I'm sick of sprung disc. Search around and it seems that every freakin brand of clutch has had a disc pop a spring in at least one dsm. And I've had more than my share and tired of pulling tranny's because of them. I've decided to bite the bullet and go with an unsprung. I figure it's lighter and will help me rev faster, and no popping springs. Also won't have to worry about it holding the power.
Yes, I know it's an off/on type of clutch to go with but which would be more "friendly" for the street? I have a new Spec pressure plate. Just need to order the disc. I'll be ordering another Fidanza flywheel at the same time. Was leaning towards a 4 puck cause it's even lighter than the 6 puck and would really like to get one but just how hard are they to drive???
Also, I've had a few 6 puck sprung disc before that were very grabby in the beginning until I broke it in and then was just as streetable as an organic disc. Should I be looking to have the same type of feel with an unsprung? Plan to use my Spec PP and buy an Act unsprung in a couple of weeks. Thanks for any feedback from people that have USED them. 1st hand knowledge only please.
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I went from a sprung street disc/Act2100 combo to an unsprung 4 puck/ACT2900 combo, and it was definitely a big change. It took me about 2 weeks of driving it to get to the point where I didn't have to think about the clutch engagement and could just shift it from muscle memory. Now, the car is not my DD anymore, and I think I stall it once every time I drive it now lol, as I'm not used to the setup any more. It keeps my gf from wanting to drive the car at all at this point, and she used to love to.
I swapped over to the 4 puck combo because I was starting to overpower my street/2100 setup at anything more than 20psi on my E316g...the new clutch/pp does not even blink when I spike over 30psi now. It's not like I'm making huge power, but this is a pretty torquey turbo/setup, so it's good to know that it will not give up grip any time soon. I'm pretty sure I'll break something else first.
I tend to rev a little higher to get a smooth start, but not enough to burn it up or abuse it. Just a higher blip and then a quick release of the pedal. Once you are moving it's effortless, and at redline (mine is stock) there's no drag at all. I have not no-lift-shifted it, but I'd imagine it would be fine that way, too.
____________________________
Matthew : Evo316g + Keydiver + e85 = Permagrin
How was it once you broke it in? Was it pretty easy to drive around or did it jerk pretty hard? Just wondering cause a 4 puck is what I'd really like to have....
Would think it'd be a lil easier to slip with the Spec pp since it's a fairly light pp, versus a 2900.
There's no break-in period for the ACT 4 puck, so it was just jump in and give it everything from day one. I'd imagine that you would have an easier time modulating it with a lighter PP...I've even thought about going back to my 2100 with the 4 puck and seeing if it would still hold the power and drive easier, but it's in there now so I'm going to keep it this way for a while.
My overall thoughts are that I would not mind DD'ing the car with the 2900/4 puck combo if I had to go back to the Talon daily. It does jerk/lurch a little from time to time, but +90% of the time I can drive stop-and-go as smoothly as with my street disc setup. And at the track it's great. I handbrake-preload at the line, and had never been able to build any more than 2psi of boost with the old clutch. The 4 puck is so sticky and PP so heavy, comparitively, that I'm seeing about 8-10psi now, which is pretty sweet Made me rethink my launch completely haha.
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Matthew : Evo316g + Keydiver + e85 = Permagrin
One thing we have noticed is the lighter the pressure plate the narrower your friction zone becomes with a puck style disk. It's really best to use a heavy pressure plate like a 2600 or higher with them.
I have a 2900 in one of my cars with the 4-puck and it feels like a regular clutch to me. Had it in there for 2 years now and I raced the car a lot. I really like it. I just hate the high RPM clutch drag issues all single disk units have though.
I would think a lighter plate would make it easier to drive and be less on/off than with a heavy one. I'd figure that a heavy one would wanna grab it immediately. Trying to think of the reasoning if this isn't the case. Hmmm....
OP, one thing I forgot to mention is that your drivetrain noise will increase quite a bit with an unsprung disc of any type, as the sprung units have that little bit of flexibility built in. It's most noticeable during off-throttle deceleration, and may surprise you at first.
