SPC ADJUSTABLE BALLJOINT ?'s

[Strm Trpr]

I've searched on this, but since the migration the search utility is laggin.
I have a couple questions.
1. Is anyone on here running them?
2. What are your thoughts on them?
3. Did you have any problems with the camber coming out of spec due to normal daily driving?
4. Are there any clearance issues with the upper control arm hitting the chassis or body when lowered approximatley 1.9" in front?
5. It is also my understanding that these balljoints are designed to take out negative camber, i.e., +1* - +3*.
I guess you could install them backwards and get nothing but negative camber out of them that way.
My aligned camber lowered is -1.5* -1.2* or vice-versa.

The balljoints appear to increase the distance from the upper control arm to the knuckle joint.
Are there any ill side effects from this increased distance, or do they work like a charm?
I've read on here somewhere that someone used these balljoints in conjunction with SPC's 1.5* anchor bolts for a total of +/- 4* camber adjustment.
Hopefully that person will chime in and give us a good explanation of this issue.
Thanks for the space...

 

[Rx3]

I've searched on this, but since the migration the search utility is laggin.
I have a couple questions.
1. Is anyone on here running them? ...

Yep

2. What are your thoughts on them?...

I've only driven on them for about 4 months, and that was daily driving. So far, they are excellent. I like having the adjustability, and that will come into play in the spring when I (hopefully) start autocross season/track day season.

3. Did you have any problems with the camber coming out of spec due to normal daily driving?...

No (at least not yet). As long as you properly torque the nut, you shouldn't run into a problem. I've hit many potholes around town, and my alignment hasn't gone out of whack.

4. Are there any clearance issues with the upper control arm hitting the chassis or body when lowered approximatley 1.9" in front? ...

WTF 1.9 inches...... I never tried lowering it that far. I know it cleared just fine at 1.75" or so. I am running at 1.5 or so myself. I have the car apart (again), if time permits maybe I'll try some experiments and see. I have a 97, and the wheel well has plenty of space. I don't think there should be any problems clearing because as you slam the car down, the arm can only move so much. Any particular reason why you are going to run so low?

5. It is also my understanding that these balljoints are designed to take out negative camber, i.e., +1* - +3*.

I guess you could install them backwards and get nothing but negative camber out of them that way.
My aligned camber lowered is -1.5* -1.2* or vice-versa. ...

They are made to be reversed. I see that you read my tech article, it's pretty self explanatory. The instructions that come with the balljoint also describe reversing as necessary

The balljoints appear to increase the distance from the upper control arm to the knuckle joint.
Are there any ill side effects from this increased distance, or do they work like a charm?
I've read on here somewhere that someone used these balljoints in conjunction with SPC's 1.5* anchor bolts for a total of +/- 4* camber adjustment.
Hopefully that person will chime in and give us a good explanation of this issue.
Thanks for the space...

They've worked like a charm for me, I haven't noticed any ill effects at all. The diagram you posted slightly exaggerates the spacing between the knuckle and the control arm. There is slighty more space, but it's not really significant.

 

[Strm Trpr]

Well, not sure exactly how low I am, I just installed Tein Type Flex's which BTW and the drop is 13.5" from the bottom of the fender to the center of the spindle on all 4 corners.
Not sure if that translates into 1.9" drop in front or not, didn't measure it before I dropped it.
Thanks for the info, you've answered pretty much all my questions.
I really don't mind the camber I'm running right now.
The fronts are at -1.2* & -1.5*
The rears are at -2.5* & -2.7*.
I wouldn't lower it any further though.
As it is it doesn't scrape even with 3" exhaust.

Thanks again Rx3, I'll be sure to hit up your Tech Article....

 

[Rx3]

Now that you are measuring drop from center of spindle to the bottom of fender, you are a half inch lower than me (I am 14" from bottom of fender to center spindle)


I don't think you will have any clearance issues with the wheel well or chasis.

