Skyline GTR ATTESA Trnas and front diff in a AWD DSM!?

[SpoOLxExO]

Ok, I have been pondering this for a long time.
The most obvious gripe about owning a DSM, is that our transmissions suck.
Well, GTR AWD trannys have been discribed more than once as "Rock-crushers", and handling 7500rpm launches all day, every day. Plus they have the ability to transfer all the power to the rear tires only, or AWD mode using an electronic controller.

What if it was possible to adapt the transmission, and the front differential carrier onto a stock DSM chassis, as well as utilizing the stock rear-end?

Well I'd tell you that you wouldn't ever have to worry about breaking drivetrain parts again, and how cool would it be to roll up to the staging lanes in your DSM, smoke the rear meats only, turn the controller back to AWD mode an lauch the shit out of it?

This is utilizing the 4g63 still, maybe a custom adapter? Bellhousing?

Can anyone add some more insight to this idea?

 

[bOOstd GSX]

dude if you ever, ever in your life ever find out how to do this swap i will:

a) shit my pants
b) congratulate you
and
c) instantly have it done

i dont see this working though

it just seems way to difficult

 

[ASZRAEL1266]

it would cost way to much. Look at the price of a GTR tranny. all the custom work having the trany shiped over seas. I could see this cost 10k plus easly, but it would be sick. The way i see it, it would be easyer to do it with a evo tranny i think. Also the skyline is a inline six the tranny is like a rwd tranny. I don't have pics of it but the tranny for the skyline starts at the motor and ends about where the drive seat is. It is smack in the middle of the car.

 

[sunflashx]

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http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/productdetails.asp?CategoryID=3&SubID=6&CatalogueID=102

Marco has addressed the "weak tranny" issue with his latest innovation.

 

[SpoOLxExO]

Ok the first thing I wanna say is that, this project is a theorehtical engineering project for a do it yourselfer type of guy (Myself) in a shop with almost every fabrication/mechanic tool I would need.

Prices:
I have seen GTR transmissions for around $700, this didn't include the Front diff carrier, so lets say on a good deal, $1000 for the Trans parts.
I am not positive if the R32 GTR had an Electronic torque transfer, but I have seen R32s smoking thr rear meats previous to a drag run, so Thats one area that will have to be researched again. The ability to activate the front diff via a japanese GRID diff controller is basically the main idea here, so this is where one would really want to splurge if need be for the trans.

Okay, I have done some eyeballing and tape measurements underneath the hood of both a 1g and a 2g. They both make good donors, however the maine thing that gets in the way is the subframe crossbrace, that houses the steering rack. this would have to be re-located but there is a good thing that comes along with the relocation. upon making a new crossbrace, or modding the stock one, transmission mounts would have to be fabricated in conjunction with the steering rack, due to the GTR's "North-South" setup.

I know that getting the 4g63 to bolt up to this trans seems impossible, but I'm taking a cue from a Yahoo Enthusiest site that made a 4g63 fit in a mighty max truck, with a similar trans setup. All that was needed was a coupler for the trans splines, and an adapter plate made of 3/4" thick
stock.
Lucky for me, my brother is a machinist in the Navy with all the lathes, and CNC machines at his disposal!!!

While true an EVO trans would be easier, whats the point? They don't hold up like these GTR trannys, and they are backward in regard to a DSM. Besides I'm shooting to keep the DSM 4g63 to make it more "Pure"

I think that its possible to adapt this drivetrain utilizing mostly stock, but modified DSM suspention parts. And in this fasion, I'll throw out an estimate of around $2500 if you get killer deals on the parts, can weld yourself, or have a shop at your disposal. sounds a little better than 10 grand huh!?

If only I had a CAD program to whip something up for you guys!

anyone else have any comments? doubts? Hit it up!

 

[SpoOLxExO]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2451636754&category=6755

While there's a way to eliminate the chances of a DSM tranny from breaking, thats not really the point here. Its the "in-cockpit" switchability from 100% RWD to 50/50 AWD with the twist of a knob, all while launching at stratospheric RPM's and loving every minute of it!