I've only driven one other car with a 4 puck, and it had a 2600, so I can't comment on how a lighter PP feels with one. If I had to speculate as to why a heavier one works best, I'd guess that a heavier PP forces a quicker clamping action on the disc, dissuading you from slipping the clutch. The clutch material is so sticky that, in my experience, it doesn't like to be slipped at low rpms, and trying slip it leads to poor engagement. I basically have a window of a few hundred (+/-) rpm where it engages smoothly during 'normal' driving...anything less and it stalls, anything more and I increase my chance of chatter/choppy engagement. Once I'm all the way up to launch rpms though (~5500rpm), it's great, and slips pretty nicely as previously noted.
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Matthew : Evo316g + Keydiver + e85 = Permagrin
What rpm are ya at when just regular driving around town and leaving a stop light/sign? Just wondering.
Idle, to increase clutch life.
Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by v8s_are_slow
I would think a lighter plate would make it easier to drive and be less on/off than with a heavy one. I'd figure that a heavy one would wanna grab it immediately. Trying to think of the reasoning if this isn't the case. Hmmm....
The heavier PPs don't move as much as the OEM style, because of this the friction zone is increased due to the amount of travel.
When you are moving the clutch pedal 1ft for every inch of PP travel you have less accuracy than if you are moving the pedal 1ft for every half inch. Get it?
Jack
Last edited by JackM; 10-29-2009 at 12:28 PM.
Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping"
Ya'll have me debating now. 6 or 4 puck. The Spec pp is light, so I dunno. And it's fwd....for now. Wonder if having 2 pucks less would be enough of an advantage as far as weight to make it worth getting jerked around. Hmmmm....decisions decisions. I'm placing an order on the 5th so don't have long to decide.
Think about it. A 4-puck has 2 pucks less than a 6, so that means it creates less friction which would mean it will not grab as harshly as the 6. That's what I have noticed anyway...
True, but like you say, less friction, which means less holding power.
But what im confused about is, ACT rates there 4 puck and 6 puck the same. So how does the 4 puck which has less friction surface hold the same as a 6 puck?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackM
Think about it. A 4-puck has 2 pucks less than a 6, so that means it creates less friction which would mean it will not grab as harshly as the 6. That's what I have noticed anyway...
How would an unsprung organic disk do compared to the puck style? Twicks69 was always suggesting a act2600 with the sprung southbend kevlar full disk as the best single disk street setup. I wonder if they make the kevlar disk that is unsprung for our cars?
Think about it. A 4-puck has 2 pucks less than a 6, so that means it creates less friction which would mean it will not grab as harshly as the 6. That's what I have noticed anyway...
Jack
Well, I was thinking about it but a lil differently than you. I was thinking about the rotating mass and weight, making it hard to stop and start the disc with a 6 puck so it'd slip more. Whereas a 4 puck would be very light and very easy to clamp when the pp wants to clamp onto it so it'd get that "jolt" when you let off the clutch.
I seem to get conflicting info here on this issue. Even e-mailed Extremepsi and here was the reply I got back...
Quote:
Hey Scott,
We do not work off commission here, so there is no need for that. It
is my pleasure to help you out. As for the discs, the 6-puck will
definitely be a bit friendlier than the 4 puck. With that said, the
latest version of the ACT sprung 6-pucks have proven to be very
reliable and they are very popular for us.
Regards,
Hung
So it's confusing when some say that the 6 puck is friendlier and some say the 4 puck. So I dunno. Even the websites don't really clarify to well. It doesn't say how well it engages...
The Act disc on Extreme's site:
Quote:
ACT Performance Race Disc Features:
-Quicker shifting due to reduced weight
-Higher torque and heat capacity than organic discs with fade free characteristics
-Longer clutch life through ACT's careful selection of materials and features
-SFI to insure safety
Solid Hub Benefits:
-Choose Four Pad for the Quickest Shifting
-Choose Six Pad for Better Heat Capacity and Better Engagement
-Improved Durability because of Stronger Hub Components
And for another example off the Clutchnet website. I'll throw in the examples for a 3 puck, 4 puck, and 6 puck.
Quote:
RACING 3 BUTTON “QUICK LOCK” ™ SOLID HUB CLUTCH DISC
For drag race use only.
It's ridged and tough. Nothing bites and holds on like the 3 Button disc.
"Severe" best describes the action of this clutch disc. Engagement is harsh and instantaneous with no compromise for slippage.
This disc does not require a clutch cover with a high-pressure load.