 

[ACM]

I have run them. I bent both A-arms within a week on pot holes. I did not have bottoming issues on that car until I fitted those balljoints.

I fitted new factory arms and haven't bottomed out ever since - with no suspension adjustments. Spec's new upper arms may be worth trying, I hear they don't raise the A-arm as much, and V2 of the arms doesn't hit the outer lip of the tower.

Charles

 

[Strm Trpr]

I have run them. I bent both A-arms within a week on pot holes. I did not have bottoming issues on that car until I fitted those balljoints.

I fitted new factory arms and haven't bottomed out ever since - with no suspension adjustments. Spec's new upper arms may be worth trying, I hear they don't raise the A-arm as much, and V2 of the arms doesn't hit the outer lip of the tower.

Charles

How low are you from bottom of fender to center of spindle, and what's your spring/strut set-up?

 

[ACM]

How low are you from bottom of fender to center of spindle, and what's your spring/strut set-up?

Good question, not sure on the ride height, probably 3 fingers clearance between the tyre (245/40.17 MX) and the wheelarch lip. Suspension is Shocktek Bilsteins with 700f/550r springs. The car had never bottomed out on those pot holes, ever. Soon as the balljoints went in I bottomed hard enough to bend the A-arms. Put new OEM arms in and it never bottomed again.

I suppose I could have raised the front an inch and adjusted the camber/caster back to where it had been, then see if the altered roll axis angle offended me, but instead I just went back to what worked previously

Charles

 

[Strm Trpr]

Yeah, I was kinda worried about that, hence my original questions.
I have a balljoint press, and will probably install one balljoint w/out coilovers and endlinks installed so I can articulate the suspension fully and see if there are any impact points prior to driving it.
Thanks for your input.....

 

[mujgy]

I have had them on my car for almost 2 years now and the biggest problem I'm having is the boots are drying up and cracking.

The have held their setting though, 35 miles each day on a very crappy ND highway. I will either go with the replacement A-arms or the arm mounts next time. They use to bottom out in the towers when I was running Tokico springs, however once I went to pro-kits it took care of the problem.

mujgy

 

[Strm Trpr]

Wow, thanks for the info...
This is your eleventh post in almost 3yrs....

 

[Rx3]

The boots drying and cracking has been a known issue. As long as you periodically treat them with rubber conditioner you should be fine. I think I mentioned that in my tech article as well. It's not something that would deter me from use because it is easily maintained.

 

[Strm Trpr]

I'm amusingly entertained by your profile.
So would you say that your front upper control arms don't have the interference issues these guys are talking about due to your reverse installed SPC anchor bolts?

 

[mujgy]

Wow, thanks for the info...
This is your eleventh post in almost 3yrs....

Yeah I know, I go over the forums almost everyday and for the most part I don't usually feel like responding to a lot of the threads I read. They start out decent then slip into being a flame/bs thread.

I just enjoy reading the tech articles and others experience, I post only when I have something to offer.

And back on subject, as far as the boots cracking, I was very disappointed when they started to crack about 5-6 months after I put them on. I mean really can't SPC spend a few more cents on decent rubber for these ball joints.

There may be differences in the unibody stampings or revisions to the towers themselves. It is possible that they added more clearance later on. but I know that my A-arms have rubbed in the tower and the top of the ball joints have made contact with the top of the tower.

All in all a fairly good product and they allow a good bit of adjustment, however like I said previously I plan on going with new a-arms or new mounts next time.

mujgy

 

[Strm Trpr]

Cool man, thanks for your input.
What type of rubber conditioner do you think would help maintain the integrity of the rubber boots?

 

[EclipseTrbo420A]

Not to go off topic but how come you are taking these over the normal Adjustable bushing type? I my self am going to get a front camber kit here very soon as was looking at both options.

 

[Strm Trpr]

Well, the clown at Firestone said that the anchor bolt type set-ups eat their bushing rather quickly. Then he tried selling me the adjustable balljoints for like $166 each. I think total for both camber kits was going to be $520 just for parts.
I told him, I don't think so.
I searched the net and found the exact F/R kit as a set for $285 shipped.
Now I'd say that's a pretty good savings.

