What would I need to out handel a stock R1 FD3S?

[RipperXX]

Car's a 1990 AWD TSi, you can see the power mod's under the profile. I still need injectors and a chip/DSM link but my main focus now is more on handling.

After rideing in a early 90's MR2 and my friends RX-7 (FD) I really feel like im driveing this giant boat... Sooo since I dont know much about suspention other than basic bolt on's...

What would some of you guru's recomend far as tire's, wheel size's (i know to get the lightest wheel possible) shock, springs / coilovers, sway bars etc. etc. etc.


I want the car to ride "comfortable" on smooth roads, which where I live in GA theres some pretty decent roads so a harsher ride can be tolerated, but I dont want to feel every pebbel I go over. I want a ride quality something like a Vett I guess, hard, stiff but not crazy. Since it is a daily driver.

But I also want it to seriously out handel these other cars, the main cars I "fear" far as in the twisty's are stuff like 300ZX, FD, MR2 etc. No way will my 16yr old car and it's stock old broke dick suspention keep up with them in the corners. And I hate this because I love the twisty's.

So what would you guys recomend? Could you give me a reasionable setup (price wise) and then balls to the wall best setup kinda idea? I can proably spend a little more than 2,400 on the suspention but it's going to have a cap somewhere around there.

 

[Rx3]

I want the car to ride "comfortable" on smooth roads, which where I live in GA theres some pretty decent roads so a harsher ride can be tolerated, but I dont want to feel every pebbel I go over. I want a ride quality something like a Vett I guess, hard, stiff but not crazy. Since it is a daily driver.

But I also want it to seriously out handel these other cars, the main cars I "fear" far as in the twisty's are stuff like 300ZX, FD, MR2 etc. No way will my 16yr old car and it's stock old broke dick suspention keep up with them in the corners. And I hate this because I love the twisty's.

You can't have a "comfortable" ride, and then "seriously outhandle" xyz car as well. Choose one.


Are you comparing your car to stock suspension setups of the other cars, or are they modified too (which would change what you would need to do)?

A better definition of your goal would help in getting more precise advice.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

dude i can tell you that it would take a miracle to get your car to hit turns with an R1 FD. Those things with even stock suspension are just stupid tight when it comes to handling. You need to go into the nitty gritty like bushings, mounts, coilovers, bars etc to even think about it. You want to mess with him then hit him from the line but i can tell you from experience that if you are hitting the twisties you are hosed.

 

[Turbo Shogun]

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

It's all in the driving.

 

[SAKONE]

Driving skill.

Practice. Practice. Practice.

 

[RipperXX]

I have had the car since I was 16, im 21... And I drive agressively ALOT on twisty roads..


RX3 I said the RX-7 is stock, all I want my dsm to do is be capible of out handling a STOCK R1 RX-7... And yes I know how well they handel because I have been in more than his. And I love the way they drive, I just hate there engines/power band

Now I'm aware that it will take about everything you can buy far as bolt on parts to get the dsm to that lvl, and then take some tweaking and seat time. Thats not a problem. My two main questions here are simple.

Can a 1990 AWD TSi's suspention be upgreaded to the point it is capible of out handeling or at the very least handeling as well as a RX-7 R1?

And question two to the more experienced people here what would I need to do this?



The DSM is my project car and has been my daily driver for some time, but recently I have been considering getting a daily driver and getting more serious about the DSM, it's that or well you ever hear the saying "if you can't beat them, join them" Buying a R1 FD3s and swaping in a LS1. The main advantage being it would be reliable as any normal car, and plenty fast and handel about as well as the stock R1.


So my choice henges on these questions, can it do it, and what do I need to do it.

 

[92tealTSI]

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

It's all in the driving.

heh you beat me to it
Im not sure if he means to do better in a competitve event or just to make the car feel similar to the RX7. It sounds like he wants something with power on oversteer and nearly neutral off power. Ill say right now getting an AWD DSM to demonstrate power on oversteer without purposefully upsetting the suspension is going to cost alot of money. You could always bump up the rear springrates very stiff and get a RM rear bar but that will make your car ride like shit. What are you trying to do with the car?

 

[Turbo Shogun]

... So my choice henges on these questions, can it do it, and what do I need to do it.

