Clutch Disk Backward, transmission drop?

[jukematt]

So my car has been down since January with spun bearings. Rebuilt and all good to go, start her up, she sounds beautiful but won't shift when running, only when off. Replaced the slave cylinder, master is fine (pretty new), bled the system a ton. No change. I figured I accidentally put the clutch disk in backward.

Well question is, since I haven't ever removed the transmission alone, not entirely sure how to go about it. Couldn't find a write-up. Haynes says to remove the crossmembers? I'm just wondering what the best way is to get it to slide over enough to get in there, remove the PP, flip around the disk, reinstall the PP, and bolt it back up? I guess it would be like doing a clutch install but I don't have to take off the flywheel. Just never done it myself.

Suggestions? Will I actually have to drop the transmission down? Maybe remove the passenger engine mount bolt, drop the front crossmember and let it roll down the rear engine mount without removing it?

 

[Snot Rocket]

I don't think it is possible to put the clutch disk in backwards. The PP would not bolt down if it was backwards.

 

[2wdlaser]

Pretty sure you can't put it on backwards unless you forced it on.your gonna have to remove the trans

 

[seattleshawn]

I don't think it is possible to put the clutch disk in backwards. The PP would not bolt down if it was backwards.

Rocket is correct. At least on a sprung clutch.

 

[jukematt]

Yeah it is possible. It is the organic street disk, ACT 2100. There was actually a sticker on it which said which side was which when you install but I think the sticker got flipped around in the eight months my car was down.

But my question was about the transmission. I mean, do I remove the center bolt out of the three mounts on the transmission and lift it? Or can I possibly remove the center bolt on the passenger side mount, drop the whole front crossmember without touching the front engine mount, and just roll it down the rear? Or how do I really go about removing the trans enough to unbolt the PP and stuff?

Thanks.

 

[SlowChild3]

Look for Jafro's videos on YouTube.

 

[jukematt]

I found those links to his videos from another thread but I am not needing to completely remove the trans, just out of the way a bit. If no suggestions, I'll try and figure something out. Just wanted to make it easier if some people had some tips who have removed a few of them or whatever.

 

[miguelmcv]

You can't just move the transmission to make room which there is no room to move the transmission.
You have to take it off, It is the same process to remove it or to move it, which ever you do, you have to remove the axles, unbolt the mounts, remove the shift cables, starter, trany bolts etc, etc, etc, etc,,, You could off do it separating the trany away from the block to work on the clutch, but you have to remove the knuckle to have enough room for the trany to move out, other wise there will be only like 5 or 6 inch, which that barely clear only the clutch.

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

If its a sprung disc you physically cannot bolt the pressure plate on with the disc flipped around. Also, as these guys are telling you, you can't just move the trans and work on the clutch. If you need to do work in there the trans must be removed. It's really not very hard.

 

[greekgodchaos]

YES THIS IS A LONG POST, I DID IT BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN IN THIS POSITION BEFORE, READ ALL OF THIS IF YOU WANT SOLUTIONS!

Can you post a picture of where your clutch fork is sitting in the square hole that is in your bell housing? If it is sitting too far to the passengers side, then you need to shim the pivot ball. It should sit closer to the drivers side of the car. Is the TOB release fork used? What about the pivot ball? It could be if your TOB release fork is old, the pivot ball has worn the fulcrum point down, in which case you need a new release fork and pivot ball. Have you ever shimmed the pivot ball? I just went through this and ended up shimming my pivot ball by 4mm by using 2 2mm thick washers, and boom I could disengage my clutch. Granted I should have probably gone to 6mm for easier disengagement but whatever. Here is a link to TeamRIP's How-To on shimming your pivot ball.TRE TECH TIPS

And as far as dropping the transmission, I just did it in about 4hrs total and I have AWD as well; this is the order in which to remove stuff:

TIP: KEEP YOUR ISHT ORGANIZED! HERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT WILL MAKE THIS SO MUCH EASIER:

[HARBOR FRIGHT] SHOPPING LIST: (RECOMMENDED)
~3 Clear Plastic Organizer Boxes
~A Torque Wrench http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/sockets-ratchets/1-2-half-inch-drive-click-stop-torque-wrench-239.html
~They have a tool that's a ratcheting, 90 degree socket wrench, its very useful for tight spaces, Ill post a link once I find it
~9mil Nitrile Gloves (trust me, 9mil are the best)
~Simple Green
~Shop Towels
~Funnel for new fluid
~Clutch Alignment tool (if you don't have one already)