 

[jim97gst]

I searched the net and found the exact F/R kit as a set for $285 shipped.
Now I'd say that's a pretty good savings.

The rear camber can be changed by YOU with $15 worth of longer bolts and some shims (washers). You can actually calculate how much camber change you'll get with X inches of shims. I did it and got the camber re-measured, and came really close.

Your front camber looks pretty good for a daily driver. I would just give it less in the rear and call it done for now. Wait until you start autocrossing before you decide if you need that front camber adjustability.

 

[Strm Trpr]

Yeah, I knew about the shims and longer screws...
I already bought the kit.
I don't plan on auto-x, but I did want to join NASA and get some training to eventually get out there with Greg Collier....
I plan on installing the balljoints in the reverse fashion like Rx3 has mentioned in his tech article so I can tune the suspension for - camber vs. taking the camber out.
The rears I will tune to -2* and be done with it.
I'll probably run the front right around -1 for DD.
Thanks for everyone's responses on this issue.

 

[Rx3]

Well, the clown at Firestone said that the anchor bolt type set-ups eat their bushing rather quickly.

Not true. I've run anchor bolts for over 3 years without the bushing ever going on my DSM, and for even longer on other cars.

Yeah, I knew about the shims and longer screws...
I already bought the kit.
I don't plan on auto-x, but I did want to join NASA and get some training to eventually get out there with Greg Collier....
I plan on installing the balljoints in the reverse fashion like Rx3 has mentioned in his tech article so I can tune the suspension for - camber vs. taking the camber out.
The rears I will tune to -2* and be done with it.
I'll probably run the front right around -1 for DD.
Thanks for everyone's responses on this issue.

Woah pardner.....

Don't go and just start dialing in negative camber like that, especially in the rear. -1 in front and -2 in the rear sounds like a recipe for disaster. Before you go buck-wild with the camber adjustments, you might want to research how they will affect the car.

Also realize, that in the rear camber and toe are a compromised setting, meaning that as you adjust one, it affects the other. You can't just dial in -2 degrees camber because your toe may be all ####ed up. How often do you plan on replacing tires?



You might want to reconsider auto-x. If anything, it is a good way to learn how the car feels and practice making adjustments to the car and then seeing how they pan out. I would also suggest reading some books on suspension and how different settings like toe, camber and caster affect the suspension. But more importantly you really need to spend more time behind the wheel learning how to drive the car before you start trying to dictate what your settings should be. Just have it setup by a shop to get as close to stock parameters as possible. Then drive it around at an autocross, or a track day if that's your thing a few times. Get the hang of driving it, then maybe you can start to change settings. A lot of things can be taken care of with better driving and tire pressure as opposed to monkeying with the suspension settings.

 

[Strm Trpr]

Yeah, I figured that guy was blowing smoke about the anchor bolts bushings wearing out.

Yeah, I realized that when the camber changes say from lowering, your toe settings also change, that's why I had it aligned the same afternoon after installing my coilovers.
I also bought lifetime alignments from Firestone, so I dialed in that department.

This weekend I am replacing the Front Upper Balljoints, installing E.S. bushings in the upper control arm anchor bolts, installing new lateral arms with E.S. bushings, and new outer tie rod ends.

In the rear, I have new rear lower control arms (the ones with the balljoints), I have new bushings for the other lower control arms both ends and finally I have a new camber kit for the upper rear control arms ready to go in.
I also plan on buying new F/R sway bar end links along with RMDSM sways.

A friend of mine drives a Cooper S and he belongs to NASA for sometime now, and is doing his thing to become an instructor.

I've always planned on paying the $150 for several a 1/2 days worth of instruction in a classroom, and then spending the other 1/2 day on the track as a passenger in my car while the instructor shows me what my car can do.

