Lower control arm ball joints...

[kingjust]

What's up fellas. I got a question about these damn arms. I just replace all 4 lowers up front, but I didn't have anything to measure the amount of torque I had tighten them to. But ever since then my "return to center" while steering is slugish. When I make a full turn, it will not come all the way back to center keeping my car angled for the turn. Now, I have come to the conclusion that it could be these 2 things. Power steering pump fluid needs to be changed, or I over tightened the ball joints for the lower control arms. I want to loosen then retorque them, but I really am unsure of the effects of that. Give me some insight guys, my arms are getting huge fighting with my car...

KJ

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Sounds like a caster problem, if I'm not mistaken caster has a dramatic effect on your steering wheel's "return to center".
While caster is not adjustable, other things like toe and camber (depending if you have a camber kit of some kind) are. And those can have impact on caster.

Did you get an alignment after you replaced 4 key suspension components?

Also the chances are, if anything, you've under torqued some of your components. It is near impossible to get a torque wrench on the balljoints themselves so you kinda have to free-ball it with a large 22mm wrench.

Here's an excerpt from SplitPi:
"Torque Specs:
Lateral Control Arm to Knuckle bolt: 43-52 ft/lb
Lower Control Arm to Knuckle bolt: 43-52 ft/lb
Dampener Fork to Lower Control Arm Bolt: 65 ft/lb (temperarly tighten, then fully tighten when vehicle is on the ground in an unladen state.
Lateral Control Arm to SubChassis bolt: 60 ft/lb
Lower Control Arm to SubChassis bolt: 72-87 ft/lb (temperarly tighten, then fully tighten when vehicle is on the ground in an unladen state."

What brand parts did you use?
Some manufacturers have the compression bushing already flipped for us, while others, like OEM may maintain the offset caster for the car to track straight on crowned streets. This will affect your caster by a few degrees.

 

[kingjust]

Sounds like a caster problem, if I'm not mistaken caster has a dramatic effect on your steering wheel's "return to center".

Did you get an alignment after you replaced 4 key suspension components?

Also the chances are, if anything, you've under torqued some of your components. It is near impossible to get a torque wrench on the balljoints themselves so you kinda have to free-ball it with a large 22mm wrench.

Here's an excerpt from SplitPi:
"Torque Specs:
Lateral Control Arm to Knuckle bolt: 43-52 ft/lb
Lower Control Arm to Knuckle bolt: 43-52 ft/lb
Dampener Fork to Lower Control Arm Bolt: 65 ft/lb (temperarly tighten, then fully tighten when vehicle is on the ground in an unladen state.
Lateral Control Arm to SubChassis bolt: 60 ft/lb
Lower Control Arm to SubChassis bolt: 72-87 ft/lb (temperarly tighten, then fully tighten when vehicle is on the ground in an unladen state."

What brand parts did you use?
Some manufacturers have the compression bushing already flipped for us, while others, like OEM may maintain the offset caster for the car to track straight on crowned streets. This will affect your caster by a few degrees.

Some brand, I don't remember, it was exactly like a mitsu part because I compared. Either way, it was a good piece, I had my friend who works at a dealership and my teacher in my suspension class inspect it for me. Had a good ol time putting in the energy suspension bushing for the lateral CA .

But, if I can remember correctly, there is no caster adjustments for AWD's. The hunter system and the... damn I forgot the name of the other alignment system we have in school, doesn't show options to adjust caster not unless I had a adjustable plate for the coilovers I have. Torqueing the bolts, yeah, i'm pretty sure they are past that... trust me!

Continueing with this caster thing, the stiff "steering" only started happening when I put in both lower control arms for the front. I might just loosen up the castle nuts a bit... what do you think about the power steering fluid looking like bile green ... . Let me know, because tonight, i'll be hacking up my driver side rear trailing arm (seized bolt) so that I can put on the polys in there, joy oh joy!

KJ

 

[wret]

Over-torquing the ball joints won't make the pivots stiffer. You need an alignment.

 

[talonalex92]

Would those poly bushings have any effect on that? Aside from him needing an alignment, I would think those bushings would make things feel a lot stiffer.