Lets see some innovation people, there is ALWAYS a way. Would the fruit from this type of labor not bring extream joy to the DSM community? I ask you!!!

 

[kpt4321]

The engine is mounted 90 degrees the wrong way. You're going to end up with a driveshaft sticking out the side of your car.

Or, you're going to have to fabricate what is basicially a custom "transfer case" of sorts, to relocate the clutch to the rear of the DSM block. Then, you're going to need to cut a whole shitload of material out of the underbody, to get the transmission to fit where stuff normally doesn't go.

Then, you need to get a custom driveshaft built, and a custom rear end.

You're looking at an 8 thousand dollar project, if not more.

 

[bOOstd GSX]

^^ very well said ^^

and why are we even worrying about the skyline tranny, why wouldnt we stick closer to home with the 3000gt tranny?

 

[dthquazi1]

that is one of the biggest trannys i have seen!! imagine the wieght:thumbdown . but also imagine the weight taken from parts removed to make space for it. too little remove imho.

 

[JJ93TalonTsiAWD]

^^^^GOOD POINT^^^^
REGUARDING WHAT BOOSTED GSX SAID

 

[EvoGun]

K simple just rebuild your tranny with all the truff tranny parts(not going to break down parts)Then Shave over 1000lb of your car and wow you have a indistructible solution. Get a disconect for the drive shaft and lock the viscus. Then you have a big FWD burn out that = real sleeper.

All this for 500-1000 bucks..

Just my two cents. and the greatest part is your power to weight= very fast times.

 

[mitsugsx95]

Yeah, GTRs are the shiz, but if you want a GTR transmission, just get the damn car. Its never gonna work with the 4G63 engine. Its just physicaly impossible. I agree with the EVO trans if anything.

 

[SpoOLxExO]

You guys are still missing the point....

1.An evolution transmission would be harder to adapt due to the fact that it sits 180 degrees on the other side of the quadrant of a traditional DSM drivetrain layout, so that means you'd have to flip the 4g63 the other way, AND get it to fire in reverse rotation.....eeeeeennnt nice try.

2.I never intended to install the trans like a DSM trans. a GTR trans has a north-south configuration, like a WRX. Thats the whole thing about this project, cuttin and welding is going to be done thats a givin. But Its possible to get it to sit in a DSM the way it sits in a GTR.

-The shifter linkage would be removed. Instead the actual shifter from the GTR trans would reside where the shifter plate would be. From there a custom driveshaft would be needed.

-The steering box on a DSM would have to be relocated/and or reworked to accept the tranny in the driveshaft tunnel. Which might have to be widened as well. This is the bulk of the fabrication. While relocating the box, custom GTR tranny mounts will be adapted due to the trannys north-south configuration. Sort of like on The 1g RWD Mighty-mouse. If they found a way to hook a 4g63 onto a 2-speed powerglide, then its possible to rock a GTR tranny.

Although that car has a custom tubular front K-member, as well as a custom 12 bolt GM rear end fabbed into it as well.
The goal is to modify the front of a DSM to accept the GTR trans, utilize the DSM LSD rear end, and make an adapter for the 4g63-to-gtr tranny relationship.

This is the best I can come up with in regard to graphics


0 ---------------- B <------headlights
//////GTR//4G63
0 ____________B
Rear==>
of
DSM


Are we seeing the big picture?

 

[mitsugsx95]

well, im sure everyone was talking about the evoIII transmission. To even configure the trans with the engine, you would have to make custom motor mounts and make it like the SR20det (where our engine bays are not configured to hold a 4cyl that way).

 

[MNGSX]

The magnus dogbox is essentially what all out rally AWD mitsu trans have been for some time. There is more than one place to get guts to make a dogbox... None of them cheap.. In the longrun probably better than the skyline idea.

Now buschur needs to buy that and drop it in the starquest since the 4g63 engine is pointed that way already.... Then weld up 2g DSM front suspension with the front drive via raxles to the skyline front diff.