Quote:
RACING 4 BUTTON “QUICK LOCK” ™ SOLID HUB CLUTCH DISC
4 Button discs are the most popular in its category.
The disc incorporates four sintered copper pucks and a rigid hub for quick, positive engagement, greater fatigue resistance and improved heat dissipation.
These discs are extremely popular where the clutch has to be slipped: drag racing, road racing from a standing start, stock car racing.
The sharpened engagement/disengagement characteristics of this disc require careful driver attention.
Quote:
RACING 6 BUTTON “QUICK LOCK” ™ SOLID HUB CLUTCH DISC
Clutch Disc is designed for drag and road race use only.
The solid hub metallic button discs are capable of withstanding the highest possible loads that can be transmitted through a disc of its size.
This disc design allows fast shifting at any RPM without risk of blow-up. These discs are extremely popular where the clutch has to be slipped:
drag racing, road racing from a standing start or stock car racing.
An additional benefit: coefficient of friction remains very high even when the friction surfaces become contaminated.
It's all so confusing. Why can't they just say, this disc is easier to engage than this disc, and so on. And maybe explain why??? I mean if that's the case, the 6 puck has more surface area so why wouldn't it clamp harder than the 3 puck? Hmmm....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninharu
How would an unsprung organic disk do compared to the puck style? Twicks69 was always suggesting a act2600 with the sprung southbend kevlar full disk as the best single disk street setup. I wonder if they make the kevlar disk that is unsprung for our cars?
You can't abuse the organic disc like you can the puck disc. You get an organic disc really hot and you're slipping...or needing to get another clutch. I'd look at the Kevlar disc but I'm 1.) on a budget and 2.) the Act puck disc are not only cheap but will grab hard enough to do the job for me I'm sure. Just may not be as smooth. Don't care if it's it's a lil more difficult to drive, but don't wanna look like a total moron that doesn't know how to drive a stick either.
I don't care if this car makes noise from the drivetrain, has a really loud fuel pump, etc. What I care about it making it fast, and reliable. Cause pulling the tranny is getting REALLY old, all because of springs popping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackM
Idle, to increase clutch life.
Jack
The heavier PPs don't move as much as the OEM style, because of this the friction zone is increased due to the amount of travel.
When you are moving the clutch pedal 1ft for every inch of PP travel you have less accuracy than if you are moving the pedal 1ft for every half inch. Get it?
Jack
Okay, and I've been thinking about this one as well all day today and this still doesn't make much sense to me either. How in the heck is the friction zone increased because of the amount of travel the pp has? The clutch is still gonna have the same amount of contact area as a lighter pp. Would think the amount of travel would maybe just make it more difficult to engage smoothly since you have to get use to where it's gonna engage cause of the larger of area of travel that you have to narrow down with the feel, using your foot.
It doesn't make much sense to me as far as it being able to slip more though. So a lighter pp which doesn't grab as hard is gonna grab harder when you launch, and a heavier pp that grabs much harder is easier to slip??? I think I'm lost here somewhere....or you guys have it backwards. Unless someone has a good explanation on this that can break it down pretty clearly so we all understand.
Last edited by v8s_are_slow; 11-01-2009 at 07:04 PM.
Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping"
Yep, I have been personally using these clutches in my own car and countless customer cars. Weight has nothing to do with launching as far as the disk is concerned. You have the weight of the engine, drivetrain, flywheel, etc. The disk weight doesn't do a damn thing unless you are shifting.
You have to know how the sytem works in order to understand how a heavier PP makes the engagement wider. Take a stock and 2900 PP apart and look at how they are different. They are NOT the same. Try it for yourself. A 4 or 6 puck with a stock PP is near impossible to drive. With a 26 or 2900 it feels totally different.
I understand what you're saying about the "weight" part of it. Although the weight WOULD help it rev faster and that's one of the parts that I'm after. Along with the quicker shifting.
What I'm trying to figure out though is this. You're saying a 6 puck would be more harsh than a 4 puck. I asked Hung over at Extreme about this and he replied once again....
Quote:
Hey Scott,
The 4-puck discs are indeed harsher as confirmed by ACT themselves.
Basically the 6-pucks have more material, which will allow for better
heat capacity and better engagement due to the impact being divided
among 6 vs 4. The benefits of the 4-puck is quicker engagement because
the disc is much lighter. I hope that answers your question.