+You are going to want new crush washers for your fill and drain plugs on the transmission, which I believe are 16mm and 18mm I.D. respectively.
+Redline MT-90 2qts + 1qt Redline Heavy Shockproof Gear Oil (AMAZING COMBO = 2qts MT-90 + .5qts HD Shockproof)

~Remove Battery and Battery support
~Jack Car Up (Put jack stands under OEM jacking points for safety)
~Drain Tranny
~FR, FL Wheels OFF
~Unbolt Wheel Hubs/Knuckles
~Pull Axles OUT
~Unbolt Intermediate Shaft (Driver side only)
~Disconnect shifter linkages
~Unbolt Slave Cylinder and move it aside (do not have to disconnect it from the clutch line)
~Unbolt Starter
~Disconnect Reverse Light switch
~Unbolt and drop T-case ( do not have to empty it if you do not want to, just be careful that the driveshaft does not slip out of the tail end)
~Put a block of wood or something eqivalent under your oil pan before dropping tranny to support the engine
~Move transmission jack underneath tranny (Harbor Freight Tools has these for sale, I love mine http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/transmission-jacks/450-lb-capacity-transmission-jack-39178.html)
~Unbolt the 4 bolts holding the transmission to the block
~Remove the 4 bolts holding your tranny mount to the passenger side wall of the engine bay (much easier that leaving the mount on, IMO)
~WIGGLE WIGGLE WIGGLE WIGGLE WIGGLE! Get that thing off the block, this will take much effort in some cases)
~Once you have separated the transmission from the block, lower the transmission jack and simply roll it out!
~At this point you can take your PP off and see if you did or did not put your disc on backwards (Unlikely if sprung as stated before, simply because the "spring hub center" would be mashed against the flywheel, and if that were the case, I doubt your PP would be able to be installed, and you would probably have heard some catastrophic noises when you tried to disengage the PP upon pushing the clutch pedal down)
~Remove your TOB Clip, TOB (Replace with NEW OEM), and inspect your pivot ball and release fork, odds are both are worn out, and if thats the case, its not worth the effort to shim the pivot ball if the release fork is almost worn through at the fulcrum point (trust me, I thought I knew better and my OEM fork snapped on me within 5 minutes of putting my transmission back together...while I was test driving it! BAD!!)
~Shim that pivot ball even if you get new parts, just do a mock install by shimming the pivot ball, installing the release fork, and the TOB and see where it sits. Most people go with 2 washers (4mm total shimmed) but this varies.

Reverse the procedure and make sure you don't overtighten any bolts! Refer to the OEM manual for torque specs!

And the disc should have the flat side against the flywheel, while the raised, "spring housing" goes towards your transmission. Best of luck.



Also check your Slave and Master cylinders for leakage. Those can both cause disengagement issues. And make sure your slave cylinder is tightly fastened to the block because I left mine loose on accident once and I had these same issues. Tightened it up and fixed.

 

[jukematt]

OK that is what I needed to know. So I do have to fully remove it. I guess I'll just follow Jafro's videos.

Also, my fork looks perfect. It sits a little toward the driver's side and gets pushed pretty far over to the passenger side when the clutch pedal is pressed. No need to shim the pivot ball. I have never replaced or shimmed the pivot ball. I also haven't replaced the fork before. My clutch was fine before the engine tear down so it must have been something I did.

Thanks for the responses.

 

[jukematt]

YES THIS IS A LONG POST, I DID IT BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN IN THIS POSITION BEFORE, READ ALL OF THIS IF YOU WANT SOLUTIONS!

Can you post a picture of where your clutch fork is sitting in the square hole that is in your bell housing? If it is sitting too far to the passengers side, then you need to shim the pivot ball. It should sit closer to the drivers side of the car. Is the TOB release fork used? What about the pivot ball? It could be if your TOB release fork is old, the pivot ball has worn the fulcrum point down, in which case you need a new release fork and pivot ball. Have you ever shimmed the pivot ball? I just went through this and ended up shimming my pivot ball by 4mm by using 2 2mm thick washers, and boom I could disengage my clutch. Granted I should have probably gone to 6mm for easier disengagement but whatever. Here is a link to TeamRIP's How-To on shimming your pivot ball.TRE TECH TIPS

And as far as dropping the transmission, I just did it in about 4hrs total and I have AWD as well; this is the order in which to remove stuff:

TIP: KEEP YOUR ISHT ORGANIZED! HERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT WILL MAKE THIS SO MUCH EASIER:

[HARBOR FRIGHT] SHOPPING LIST: (RECOMMENDED)
~3 Clear Plastic Organizer Boxes
~A Torque Wrench 1/2" Torque Wrench
~They have a tool that's a ratcheting, 90 degree socket wrench, its very useful for tight spaces, Ill post a link once I find it
~9mil Nitrile Gloves (trust me, 9mil are the best)
~Simple Green
~Shop Towels
~Funnel for new fluid
~Clutch Alignment tool (if you don't have one already)

+You are going to want new crush washers for your fill and drain plugs on the transmission, which I believe are 16mm and 18mm I.D. respectively.
+Redline MT-90 2qts + 1qt Redline Heavy Shockproof Gear Oil (AMAZING COMBO = 2qts MT-90 + .5qts HD Shockproof)

~Remove Battery and Battery support
~Jack Car Up (Put jack stands under OEM jacking points for safety)
~Drain Tranny
~FR, FL Wheels OFF
~Unbolt Wheel Hubs/Knuckles
~Pull Axles OUT
~Unbolt Intermediate Shaft (Driver side only)
~Disconnect shifter linkages
~Unbolt Slave Cylinder and move it aside (do not have to disconnect it from the clutch line)
~Unbolt Starter
~Disconnect Reverse Light switch
~Unbolt and drop T-case ( do not have to empty it if you do not want to, just be careful that the driveshaft does not slip out of the tail end)
~Put a block of wood or something eqivalent under your oil pan before dropping tranny to support the engine
~Move transmission jack underneath tranny (Harbor Freight Tools has these for sale, I love mine Transmission Jack - 450 Lb. Capacity)
~Unbolt the 4 bolts holding the transmission to the block
~Remove the 4 bolts holding your tranny mount to the passenger side wall of the engine bay (much easier that leaving the mount on, IMO)
~WIGGLE WIGGLE WIGGLE WIGGLE WIGGLE! Get that thing off the block, this will take much effort in some cases)
~Once you have separated the transmission from the block, lower the transmission jack and simply roll it out!
~At this point you can take your PP off and see if you did or did not put your disc on backwards (Unlikely if sprung as stated before, simply because the "spring hub center" would be mashed against the flywheel, and if that were the case, I doubt your PP would be able to be installed, and you would probably have heard some catastrophic noises when you tried to disengage the PP upon pushing the clutch pedal down)
~Remove your TOB Clip, TOB (Replace with NEW OEM), and inspect your pivot ball and release fork, odds are both are worn out, and if thats the case, its not worth the effort to shim the pivot ball if the release fork is almost worn through at the fulcrum point (trust me, I thought I knew better and my OEM fork snapped on me within 5 minutes of putting my transmission back together...while I was test driving it! BAD!!)
~Shim that pivot ball even if you get new parts, just do a mock install by shimming the pivot ball, installing the release fork, and the TOB and see where it sits. Most people go with 2 washers (4mm total shimmed) but this varies.

Reverse the procedure and make sure you don't overtighten any bolts! Refer to the OEM manual for torque specs!

And the disc should have the flat side against the flywheel, while the raised, "spring housing" goes towards your transmission. Best of luck.



Also check your Slave and Master cylinders for leakage. Those can both cause disengagement issues. And make sure your slave cylinder is tightly fastened to the block because I left mine loose on accident once and I had these same issues. Tightened it up and fixed.

OK I didn't come back and check this so I didn't see the more info you posted. I just followed the videos by Jafro on YouTube and got it all off. I see now that the "raised" portion of the disc fits inside the PP which I had correct. It would seem my problem was with the little spring under the release bearing. When I felt inside the transmission, everything seemed really loose. The spring had come off. Probably when I washed the trans before putting it back in, it came off and I didn't notice.

Pic inside transmission (you can see the spring is off). Hard to believe that stupid little spring can cause all this. Everything is nice and moves how it should now that I put the spring back on.

Second pic is with the spring back on. How does it look?

 

[SlowChild3]

They call that the jesus clip. Did you forget to pray?

Thats on backwards i believe. The hoop should sit on the case of bearing. Lets let someone else chime in because maybe i did mine wrong. Lol

The clip will drag the transmission case and pull it out. That's probably how it came off.

 

[seattleshawn]

They call that the jesus clip. Did you forget to pray?