Yes, it can do it. There are a number of DSM's that have run 1G+ on the skidpad.

As for parts, that's something subjective. There a myriad number of ways you can approach this. You can go with Koni yellows and custom spring rates, or go balls-out with dual-adjustable dampers. You would also need a good set of stabilizer (sway)bars. Getting your car to ride comfortably on the street whilst getting extremely high performance is another story. Cost-effectiveness can be somewhat of a factor too, if you're on a budget.

A big part of it will be adequately sticky tires in an appropriately wide size. You may also want to think about eliminating the dynamic toe bushing in the rear trailing arm.

But it isn't just a matter of slapping parts on. You need to do things like cornerweighting, aligning and strategic weight reduction in key areas to maximize the handling of any car. Just like an engine, the performance of any good suspension setup lies in the tuning, and the hours spent perfecting it all on the circuit.

 

[turbo8765]

You can definitely make your car handle with an FD.

How much of your suspension is original?? You'll notice a huge improvement simply switching from the old worn out rubber bushings to urethane.

With research you can build a setup that will apeal to your style of driving....but even if you want to go relatively cheap you'll compare well i.e. ground control coilovers, full urethane, 16 x 8's with sticky tires, rear sway bar, weight reduction (try to shift the weight distribution as much as possible) and an agressive alignment w/ corner balancing.

As state above, the most important factor is your skill level. Do as many auto-x and HPDE as possibe.

 

[ACM]

A basic package for this would be Jtoby's Koni-based coilover setup, RM racing anti-roll bars (with one adjustable end-link each), camber adjusters in the front (I'm currently leaning towards Spec Prods new upper front arms to get both camber and caster), spacers to reduce the rear camber, and I think that should do it. Now all you need are wheels, tyres, and brakes...

Roll the rear wheel arches, use 17x8 or 9 rims, tyre size is 245/40 or 245/45 (except 245/45 RT-615s I believe), pick your preferred balance of wet vs dry compromise. Brakes you'll want something like the front and rear big rotor kits and decent pads (R4S or similar).

Now you actually have to learn to drive it and dial it in. Start at autocross events, dial it in conservatively there, then take yourselves to a few road course HPD events. This will help get both of you sorted out and comfortable with each other. By starting at autocross, any driver/setup errors result in minor embarrassment and tyre smoke. Errors at the track are a little more expensive.

 

[suicidal2af]

A basic package for this would be Jtoby's Koni-based coilover setup, RM racing anti-roll bars (with one adjustable end-link each), camber adjusters in the front (I'm currently leaning towards Spec Prods new upper front arms to get both camber and caster), spacers to reduce the rear camber, and I think that should do it. Now all you need are wheels, tyres, and brakes...

Roll the rear wheel arches, use 17x8 or 9 rims, tyre size is 245/40 or 245/45 (except 245/45 RT-615s I believe), pick your preferred balance of wet vs dry compromise. Brakes you'll want something like the front and rear big rotor kits and decent pads (R4S or similar).

Now you actually have to learn to drive it and dial it in. Start at autocross events, dial it in conservatively there, then take yourselves to a few road course HPD events. This will help get both of you sorted out and comfortable with each other. By starting at autocross, any driver/setup errors result in minor embarrassment and tyre smoke. Errors at the track are a little more expensive.

Just a minor correction, Jtoby never marketed a Koni-based coilover setup. DG did that, and they sold approximately 3 sets of them so that's been pulled. It was also 2G-only.

Start here: Buy a good, extremely light set of 18x10's. Something along the lines of Enkei RPF1's. Get some absurdly sticky tires, maybe an R-compound. 285/30R18 is the size you'd want. Corner weight your car. This will allow you to choose your springrates. Replace every bushing in your suspension with urethane bushings.

There's a hole bunch more involved, but that'll get ya started.

Or, if you want the easy way out, Dennis Grant's car is still for sale. That shouldn't have too much trouble against a stock FD.

 

[ACM]

I never suggested Jtoby sold them. He did however detail exactly what parts to buy and where to buy them from, as opposed to DG's setup which is no longer available.

I run the tyres you mention - they require extensive front fender mods and an exceptional suspension setup - they are definitely not the place to start, more the icing on the cake. Neither Dennis' nor my car are safe to use as road cars, and that size/type of tyre are no small part of that reason.