Regards,
Hung
So I'm getting conflicting info here. As far as the pp goes, you were talking about the friction zone being increased due to the amount of travel. That's the part I don't get cause the amount of contact area doesn't change (UNLESS the contact area is a different size from a 2600 or 2900 compared to a stock pp), just the amount of space the pp moves before it contacts the clutch disc. I can understand it being harder for it to narrow down that engagement window to make it easier to engage smoothly because of the travel. But you're saying the amount of travel increases the friction and all. How is that?
As far as the disc itself, according to you, the more pucks you have, the more harsh the engagement would be. So wondering why a 3 puck would be advertised to be more harsh than the 3 or 4 puck disc. I totally understand how the clutch works and how it engages/disengages. Just confused at the moment as to how a 6 puck would be more harsh than a 4 puck.
The SBC sprung Kevlar disk is not expensive at all. It is a great choice.
Contact South Bend Clutch at: 800-988-4345
The part number you want is: 735 TZ Disc
The price is: $142.50 plus shipping.
I would strongly recommend using this clutch disk with the ACT streetlite chromoly steel flywheel, as it has a tendency to run hotter than an organic disk, and can cause the replacement friction surface on a Fidanza flywheel to bowl, resulting in uneven surface wear, and reduced torque capacity. The fix would be to replace the friction surface more regularly, OR not hot-lap the car or overheat the clutch regularly. The clutch material can handle the overheating and survive -- a good characteristic of kevlar disks. What happens is that you start getting clutch slippage, or pedal engagement variations (after break-in) when it overheats. How you fix it, is by allowing the clutch to cool down -- it will return to normal conditions.
This clutch disk handled 630AWHP/580-590TQ and 11/10-second passes with no issues for years, and alot of mileage/abuse.
I used my kevlar disk with an ACT 2600PP, and a Fidanza Flywheel.
Recommendation: SBC Kevlar disk, ACT 2600PP, ACT Streetlite Flywheel, new Mitsu TOB, new Mitsu Flywheel bolts with red loctite to proper torque specs, new master and slave cylinders, and a stainless clutch line.
Good luck,
Tim Zimmer
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Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
Hey man, I sure appreciate your advice on that one. I've actually read a LOT of your post concerning clutches relating to the QM, Clutchnet, South Bend, etc. and seeing the track times you make, definitely helps to back up what ya say so I sure as hell don't question ya about it. I had actually checked out the South Bend already after seeing ya mention it once in a thread after talking about popping springs in a Clutchnet, I think.
Problem is, I'm REALLY tight on money and just not gonna be able to afford even the extra $40-50 bucks to get one. If I were able to wait a few more weeks it wouldn't be an issue but the timing sucks. I HAVE to have my car running as fast as possible and considered just ordering an organic disc from work (Pepboys) for like $67 just to get me by but kept thinking about the springs popping out so decided against it. As well as the fact that I knew nothing about the quality of the disc.
I do wonder about that clutch though being that I do see springs in it. Are they the only company that doesn't have issues with the springs popping out? Cause although I'm not wanting the clutch now, it's something I'd be considering in the future, but only if they have the magic spring dust that keeps them from popping out. Lol. Thanks again for the advice though.
I never had an issue with the springs popping out of the SBC Kevlar disk.
I have had issues though, with spitting springs or loosening up springs in the Clutchnet Sprung 6-puck, RPS disks, and SPEC disks.
If you want reliable, ACT street disk, or the SBC disk I mentioned. If you want the one that will last the longest, and handle the most abuse of these two mentioned, it is the SBC disk for sure.
If you cannot afford a few dollars difference in price (I think the ACT street disk usually runs around $125.00), you should change your spending habits, because if you go cheapo on a disk now, you will only be paying more for fixing it in the near future. Ride the bus, carpool, beg mom for the minivan, ride a bicycle to work, etc. Save a few bucks for a couple weeks, and it will save you alot of money in the long run by having patience with getting it fixed properly.
Owning a DSM is not for poor people. These cars will suck more money than a Dyson vacuum. Endless Suck = Empty Wallet. If you need a picture to get what I am talking about, here is one I just made for you!
Just looking to help you save money in the long run.