 

[EvoGun]

One last point the change in mounting the trans and motor would indeed cause frame twist the chassie was never ment to hold torque from side to side. So some frame connectors would be needed. You is a none sunroof model right ?


If you make it work you be the only guy that would have one that would be a great accomplishment in its self. GL

 

[ASZRAEL1266]

I could see the upside to it and it would be awsome to have a strong tranny and be able to adjust it from inside the car. It is going to take alot of money and time to do. GL with it.
on a side note i might get flamed for it but i do have very detailed to scale models of both a skyline and evo. The tranny on the skyline is huge and very long. That tranny is about half as long as the car. By the looks of it the tranny in the skyline would end just behind the driver seat in an evo and evos. In a dsm that would make for some short drive shaft.

 

[Morphius]

Don't take this wrong, I enjoy the enthusiasm and imagination!!

Originally posted by SpoOLxExO
1.An evolution transmission would be harder to adapt due to the fact that it sits 180 degrees on the other side of the quadrant of a traditional DSM drivetrain layout, so that means you'd have to flip the 4g63 the other way, AND get it to fire in reverse rotation.....eeeeeennnt nice try.

It would take LESS fabrication to make a EVO8 engine fit than it would to make the GTR trans fit. I'll guarantee that.

Originally posted by SpoOLxExO
2.I never intended to install the trans like a DSM trans. a GTR trans has a north-south configuration, like a WRX. Thats the whole thing about this project, cuttin and welding is going to be done thats a givin. But Its possible to get it to sit in a DSM the way it sits in a GTR.

Anythings possible with enough time and money. Seriously, that trans is HUGE. You'd have to rip the entire floor pan out and weld new steel in place. Besides reworking the suspension up front.

Originally posted by SpoOLxExO
The shifter linkage would be removed. Instead the actual shifter from the GTR trans would reside where the shifter plate would be. From there a custom driveshaft would be needed.

GTR trans shifter would not reside where the stock one is. Look at how long that trans is to start with. (Remember, the bellhousing will almost be flush with the firewall.) Then add on the adapter for the t/case and the t/case itself. (as shown assembled) That shifter will nearly be at the rear of the console.

Originally posted by SpoOLxExO
The steering box on a DSM would have to be relocated/and or reworked to accept the tranny in the driveshaft tunnel. Which might have to be widened as well. This is the bulk of the fabrication. While relocating the box, custom GTR tranny mounts will be adapted due to the trannys north-south configuration. Sort of like on The 1g RWD Mighty-mouse. If they found a way to hook a 4g63 onto a 2-speed powerglide, then its possible to rock a GTR tranny.

Steering box relocated? YES. Reworked tranny tunnel? YES, heavily. Again, anything is possible with money and time.

Originally posted by SpoOLxExO
Although that car has a custom tubular front K-member, as well as a custom 12 bolt GM rear end fabbed into it as well.
The goal is to modify the front of a DSM to accept the GTR trans, utilize the DSM LSD rear end, and make an adapter for the 4g63-to-gtr tranny relationship.

On thing you are missing..... see the t/case and driveshaft that runs alongside the tranny? That needs to run to an axle upfront. Exactly like a 4WD truck. You'd need to add an axle/suspension. TON more fab work there.

Give me the choice..... I'd install the EVO8 engine anyday over that!!

 

[Morphius]

Originally posted by bOOstd GSX
[Band why are we even worrying about the skyline tranny, why wouldnt we stick closer to home with the 3000gt tranny? [/B]

5spd is nearly identical to T/E/L 5 spd with exception of gear ratios/engine side trans case. It has the wider 13 1/4 bellhousing. Besides being taller.

6spd, from what I've read is stronger. It's a Getrag.

Just need an adapter to run the 6spd.

 

[SpoOLxExO]

I didn't take anything the wrong way Morphius, I appreciate the points!

You guys have very interesting arguments, and all have good points. Although the only specs you seem to have on the GTR tranny is, "Look at the trans, its huge. My model GTR's tranny takes up most of the underside" I didn't see any measurments in regard to why most of you don't think it would work, or not work w/o 10 grand in fabrication.