Charles

 

[RipperXX]

Sorry i have been on the road in Iraq, and have not been able to keep up to date with this thread, pretty much IF a comfortable rather smooth (not feeling every pebble in the road) type ride can be had and have the car act like how I want. (92tealtsi) <-- pretty much said it, thats what im looking for.

Then i'll be willing to spend a large sum of money to get there, but it does depend on how much, because well if I can get a RX-7 and do the LS1 swap for X amount and the DSM takes Y amount then screw it I'll just go the RX-7 route.

However I still want my DSM to handle like I have stated so it's going to get to that point wither it's now or 3yrs from now.

Theres been alot of useable info on setups here thanks, keep it comeing though.




But things I know im going to do for a fact are.

DSS Toe elem kit
17x8 As light as possible
Proably go with Kumho Supra (they still make them right? ) tires
and replace some bushings with Urathane, others with new OEM... as I thinka full urathane setup would yes help handeling but also make the ride rougher.

Im still clueless as to the rest of it.. obveously a giant rear sway bar.. but I mean far as coil overs.. or strut/spring setup which I doubt will give me the result im looking for.

 

[suicidal2af]

Proably go with Kumho Supra (they still make them right? )

If you want to outhandle anything, Kumho Supra 711/712's aren't the tire to choose. They are, to put it mildly, horrible.

Azenis RT615's would be a good choice.

A giant rear swaybar will just make the rear end loose. You're sacrificing rear traction to get it to rotate, which will make it a little worse. You want to make both ends stick.

You'll want a coilover setup. GC/Koni is a good way to go, but you won't know what springrates to use unless you cornerweight your car.

Replace almost all of the suspension bushings with urethane bushings.

Honestly, though, an FD with a decent set of tires will probably still outhandle you.

 

[RipperXX]

Well I only thought of the Kumho Supra's cause there affordable and seem to do decent on my friends 300ZX... but again stock for stock thats a much better handeling car too.

Azenis RT615's huh, i'll have to give them a look.

As for the bushings, could any of you tell me which ones are the most important to change to urathane, and which ones dont really make much of a diference?

 

[jtmcinder]

The most important bushing for handling (and, please, learn to spell that word) are the two on the inboard end of your front control arm. (This is also true for 2Gs, although we have only one and, in this case, I must specify that it's the lower front control arm.) The squish of these bushings cost you camber in hard turns. And, given that you have a 1G, you cannot afford to lose any front camber.

You will need camber/caster plates before you are done. You want as much caster as you can get while also having 2 degrees (or more) of front camber.

Rear suspension (other than spring rates and sway bar) are not really critical. You need to get the nose to turn. A front helical diff would also be useful, but goes beyond your budget.

- Jtoby

ps. Suicidal - why don't you take up your issues with me in a PM?

pps. ACM - my system (of course) is for 2Gs; this thread is (mostly) about 1Gs

 

[stirpicult]

since it seems that i will be the first with a 1g to respond...here is what i would get....
some sort of coilovers (i am rocking ground controls 400/350 with konis all around and the struts shortened)
rear sway bar
rear toe eliminator kit
ingalls rear control arm (to adjust camber out back)
some sort of camber/caster plate up front (i have ground control for this as well)
17x8 wheels (18x10 would NEVER fit or look right on a 1g)
245/40 series tires

i did all that minus the sway bar for just under 2400.

then i would move the battery to the back and put the car on a diet.

good luck.

 

[suicidal2af]

ps. Suicidal - why don't you take up your issues with me in a PM?

Not sure where you got the impression that I have issues with you. I incorrectly assumed he was speaking of the suspension-kit-in-a-box setup that DG was selling.

 

[ACM]

- Jtoby

pps. ACM - my system (of course) is for 2Gs; this thread is (mostly) about 1Gs

1G ?!?
Oh poo - did I just brain fart again ? Apologies.
Ignore everything I said, I'm a moron...

I just returned from day 2 of the local Ford clubs' autocross weekend. I opted to miss that last run or two both days. Wuss ? Perhaps, but I zeroed my trip this morning - after 6 runs I had covered 13.2 miles...There isn't a muscle or joint in my whole body that doesn't hurt, my V710s wore like unrolling a roll of duct tape. Incredible. I had ~60 runs on them before this weekend and they looked barely worn - after this weekend they're past the wear bars and then some, they look like they've done a track day !