Good luck,
Tim Zimmer
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Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
Hahaha!!! Ask mom for the mini van. Man, I'm 35 years old. If I have to go asking mom to borrow her mini van (which she does have one), I'm in worse shape than I thought. It's not about my spending habits. It's about needing more money from this sucky job. It's called spending 11 years in the military, breaking my foot, having to get out with a severance pay, and find work in the civilian world doing stuff I have no experience in and waiting to go to college in the fall. Having to pay bills, share one vehicle with the g/f and drive her to and from work way out on the beach and then all the way across town to get to my job, etc.
If I had another ride like I use to have it wouldn't be a big deal but this is my dd. And the reason I'm having to go thru this crap to begin with is because of ANOTHER clutch that decided to spit out a spring. So I'm a lil gun shy with disc that have springs cause I've puked enough of em. The clutch in this one is supposedly new as well.
I know the Act puck disc is cheap but I wouldn't think it'd be poor quality. Just a more harsh ride as far as engagement is concerned. I'd spend some money I'll be getting for school to get this done but the money just isn't here yet.
If you do go with a puck disk, the ACT unsprung 4-puck would be the best unsprung currently. It just chews the hell out of flywheel friction surfaces -- again, a good reason for the ACT streetlite, or stock flywheel.
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Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
Is this car your DD? If so, I'd suggest getting away from thinking about the why's and focus on the how's...How well is an unsprung disc going to behave in stop and go traffic? How annoyed am I going to be with the extra noise from the drivetrain? How much track time is it going to see vs. street driving? How much drivability can I give up for the sake of performance?
If you can do the clutch swap yourself, and you want to maintain some amount of driving ease and 'civility' as the car inches closer to that line between street and track, then I'd say stick with a sprung puck disc and call it good. You get the added grip and easier engagement, and you can replace it yourself if it does break.
____________________________
Matthew : Evo316g + Keydiver + e85 = Permagrin
Yeah, it's my DD. Been into these cars since about 97 but have never used an unsprung disc before. Not worried about drivetrain noise at all. But to get back on topic, I'm really just debating between the 4 or 6 puck. Just wondering which would be easier for the street. I do like to have as much knowledge as possible about what this does and what that does and why. I've done many many MANY clutch jobs. More than I care to really. It's really about the one job on a dsm that I'm totally sick of doing. I'd rather change out a 1g clutch pedal assembly on a daily basis right now.
Just trying to decide the 2 disc but at the moment, I just have conflicting info about which one is more harsh to drive. The 4 or 6 puck. If I don't get a clear answer on this by tomorrow, I'm just gonna be going with a 4 puck and call it good. Doubt it'll be the last clutch I ever buy anyway and just one more thing that I'll be able to learn about I guess. Just prefer it being from someone who already has the knowledge about em to save me the headaches.
I would assume they're both the same price if you're trying to choose between them? I found a thread that you might find helpful. 4 Puck Vs 6 Puck.... What is the difference? - Mitsubishi Eclipse Forums It would seem the 4 puck is better for grip and the 6 puck is less harsh for drivability. to me this seems to hold true to the formula used to find pressure, that is:
Pressure=Force/Surface Area
assuming the same clamping force is being applied, the 4 puck will have greater pressure.
no problem if you want my opinion, 20 bucks is 20 bucks and price is kind of important. a slightly cheaper clutch with a little more holding pressure sounds pretty good to me. I don't drive your car every day though, that's just my humble opinion.
Well, my job shorted me some money on my check today (gotta love that) so I was really short on cash. I was JUST about to order the 6 puck after that thread link that was posted but my check swayed me to do otherwise. That $20 difference is a lot right now. I'm hoping it works out good for me. I'll be sure to leave a review when I get it in, take pics, etc. etc. Sure SOMEONE is gonna wanna know how well it works out for when they have this same debate as me.
Just pulled my clutch and as suspected, popped another spring. Clutch is brand new (although I don't know the brand since it was installed just before I bought the car), and all the bell housing bolts were secure.
Last edited by v8s_are_slow; 11-06-2009 at 10:39 AM.
Reason: Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping"
my new clutch is giving me trouble, if you want more details read my thread "need help, slave cylinder related." do you think you could post a link to the 4 puck clutch you were talking about. if I need another new clutch, I'm not getting another stock replacement.
Made me rethink my launch completely haha.
if you want my opinion, 20 bucks is 20 bucks and price is kind of important. a slightly cheaper clutch with a little more holding pressure sounds pretty good to me. I don't drive your car every day though, that's just my humble opinion.
