Sway Bars: Options ?

[sweet97]

I have seen suspension techniques and the rer rear bar, are there any others? I heard with suspension's bars their bar goes on front along WITH the original,is this correct? I've got 17"x7.5" wheels but that's it. Oh I bought strut tower bars, probably just for looks, huh?
Well like my title I am looking first for sway bars but am coming up with just 2 choices so I posted in case there is something I did not find!? Mark

 

[AWDspoOLiN]

RRE might build you an adjustable rear ARB if you ask them nicely. I doubt you're in a position to need an aftermarket ARB up front.

 

[90AWDTalon]

I doubt you're in a position to need an aftermarket ARB up front.

I wouldn't recommend running just the rear bar. I recently installed front and rear Suspension Techniques sway bars. I did the rear one day and the front the next. The car felt and handled like shit with just the rear bar. Very very unbalance, the front and rear felt disconnected from each other. The car handles better and feels alot more balanced with both bars.

 

[WombatTSi]

I have just the ST rear bar in my 1g, and I love it. I have driven cars with both, but it just seems to under steer, which Im trying to bandaid with just the rear bar. with only the rear bar its fairly neutral, with just a the slightest bit of oversteer under hard accel at the limit. The disconnected feeling may be because of the worn out rubber bushings, vs the poly replacments.

thats just my $.02

 

[Dauntless]

I bought strut tower bars, probably just for looks, huh?

Depends on your driving. If you drive exclusively on the street or drag race, they probably won't do much for you. If you live for curvy 2-lane roads, then you will see a marked mid-corner improvement. The strut braces don't really affect roll, but by stiffening the chassis they help eliminate that mid-corner chatter when the tires are near their maximum side load capacity. Pretty much the same applies for anti-roll bars. They don't do much for normal driving, and are a big handicap for drag racing, but again they are a big help if your idea of fun is a track day or canyon carving.

 

[90AWDTalon]

I have just the ST rear bar in my 1g, and I love it. I have driven cars with both, but it just seems to under steer, which Im trying to bandaid with just the rear bar. with only the rear bar its fairly neutral, with just a the slightest bit of oversteer under hard accel at the limit. The disconnected feeling may be because of the worn out rubber bushings, vs the poly replacments.

thats just my $.02

The reason DSM's understeer is the front suspension and differential. By installing only a rear bar you are doing nothing for the end of the car that needs help, all you are doing is reducing grip in the rear of the car, your not doing anything to improve the grip up front where it is needed. I've found that I have far less understeer with both bars. If you don't believe me come to an autocross, I see you are from the same area, there are quit a few local events. Check out www.wwscc.org. Plus it would be nice to see another DSM, I'm the only 1G that regularly attends.

 

[AL92]

I am thinking of those st bars almost ordered set few days ago.Will they really hurt my drag times and 60fts? Anyone getting good 60fts with them?
Also how hard is that front bar to get on.Do you need to pull the tranny and axles and stuff.I am going to be installing my sbr 3500 soon and figure that would be a good time to do the front sway bar.? Or is it not that bad to install?

 

[DSM PERFORMANCE]

Hi Mark ! As you know I loved my ST front & rear. It's now a well balanced, easy to control, predictable, very neutral.

Al2 : it's not too bad to install a front... and btw I have SBR HD 4000 and it's great too.

 

[98spydert]

The reason DSM's understeer is the front suspension and differential. By installing only a rear bar you are doing nothing for the end of the car that needs help, all you are doing is reducing grip in the rear of the car, your not doing anything to improve the grip up front where it is needed.

Quoting JTMcinder when I made the same exact assumption:

Edit: I'll go ahead and post the entire post along with mine because it was good information. This is from the DSMLink forums:

2Gs tend to get onto the bump stops on hard corners which generates understeer. An upgraded front bar will reduce understeer. The rear bar alone will do next to nothing to keep the car off of the front bump stops.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


replied to by jtmcinder:
"That is simply not true. The only way for it to be true that adding rear roll resistance has no effect on front-end roll is for the car to have zero torsional stiffness. While I'm quite aware that 2Gs (especially with sunroofs) are soggy, the torsional stiffness is not zero.

The key problem with stock-2G handling is - as you said - the bottoming out of the outside front. The second problem is very much related to this: you lose too much outside front camber in roll. Therefore, anything that you do to add roll resistance will help. Up the front bar ... up the rear bar ... up the springs ... it really does not matter what you do. Just get the car flat by increasing the total roll resistance.

Once you have gotten off the bumpstops and have some control of your outside front camber, you can start to tune the car by shifting weight transfer from front to back (or v.v.). But starting to tune in terms of front vs rear bar is, IMO, a waste of time until you have dealt with the basic problem: too little total roll resistance."

 

[mach1one]

The reason DSM's understeer is the front suspension and differential. By installing only a rear bar you are doing nothing for the end of the car that needs help, all you are doing is reducing grip in the rear of the car, your not doing anything to improve the grip up front where it is needed. I've found that I have far less understeer with both bars.