I averaged about 2mpg for the weekend

Charles

 

[suicidal2af]

rear sway bar

Running just a rear bar sacrifices traction to get the rear to rotate. Stick the car in the front, don't unstick the rear.

17x8 wheels (18x10 would NEVER fit or look right on a 1g)

With enough work it would fit. The topic at hand was handling, not winning shows, so toss the 'look right' out the window.

then i would move the battery to the back and put the car on a diet.

Good advice on that point.

The problem with this question is that you're comparing cars that are in a COMPLETELY different league. In stock form, 1G's pull ~.81-.83 on a 200ft skidpad. A stock 93.5 RX7 pulled a .94 in C&D tests, and a .98 in Motortrend's tests. That's a *huge* gap to cover. Also keep in mind that's in a steadystate turn. When you start throwing transitions and slaloms, the dsm's abhorrent weight distribution is going to hurt it even more.

 

[ACM]

The problem with DSMs is that with a 60:40 weight distribution you will always run out of front grip first - aside from full throttle in a 400bhp+ car of course

This is the battle I wage with my T25'd 250bhp. There comes a point where there simply isn't any more front grip to be had, and at that moment you will still have much more grip in the rear (assuming same size tyres). So now you resort to high tyre pressures, high rear roll centre, big rear anti-roll bar, narrow rear tyres - you have to do something to balance the car...

There is another way to look at it though - you can simply consider that rather than a paucity of front grip, you actually have an over-abundence of rear gip Then you won't feel so bad about compromising the rear end...

At the end of the day however, balance is more important than absolute grip, unless your name is Walter Rohl.

Charles

 

[RipperXX]

Well I plan on haveing about 380whp when Im done off of a Evo III 16g so it wont be that laggy.

But far as balance then, your saying I should remove as much weight as I can from the front of the car, move the battery to the rear, stiffer rear sway bar, and crappier rear tires with sticky ones in the front?




So basicly set it up like......a FWD? Isn't there some way to get more power to the rear than the front to help compensate for the crapy weight balance and get it to turn? Or will the front still have crap for grip and then just more rotation in the ass?

 

[jtmcinder]

Isn't there some way to get more power to the rear than the front to help compensate for the crapy weight balance and get it to turn?

Cusco Tarmac diff is 35/65 (not that ACM would know about this), but that won't do anything for turn-in (other than cause less grief than some sort of two-way.

- Jtoby

 

[stirpicult]

Running just a rear bar sacrifices traction to get the rear to rotate. Stick the car in the front, don't unstick the rear.



With enough work it would fit. The topic at hand was handling, not winning shows, so toss the 'look right' out the window.

an aftermarket rear sway bar coupled with the stock bar in the front is a proven suspension mod on 1g AWDs. with its suspension limitations, it is a worthwhile mod.
how you can argue with this is beyond me...
http://www.wincom.net/trog/autocross/1G_SM.html

with enough work anything would fit. however the cost of it would not be worth it to me. and the topic at hand is handling, but they guy is talking about driving on roads, so be realistic. an 18x10 wheel is not a good investment on a street driven 1g. the amount of work needed to make it fit would pretty much make it useless as a street car (and he says streets of ga, so he still drives it there) or would require some crazy widebody kit, at which point is it a show car or a track car or a street car or bits of both? so the fact its street driven and he has a monetary cap of $2400, suggesting 18x10 was worthless. the wheels alone would cost more.

if you want to talk just winning races, there is a whole lot more i would do to make a racecar.

 

[ACM]

Cusco Tarmac diff is 35/65 (not that ACM would know about this), but that won't do anything for turn-in (other than cause less grief than some sort of two-way.

- Jtoby

That depends - if you go in off-throttle then no it won't, but if you go in under +ve throttle then it has the effect of reducing the power to the front compared to the stock diff, so allowing more of the tyre's potential grip to be used laterally - so in effect it does improve turn-in, so long as you're committed And if you have a Quaife front then you better be committed unless you intend to do some lawn mowing

Charles