This thread is NOT about an EVO8 drivetrain in any way. Its about utilizing the 1st gen 4g63t used in our 90-99 DSM's(But obviously a 6-bolt will be used), and coupling it with the GTR tranny and front diff carrier. This also applies to the 3000gt VR4 trans. I have also heard that the Getrag transaxle in the 3S is weak compared to the north-south configuration of say, a Getrag 6-speed TT Supra tranny. This is why I am reasearching this, the gear sets are stronger when using this type of configuration, right out of the box.

Maybe I should rework my mission statement:

What is needed to adapt the GTR tranny into a DSM using the stock LSD rear end?

I'm thinking:

-Front k member that houses the steering box, and front diff carrier(Although it seems the diff sits under the oil pan, so maybe custom or clearanced stock pan).

-Custom bellhousing, or an adapter using either the GTR bellhousing(prolly not) or the DSM bellhousing (More feasable).

-Custom coupler to get the DSM crank splines to line up with the GTR input shaft

-Custom propeller shaft for front diff, and custom driveshaft for tranny to rear end.

-Reworked water pump outlet for radiator

-Reworked stock intake mani, or sheet metal intake due to relocation of engine.

A bunch of nickle and dime shit thats sure to pop up.

any other ideas?

Remember, this is not about the "Easy way out" or a EVO/3S drivetrain would be easier, yadda yadda...etc

 

[aaron31182]

Here is some more nickle and dime shit to add to your list:

The front differential for the AWD GTR is connected to the oil pan and engine of the RB26DETT. So not only would you need to find a way to run a custom driveshaft from the transfer case through the passanger seating area to the front diff, you would have to custom mount it, because it has no provisions for mounting to a frame. Then, you'd have to invent a way to run the driver's side front driveshaft through the oil pan on the 4G63 engine. You would probably have to run some sort of dry sump oiling system which should add a few grand to the price of your project. The oilpan on the RB26 is very flat, and is shaped in such a way that the front driveshaft can clear it. So with a dry sump oiling system you can run a very flat oilpan that might allow the driveshaft to clear.

You said you don't want to take the easy way out, but I really see no way of getting this to work. Sorry man. It would be sweet but short of doing a "monster garage" on a dsm and swapping over the whole front end, engine, and drivetrain from the GTR, it isn't going to work. If you really want to get some Skyline part in your car, look into the 5 speed GTS-T transmission from the RWD only skyline. Or if you are really into getting 6 speeds in your car, look into the V160 6 speed out of the supra. Its identical to the 6 speed GTR transmission but it doesn't have the transfer case on the end of it. It's still a huge transmission. Good luck.

 

[SpoOLxExO]

See, I wish you hadn't brought you points up, again no real measurements were givin, which makes me dis-agree with your statements.

So how flat is the oil pan?
cause a 4g oil pan is about 2" deep were it counts, in the back, were the front diff would sit.

Its not about having 6-gears, hell I was figuring using the 5-gear R32 tranny. And its not about RWD either, I live in maine RWD cars are summer toys only.

If Morphius can stick a 455 big block v8 in a talon, this swap can be done.
If dave Buschur can change the configuration of the AWD DSM to rear drive, this swap can be done.

I'm not hearing the "It can't be done", cop-out statements, with no hard evedence or measurements, sorry.

The key here, upon further research, is the custom front suspention/subframe assembly. Weather its tubular, or modded form thw stock one, this is where the concentraion needs to be.

anyone got any measurements of the GTR tranny? DSM engine bay, or DSM driveshaft tunnel?

 

[Morphius]

Originally posted by SpoOLxExO
So how flat is the oil pan?
cause a 4g oil pan is about 2" deep were it counts, in the back, were the front diff would sit.

4G63 oil pan is perfect for running north/south. Might have to bias the engine further forward than Buschur to clear a front diff for AWD. The slimness of the GTR RWD tranny would lend itself to the north/south configuration better. Much less modification of the trans tunnel. The AWD version is another story. By the time you got done you wouldn't be able to have a pass seat in the car.