Thats on backwards i believe. The hoop should sit on the case of bearing. Lets let someone else chime in because maybe i did mine wrong. Lol

The clip will drag the transmission case and pull it out. That's probably how it came off.

Correct it needs to be flipped 180. It should sit inside a grove on the TOB at least on the OEM ones that does not look like an OEM TOB though. I also highly doubt that the clip will cause your clutch not to disengage. While you had it on backwards it was still doing its job which is holding the TOB to the clutch fork. You have something else going on here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwTXX58yE8c

 

[jukematt]

My friend was kind enough to send me this link which shows the proper way so I have it backward currently.

Throw out bearing return clip install ... TOB clip - DSM Forums: Mitsubishi Eclipse, Plymouth Laser, and Eagle Talon Forum: DSMtalk.com

The clip goes over the TOB lip.

Correct it needs to be flipped 180. It should sit inside a grove on the TOB at least on the OEM ones that does not look like an OEM TOB though. I also highly doubt that the clip will cause your clutch not to disengage. While you had it on backwards it was still doing its job which is holding the TOB to the clutch fork. You have something else going on here.

1990 DSM throwout Bearing Clip - YouTube

Ah thank you I didn't see your post. Also, if you look at the first picture, the clip was off so it wasn't even lining everything up. The whole system wasn't working right.

Also, the TOB is not OEM. It came with my ACT 2100. I had a friend of a friend who was a DSM guy install it last time.

 

[seattleshawn]

Im 99% positive this clip is not your issue. I still think even with the clip being off its not going to cause your issues. Once the transmission is installed is impossible for the clutch fork not to apply even pressure to the TOB. While the clip does keep the bearing from riding on the clutch fingers when the clutch is not engaged, that's pretty much its only function. Technically you could leave it out and everything will still work the way it should. I would double check that the flywheel is no on the crank crooked and make sure the machinist gave you the correct step on the flywheel. I just hate to see you put this all back together only to have the same issue. Is your pivot ball new and shimmed, and is your clutch fork new?

EDIT :
A bad pivot ball, improper shimming or a bent clutch fork can all cause the issue you are having

 

[SlowChild3]

Dowel pins and starter plate would keep the clutch from disengaging correctly too right?

 

[jukematt]

Im 99% positive this clip is not your issue. I still think even with the clip being off its not going to cause your issues. Once the transmission is installed is impossible for the clutch fork not to apply even pressure to the TOB. While the clip does keep the bearing from riding on the clutch fingers when the clutch is not engaged, that’s pretty much its only function. Technically you could leave it out and everything will still work the way it should. I would double check that the flywheel is no on the crank crooked and make sure the machinist gave you the correct step on the flywheel. I just hate to see you put this all back together only to have the same issue.

I can check the flywheel is not on crooked but I didn't have the flywheel resurfaced since I am putting back on the same clutch that was on it before the tear down. I am certainly open to any more advice that can cause the issue.

Dowel pins and starter plate would keep the clutch from disengaging correctly too right?

Oh that's right, I was missing the alignment pin for the flywheel to the block. I don't remember if it was there when I took it all apart. I asked around and people were saying they didn't think it was necessary. I aligned it up by eye and the bolts.

 

[seattleshawn]

Check my last post i added some info. I know on a 1G you want the clutch fork more toward the drivers side of the car than the passangers side when everything is installed correctly. I dont know if this is the same on the 2G's Im pretty sure there are some differences between the 2. On a 1G if the clutch arm is to far past the center of the opening it indicates any or all of the possibilities I mentioned in my edit.

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/clutchandflywheeltech.htm

 

[jukematt]

Check my last post i added some info. I know on a 1G you want the clutch fork more toward the drivers side of the car than the passangers side when everything is installed correctly. I dont know if this is the same on the 2G's Im pretty sure there are some differences between the 2. On a 1G if the clutch arm is to far past the center of the opening it indicates any or all of the possibilities I mentioned in my edit.

RRE's Clutch And Flywheel Tech Info

I checked on that too. On a 2G it should sit slightly toward the drivers side as well. If it is toward the passenger side then you need a new pivot ball, shim, etc. and would cause my issue but it was toward the drivers side so that isn't it. Fork looks fine.

 

[seattleshawn]

I checked on that too. On a 2G it should sit slightly toward the drivers side as well. If it is toward the passenger side then you need a new pivot ball, shim, etc. and would cause my issue but it was toward the drivers side so that isn't it. Fork looks fine.

Well I have reached the end of my technical knowledge on this subject man. Maybe someone else knows what could cause this.