Then they let you burn a few laps with them as a passenger all the while they are taking notes and plan to give you more instruction on what you did and didn't do properly.

Thank you for setting me straight.
I enjoy the camber settings as they are now, but if you say to have them set at stock, then I guess so.
But I'll tell you this, before when my car was stock height, my car was real apt to oversteer in the corners, but now that there's a little bit of camber back there, the rear end sticks really well, and I've never encountered understeer in my car at all.

Can you reccommend any good reading suspension books that I can take a look at?

Thanks for all of your guy's input....

 

[Rx3]

This weekend I am replacing the Front Upper Balljoints, installing E.S. bushings in the upper control arm anchor bolts, installing new lateral arms with E.S. bushings, and new outer tie rod ends.

In the rear, I have new rear lower control arms (the ones with the balljoints), I have new bushings for the other lower control arms both ends and finally I have a new camber kit for the upper rear control arms ready to go in.
I also plan on buying new F/R sway bar end links along with RMDSM sways.

Well then that means you need to get another alignment immediately after installing all that stuff. Good thing you got that lifetime alignment thing.

I enjoy the camber settings as they are now, but if you say to have them set at stock, then I guess so.
But I'll tell you this, before when my car was stock height, my car was real apt to oversteer in the corners, but now that there's a little bit of camber back there, the rear end sticks really well, and I've never encountered understeer in my car at all.

Can you reccommend any good reading suspension books that I can take a look at?

Thanks for all of your guy's input....

The camber settings as they are now are probably with you daily driving the car. The feel will change drastically when you are at speed on a track.


Good books for suspension:

"How To Make Your Car Handle", by Fred Puhn

"Tune to Win" & "Prepare to Win", by Carroll Smith

"Tires, Suspension, and Handling" , by John C. Dixon

 

[Strm Trpr]

Yeah, I have an appointment at 1:30 on Sunday to get her dialed in.

Those lifetime alignments are pretty killer, they are usually $149, but since I opened an account with Firestone, they took 10% off of that price, then since the lifetime alignment was on sale that day, they took $20 more off of that price.

A 1 time 4 wheel alignment costs $65 bones, get 2 done, and you're up to the price of a lifetime alignment.
This will be my 4th aligment in about a year.

Yeah, those settings are daily driven 100miles each day round trip.
A lot of freeway miles, and some pretty killer single lane twistys thru the hills into the Livermore Valley....

Thanks for the list, I'll hit up my local Library and see what I can see.

 

[jim97gst]

Strm Trpr, one "catch" I've heard about those Firestone lifetime alignments, is that when you bring the car in, they'll say, "suspension part X is worn out and needs to be replaced in order for us to do the alignment". So then they make money by selling you those parts. I don't know if there's any truth to that, so I'd be curious to know how it goes for you. I guess it depends on how shady the guy running the particular shop is.

I guess for most "normal" people, they rarely get a realignment done, and then when they get you in there, they're selling you oil changes, air filters, spark plugs, and the like. Unless a bushing really did wear out, or you hit something with your car, it probably doesn't even need an alignment. They may start to hate guys like you who are raising and lowering the car every week, or just asking for adjustments to try them out on the track.

 

[Strm Trpr]

Well, if they try and sell me anything, which I don't think they will cause everything in my suspension except for end links and compression arms will be brand new....

No one will work on my car other than me unless it's something I can't do, like alignments.
I've bought air tools, and 25 gallon compressor, 4 jack stands, special tools to do the T-Belt, all kinds of other stuff to get the job done at home....

I've read too many horror stories about someone taking their car to a reputable mechanic, and when they get it back, the T-Belt jumped time, and your head is wasted, got $1500 for a R & R, not gonna happen to this guy....

Thanks for all of your help guys.... on!

 

[baxsom]

i have these ball joints sitting on my worktable

just tackled the rear camber first

i dont have a ball joint press so i am not sure how i am going to get these things in

is that something that you can rent from autozone?