If you decrease the grip in the rear, the rear end should start to be more neutral, as the rearend will start to lose traction (or lose traction at the same time as) before the front. When the car understeers, the front is losing traction first. By putting a rear swaybar on, the rear would hopefully lose traction earlier (or at the same time) than the front for a slight oversteer feeling, and keep the weight from shifting so much that the front end wants to plow into every corner. A beefier front sway along w/ a beefier rear will get you back to understeer, not neutral; as both ends are now stiffer.


I could be wrong, don't take what I"m saying as 100%. I'm still learning all this, and if I am wrong I'd like to know.

 

[98spydert]

You'd be right IF the car handled right in the first place and didn't bottom out so easily onto the front bump stops. If you had the right suspension set up where a sharp turn wouldn't set the front of the car on the bump stops, you could attack the understeer problem in a traditional manner.

BTW, I'm talking 2Gs here because the original topic was fixing a 2Gs understeer. Just thought I'd clarify.

 

[mach1one]

The guy should fix his bumpsteer problem with something other than a front swaybar. Once his susp. is setup better where the car doesnt, he's stuck w/ understeer bc of the big frnt arb.

 

[90AWDTalon]

You'd be right IF the car handled right in the first place and didn't bottom out so easily onto the front bump stops. If you had the right suspension set up where a sharp turn wouldn't set the front of the car on the bump stops, you could attack the understeer problem in a traditional manner.

BTW, I'm talking 2Gs here because the original topic was fixing a 2Gs understeer. Just thought I'd clarify.

sweet97 has a 1G listed as his car. 1G's and 2G's are totally different and can't be comepared to each other. My response was assumming that he was asking about a 1G.

 

[WombatTSi]

The reason DSM's understeer is the front suspension and differential. By installing only a rear bar you are doing nothing for the end of the car that needs help, all you are doing is reducing grip in the rear of the car, your not doing anything to improve the grip up front where it is needed. I've found that I have far less understeer with both bars. If you don't believe me come to an autocross, I see you are from the same area, there are quit a few local events. Check out www.wwscc.org. Plus it would be nice to see another DSM, I'm the only 1G that regularly attends.

Yes you are right about fixing the wrong end of the problem, I understand this, but as a simple (and cheap at only about $150) band-aid, you can negate a lot of the understeer by reducing the rear grip via the sway bar; while its not ideal, it does work. Eventually I plan on getting some Coilovers with proper spring rates, to dial in the cars oversteer in a less ghetto fabulous way, and then install the front bar to bring it back to neutral. Im not much of a cone dodger, but I may show up to one or 2 of those events, just for fun

 

[90AWDTalon]

If you decrease the grip in the rear, the rear end should start to be more neutral, as the rearend will start to lose traction (or lose traction at the same time as) before the front.

Your loosing traction, not gaining any with this method.

I could be wrong, don't take what I"m saying as 100%. I'm still learning all this, and if I am wrong I'd like to know.

I too can't say with 100% certainty that what I am saying is 100% correct, I don't think anyone on this forum could, and I'm sure some know more than I. But I'm on my third year of autocrossing this car, I feel I have a pretty good understanding of how different setups affect my car. I've done a fair amount of reading on this subject in magazines and on the internet, I am currently reading, "How to Make Your Car Handle", by Fred Puhn, I've just started it and haven't gotten to anything about swaybars yet.

 

[mach1one]

Right, I didn't say you were gaining any traction, just that the rearend will start to lose grip earlier. Like you said, not really a good fix, but decent.

That book is good stuff Just skip ahead to the swaybar section, he's pretty adamant about not running a thick front arb on fwd (transvere engine type) cars.

 

[sweet97]

I want to improve cornering. I am more confused than when I started the thread!! Mark

 

[98spydert]

sweet97 has a 1G listed as his car. 1G's and 2G's are totally different and can't be comepared to each other. My response was assumming that he was asking about a 1G.

haha I'm sorry. I thought sweet97 meant '97, I didn't even look

 

[sweet97]

haha I'm sorry. I thought sweet97 meant '97, I didn't even look

I was looking at a '97 Spyder when I joined tuners but got a '93AWD! No problem. Still need help handling. Mark

 

[DSM PERFORMANCE]

Hey Mark, did you received the Nabr link I've sent to you by mail ?

 

[sweet97]

NO link Eric!

 

[mach1one]

Still need help handling. Mark

start by buying better tires, then a rear swaybar.

 

[sweet97]

I've done tires and wheels. I am looking for info on swaybars but there seems to be a conflict on which approach is best!!

 

[truwarrior]

http://www.tsimportedautomotive.com/Swabarra.ht

Found this link. Might help you deside what to get. Anyone know the stock diameter of a 2G FWD swaybars?

 

[verserv]

Or you could by a set of RMDSM sway bars. Now those are a nice set.