TSiAWD666]

My grandmother can consistently warp rotors. That's not a way to qualify yourself as in need of a brake upgrade. Warped rotors on street cars are generally caused by heating up the brakes and then clamping down on them at a stop light, or parked. This will lead to the rotors cooling unevenly as you sit there and warp. Try using your parking brake at stop lights, and refraining from clamping on them with the brake pedal to hold you still, and I'll bet you'll see a lot less warping.

 

[Todd TCE]

Or have her learn to driive a stick!

You guys are good! You 'get it' here. No 100mph stops at the light please.

 

[TSiAWD666]

Hey, since we have the ear of Todd, make a rear upgrade for a 2g with vented rotors and two-piston calipers damnit, and a front kit using 4-piston calipers with dust boots! Wait, I think you fulfilled the latter request... Hmm, maybe that should be another thread...

Glad you posted regarding the porsche rotors. I'd read that on another forum, allegedly posted by someone working for Porsche in Germany, but I couldn't remember where, and didn't feel I had enough authority to re-state it

 

[Todd TCE]

Hmm.

Yup, the booted caliper is a done dea. But max size is 12.2 and I'd not consider it a track caliper, it's a damn nice street/looker part though! Sold one set of them for another car in six months....

Rear kits? Well there are issues. The only one to date is the twin piston rear on a solid rotor. Not by design, but rather requiement. The caliper does not suport wider rotors. Max size is .38" And yes, I considered caliper bridge spacers. I just didn't like it. Truth is I don't really like the set up I'm offering! Looks are great to match the fronts, but for hard core users the rotor could be better, the caliper needs smaller pistons and the mounts are as I was told; lacking. The plate all this bolts to is just too soft. And the brackets are overly complicated. But then again I've sold more than a few.

I think your best bet is the twin piston off the rear of the 3000GT. Either the floater or the fixed have 1.5" pistons. That's the right size! Compared to the 1.75 of mine and all the ohters I even looked at. No way will I do a 1.38FSL with a 1.75DLS rear! Talk about rear bias.....

Maybe I'll come up with an answer some day,maybe someone will beat me to it! I am in fact looking at a small four pot for the back that uses a vented rotor, but then I need to consider the mounts too. A step above the DLS, but would you really pay a grand for this?



BTW,. sold a rear 'upsize' for a 1G 2WD and the customer has an AWD....seem he found a way to make it fit...not the intent of it, but kudos for seeing it through...maybe I need to see what can be done there too.

Refreshing bunch here in the 1/2G crowd too I might add. Long story.

(have a cold so spelling sucks)