terrible understeer.......

[14.5 drift]

Last night my friend crashed into a mountain side on our way home from a party in (my old) his new 240sx. He was going too fast and he ruined his brand new s15 drift front end but his speed wasn't the whole story. The car was mine, he bought it last week (a cried a lil when I saw what he did to my old baby). Any way, back when I had the car it had horrible understeer. Like when i would come up to a light to flip a U turn, I would turn the wheel and stab the throttle but the front tires would slide like a sled (pfffft, I thought 240's were drift cars?) . Some times when I was in those tight mountain side twisties, like the ones where it turns sharp like an S turn, (like the one we crashed on) the front tires would just slide, as a result we slid nose first off the road into the side of a hill

The suspension is completely stock, struts are stock, and the allignment and camber were perfect to oem spec. Prior to the accident i asked about this on a different site and they would tell me it was driver error, most other people with the car aren't having this problem, just me and a small few of others, so I dont really know what to do to fix. This site has much better guys in the suspension department though

I remember reading some where to just throw a stiffer spring in the back, or a softer spring in the front and vice versa to compensate for under steer but I dunno, I'm runnin out of ideas

If any one might have some idea's, would be very much appreciated. The car is back to the shop but I dont want this to happen again.


I also made another thread about on the NICO boards if any ones interested

Thanks in advance

 

[jtmcinder]

Any way, back when I had the car it had horrible understeer. Like when i would come up to a light to flip a U turn, I would turn the wheel and stab the throttle but the front tires would slide like a sled.

Almost any car with powered front wheels will understeer under these conditions. Do a search (or Google) for "traction circle."

I'm sorry about your ex-car. I hope that "merely" losing money doesn't weaken the lesson.

- Jtoby

 

[14.5 drift]

240sx=rwd

 

[greenmachine97]

The suspension is completely stock, struts are stock, and the allignment and camber were perfect to oem spec. Prior to the accident i asked about this on a different site and they would tell me it was driver error, most other people with the car aren't having this problem, just me and a small few of others, so I dont really know what to do to fix. This site has much better guys in the suspension department though


Thanks in advance

WOW! So you have an underpowered RWD car, with factory suspension and expect it to never understeer. C'mon man. If you seriously think you had a drift car with no aftermarket suspension, you are confused. Sorry for the flaming.
Ok, so here is the deal. Any car will understeer, there is no way around it. The first thing that you will need to do in order to setup a car with the idea to drift it is an LSD, this will not help understeer much, but it is crucial in order to slide a car properly. people will argue with me, but if you are serious about it, a quality LSD is a must. then you must setup your suspension properly:

1) Replace the shocks and springs with a proven Japanese coilover setup, ie Tein HE, JIC Magic Flt-a2, Apexi Sport damper, HKS Hipermax Tanabe Sustec PRo or any TODA or ENDLESS Zeal suspension system. Or you could opt to go a cheaper route and get a set of adjustable Koni Yellow shocks with h&r or RS-R race springs. That will lower the cars center of gravity and stiffen up all four corners, so that they wont flex and create understeer.

2) Get a quality set of front and rear strut tower braces. Such as, Cusco, Tanabe, Apexi, GREX etc. Try to stay away from the 9 dollar ebay ones, from my experience they flex way to much for a drift car.

3) A Quality pair of front and rear sway bars, preferabley adjustable, will be one of the final steps in eliminating understeer. You can adjust them to react however you want. You can set them to understeer, or oversteer. This will help immensly. My personal choices would be Cusco or Tanabe. This mod will be a vast improvement.

4) Tires, i cant emphasize this enough. Alot of people will over look this. But tires are the only thing that is holding the car to the ground. So it would be vital to have a quality pair of tires. At least up front, you will want to get some very grippy performance tires such as: Yokohama Parada spec2 or Falken Azenis sport. But if you want to have a competion tire, with fast treadwear, look into some yokohama a032r tires, or Hoosier a3s03. Those are unbelievable. And since you still have the Ka24de, i would just put some all weather long lasting tires in back. You dont want to run any bigger than a 17" rim though. I would stick to a 16" to be honest.

5) Brakes, another thing commonly looked over by many tuners. You can simply upgrade rotors to powerslot or brembo, and pads to endless or AXXIS. But to get the most performance out of your brakes for downhill runs, get an Endless or Rotora upgrade kit, this comes with SS lines, larger rotors, and quad piston calipers.

6) Proper driving technique is crucial, you must learn to feel the car, and learn how to correct it. WIth an underpowerd car, you must learn how to transfer the weigt properly as to snap the back end out, before the front loses traction. And if you begin to feel understeer coming, put the clutch in, pull the ebrake, then downshift into 2nd, and give it full throttle. if down properly, the back end will come around and you will have to correct it ith counter steering. this is what drifting is. Controlled oversteer.