Originally posted by SpoOLxExO
If Morphius can stick a 455 big block v8 in a talon, this swap can be done. If dave Buschur can change the configuration of the AWD DSM to rear drive, this swap can be done.

True. Can be done. But, how much fabrication (or tear up) of the car would you expect? Meaning.... time is no object. Or it needs to be done tomarrow.

Originally posted by SpoOLxExO
The key here, upon further research, is the custom front suspention/subframe assembly. Weather its tubular, or modded form thw stock one, this is where the concentraion needs to be.

If you intend to go AWD again, a tubular one would be needed. By the time you modify the stock one to clear and adapt the front diff, it'd be best to start from scratch.

Originally posted by SpoOLxExO
Anyone got any measurements of the GTR tranny? DSM engine bay, or DSM driveshaft tunnel?

Oct 2003 sport compact car - Don't get busted issue. Page 172 shows several skyline trannys in Matchless Crowd Racing's shop. Both RWD and AWD versions. They are setting on end. Good measurement.... they are setting next to an engine stand sporting a RB26. The tips of the trannys (both AWD and RWD) are taller than the plate the block bolts to on the engine stand. There are two arms used for the upper bellhousing mouting. They are extended nearly vertical. Tranny tips are flush with the tops of those extension arms. or top block mouting bolt. I don't have an engine stand here to measure, so my guestimate is 4 - 4 1/2 ft. So, 48-54 inches. If someone has a stand measure it as I described and report.

DSM engine bay..... what are you looking for?

Frame rail to Frame rail is 35"
Firewall to backside of radiator 36"
Depth of firewall:cowl to top of front crossmember 20"
I have more.

What measurments are you looking for on the trans tunnel?

 

[aaron31182]

I have the measurements of the Getrag 233 transmission for the Supra which is exactly the same as the GTR tranny (not including the transfer case).

Length 26"
Width 15.25"
Height 14"
Engine block to shifter pivot point is about 30-32".
The 14" height is the bellhousing.

15.25" is at the widest point of the bellhousing. The case is only
8.5" wide.

Length is 25" to the crossmember centerline and 26" to the
companion flange. 26 inches long without the bell housing or transfercase.

The transfer case adds a lot of width and length.

The T-case probably doubles the transmissions width, so lets say its now 17" wide. Thats a lot of hacking. The tunnel isn't 17 inches wide. I'm sure it would have to be even wider than that for mounts, but lets say 17" wide. Now lets estimate how long the T-case is. I'll say 10", although its more. Now you are talking atleast 4 feet from the back of the block to the companion flange. This thing is BIG. I don't even know where that would put the shifter inside the car.

According to freshalloy forums, the transmission alone weights 200lbs, empty. Our stock AWD transmission weights 120lbs empty. Our transfer case can't be more than 50lbs. This is going to be a lot of weight.

How deep is the oil pan? Not deep at all. Maybe half an inch? And the front diff would sit in line with the front hubs. How do you know how far back or forward the engine is going to sit when its facing north and south? What if the driver's side axle has to pass right through the oil pump pickup? You dont know until you are 75% of the way into the project.

See how the front diff is hooked to the oil pan? That is going to be some interesting brackets to mount that to the 4G63.

Look I don't have measurements of the engine bay on my dsm (although I could get them), but there is no way that huge transmission is going to fit in a dsm without tons of cutting and tin work to cover it. Can it be done? Probably. Would anyone do it? No. Why? Because you could get a Tremec T-56 6 speed for next to nothing, get a custom bell housing, driveshaft and install it for 1/6th of the cost of trying to fabricate a million things to get a GTR drivetrain into your car. I'm not saying don't do it, if you really want to, and you have enough resources to make all of this stuff, then go for it. You'd be in every import magazine out there. Other than being in magazines, it isn't worth the time and money.

 

[kpt4321]

Sure, you can do it. Of course, it's going to take so much time and money, you might as well just buy a Skyline.