 

[1992awdlaser]

Caster is what makes your wheel return to center after turning. The only alignment I have done on a dsm was on my 1g and that was a while ago. I don't remember if they had a caster adjustment or not. The alignment machine will telll you if caster is off or not even if there isn't an adjustment for it. If it is off and there isn't an adjustment then contact Specialty Products Corp(SPC) and ask if they make anything for the caster to be adjusted. The ball joint nut being too tight or loose won't change how the steerin reacts. If there is no adjustment, and spc doesn't make a part for it, and you don't want to figure out why the caster is out then you can elongate the holes where the strut bolts to the car which will allow for you to adjust it.

 

[wret]

If there is no adjustment, and spc doesn't make a part for it, and you don't want to figure out why the caster is out then you can elongate the hole where the strut bolts to the car which will allow for you to adjust it.

The key word is "strut", which a 1g has but a 2g does not (unless you get really technical with definitions). Moving the mounting point for the strut/shock thingy will not change caster on a double wishbone 2g.

 

[1992awdlaser]

The key word is "strut", which a 1g has but a 2g does not (unless you get really technical with definitions). Moving the mounting point for the strut/shock thingy will not change caster on a double wishbone 2g.

I didn't realise the 2g didn't have a strut setup like the 1g. I guess I just figured the 2g was the same as the 1g. So you are right.

 

[kingjust]

Got the alignment fellas, still the same! I don't know what else to do, next i'm going to replace the power steering fluid and see what happens. Let me know what else you guys come up with!

KJ

 

[1992awdlaser]

Did they give you a print out of the alignment readings? If so put a picture of it up.

 

[kingjust]

Did they give you a print out of the alignment readings? If so put a picture of it up.

No, I did it myself last night. here is what I remember.

Camber is off because I havn't installed camber kits (ksport coilover with about an inch drop), which I have laying in my room.

Camber front left -1.0 right -.9
Toe front left .04 right .03

Camber rear left -1.2 right -1.3
Toe rear left .12 right .11 (in spec)
Thrust angle .01

That's pretty damn good don't you think?

KJ

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Did you do this with string?

And how is the fluid for your PS, besides green? Any leaks? Groaning?

 

[kingjust]

Did you do this with string?

And how is the fluid for your PS, besides green? Any leaks? Groaning?

Why do you ask if I did it with a string? I did it at my college on the alignment machine. It's the ones that use the reflective pads with the base pulsing back and forth lasers. Power steering fluid looks like bile... need to replace it. It only groans when i'm at the end of the max turns to one side. That's about it.

KJ

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Why do you ask if I did it with a string? I did it at my college on the alignment machine. It's the ones that use the reflective pads with the base pulsing back and forth lasers. Power steering fluid looks like bile... need to replace it. It only groans when i'm at the end of the max turns to one side. That's about it.

KJ

If there is groaning in the P/S, it definitely needs to be serviced. Hopefully that sorts out your turn-back issue.

Heh, the reason I asked about the string was because some of the adventurous types do their own alignments with string and levels, heck probably even a compass set for all I know. It is surely not as precise, but some of our local experts have been known to get it pretty damn close.

Also, I noticed you did not include a caster measurement. Kind of a vital piece of info regarding your alignment and the connection between turn-back and caster values.

 

[asexton6969]

Can you post up your caster readings?

 

[kingjust]

If there is groaning in the P/S, it definitely needs to be serviced. Hopefully that sorts out your turn-back issue.

Heh, the reason I asked about the string was because some of the adventurous types do their own alignments with string and levels, heck probably even a compass set for all I know. It is surely not as precise, but some of our local experts have been known to get it pretty damn close.

Also, I noticed you did not include a caster measurement. Kind of a vital piece of info regarding your alignment and the connection between turn-back and caster values.

I'll get the caster readings today (I have the suspension class today), but the alignment machine or computer states that caster cannot be adjusted and so does the DSM maintenance cd. If that is the case why need it, but I will check it though to see if it is in spec? Has anyone ever replaced their control arms and over torqued the nuts that lock in the tapered bolts on the ball joints?