If i had your car, and a good amount of money, this is the exact suspension system that i would run.
*Cusco 1.5way LSD
1) JIC Magic FLT-A2 adjustable coilover suspension system.(cant even compare to stock)
2)NISMO front and rear strut tower braces.
3)Cusco front and rear sway bars. (huge improvement)
4)Falken azenis sport tires up front, 225/45/16. and some 235/40/16 tires in the rear.
5)ENDLESS big brake upgrade.
6)Buy the DVD called: "The Drift Bible" and watch it...12 times. Then study it, and practice the taught techniques. This DVD is amazing, if you apply it properly it will help you tremendously in your driving ability.

Then as you become a better driver, you can upgrade your tie rods and ends. then you can get adjustable control arms, and setup your suspension exactly the way you want it. other parts you can get at any given time are, ladder bars, cross bars, floor bars, and NISMO power braces. Good luck with your car, and dont worry about body damage on drift cars. you are going to crash, no way around it, just learn to deal with it, and dont put s15 front ends on a drift car, until you are a great driver and are confident to never slide off the road. which will never happen, the best drivers of japan, the ones who pretty much inveneted the concept, still lose control almost daily. it is just the nature of the beast. Good luck and have fun. if you have any other questions, you can either PM me or just reply in this thread.

 

[14.5 drift]

ha ha, I was just being fisicious with that comment, I dont want a drift car, . Just to fix the oversteer.

I have been in other underpowered rwd cars such as the miata, but no such problem, an old broken 87 5.0 mustang (trust me, my stock 240 has more power) but still no such problems, also a my moms S2000, I know it has good top end, but nothing down low. When I do the same thing in her car, turn the wheel and punch the gas, the car just turns it doesn't even break the tires, both my moms car and the 240 are on ecsta's.

I dunno, it just doesn't wanna grip in the front. :shrug:

 

[greenmachine97]

well depending on the chasis, is it an s13 or s14. I bet it is an s13, 89-93, because those are famous for having understeer problems. and a miata has a much better power to weight ratio than a 240sx, and it also has a much shorter wheel base. The mustang has almost 50/50 weight distribution, and sure as shit has more torque. and the s2000 is an amazing chasis, so that in no way is comparable.
A cheap way to fix it would be to just get an eibach prokit(lowering springs)$200, a pair of front and rear ebay brand strut tower bars $40, and a pair of suspension technique sway bars $248. So now for under 500 bucks you can have a car that is much less prone to understeer. and when you can afford a little bit more, get some tokico premium shocks, $235. that will be cheap and help you out alot. good luck, and let me know what you think. but regardless, get the drift bible and watch that.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

what size tires do you have in the front and rear? From a tire aspect when a rwd or fwd car understeers its because the front wheels give up before the rear wheels have a chance.If you had smaller tires on the front or a less sticky compund this would happen.
Andrew

 

[14.5 drift]

well depending on the chasis, is it an s13 or s14. I bet it is an s13, 89-93, because those are famous for having understeer problems.

it's a 96

and a miata has a much better power to weight ratio than a 240sx, and it also has a much shorter wheel base. The mustang has almost 50/50 weight distribution, and sure as shit has more torque.

You know what I'm saying, it's not supposed to be a direct comparison. The only other vehicle ive driven that was comparible is my 2001 chevy 1500. When I turn the wheel coming through the canyons the front tires are first to give, understandably so right? Isn't the weight distribution some thing like 60/40 f/r on those things

and the s2000 is an amazing chasis, so that in no way is comparable.

Again, I wasn't directly comparing.

A cheap way to fix it would be to just get an eibach prokit(lowering springs)$200, a pair of front and rear ebay brand strut tower bars $40, and a pair of suspension technique sway bars $248. So now for under 500 bucks you can have a car that is much less prone to understeer. and when you can afford a little bit more, get some tokico premium shocks,

All of this seems like it would be afddressing the suspension as a whole, and not directly the front wheel sliding bias. If I did all this wouldn't the car handle better, of course, but when it came back down to wich tires are going to break first, wouldn't the front ones just start sliding again?

 

[14.5 drift]

what size tires do you have in the front and rear? From a tire aspect when a rwd or fwd car understeers its because the front wheels give up before the rear wheels have a chance.If you had smaller tires on the front or a less sticky compund this would happen.
Andrew

They are the same size tires all the way around.

it's funny cause now that i think about it, the back tires are mostly bald cause i used to do brake stands in the car alot, and the front tires are near new. Yet the front tires give first?

 

[greenmachine97]

Well yes, your car would handle much better. but part of a car handling better, is the amount of understeer it has. upgrading almost any part of the suspension would help eliminate the understeer, front tires sliding. The stiffer a car is, the less it will flex, and the less it would give into understeer. That is why D1 cars are stiffer than a wedding pecker. So by adding sway bars, strut bars, and springs. you stiffen the chasis up alot, therefore reducing the amount of understeer. Sway bars, and stbs would make a huge difference in the amount of understeer. and adding lowering sprigns at the same time just makes sense to me. you can use other sources such as:
www.240sx.org
www.project240.com
www.projectnissan.com
www.pdm-racing.com
if you have anymore questions jsut ask. i dont mean to come off as an asshole, so i am sorry if i did. i am just tryng to help you out.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

the front sway could be loose or damaged, My rear sway is completly bendable. I can move it without putting weight on it and my back end goes out pretty easily. Id check that if it is still in tact.
Andrew