Rebuilding my trans. What parts to order???

[STARION]

hi, I am going to be rebuilding my trans ( its from a 1G FWD turbo) and I don't know what parts to order. I will list my problems, and hopefully you can tell me what I need:

~1st always grinds and 2nd grinds often (more at high RPM's).
~3rd and 4th grind about one out of 20 times (hardly ever).

basically, I'm looking for the bare minimum of parts to order that will hold up fairly well, I don't want to order anything that is unnecessary for the power I'm making (I have/ (will have) stage 1 mods+ FMIC+ 16G= 300ish HP)

I was just going to order the parts needed from Team rip (if there is somewhere cheaper thats just as good, I'm all ears), so if you can even tell me the specific name of the product they carry, that would help. (In all honesty, I'm not exactly sure which parts fit a plain old 1G FWD trans, because the way that team rip lists the products is a tad confusing)

I'm picking up a bmtranny LSD to put in during the rebuild too (please god, don't start an argument about this, I have read all the info about it and decided to get one).


thanks

oh, and I remember someone talking about how a 90 trans isn't worth rebuilding and that 99% of tranny rebuilds done by the local (non-DSM) shops are screwed up. Does this apply only to the AWD trannies?

 

[DSM_Drew]

I wouldn't trust any local tranny shop with my DSM tranny. This applies to both FWD and AWD. Most shops don't understand the problems that are common/unique to DSM's driven for performance. I'd suggest TRE, BM Tranny, or John Shepherd.

I can't answer your question specificly because I'm no tranny expert. However I have read up on DSM trannies a lot while deciding what to do with mine when I finally have the money. Mine has some grind problems but doesn't sound as bad as yours. I'm planning for the double synchro 2nd gear, EVO shift forks and the steel shift rails. The gear grind is usually the result of one of these parts being worn out. I'd also like to get the GVR4 first gear. You could get double synchros all the way around, but thats probably overkill unless you're racing and really beating the tranny.

Call or email one of the shops I mentioned. They could help you out a lot more and tell you what you should get, what would be overkill, and why.

 

[ILOSE]

You will hear a lot of BS from people on the internet abou thow you shouldn't build this or that. The problem with most of this information is that it is not based on experience, but rather a poorly based judgement from someone else.

So having said that go ahead and rebuild that tranny. You don't need a double synchro and all that hyped up stuff. A fresh rebuild will run just as good as any other tranny.

Parts I would buy if I were you, All new bearings. The old ones when worn will cause shaft movement that'll wear out the new parts prematurely. Order 1st through 5th synchros, keys and springs.
Inspect the hub and sleeves while the tranny is apart and replace as neccessary. Inspect the gears and if there is minor damage to the edges you can take a bit and smooth them out, just don't over do it. To seperate the gear packs, go to the local dealer and see if a mechanic will seperate the packs for you. Most of the time you can find someone to do it free of charge. Only takes a few minutes. Do not try to take them apart with any sort of basic tools, you will break the gears they are pretty brittle. Save the old bearing inner race to use when installing the new bearings to strike against.

I would buy these parts from a local dealer that has a dsm club discount deal if possible. The reason is tha with mitsubishi they changed parts and part numbers so many times that it is rediculous. It is much easier to just go up there and re-order the correct part and swap them out then to dal with shipping and all none face to face transactions. My preference, but what ever floats your boat. See if you can get a printout of the 90' internals and go from there.

 

[DSM_Drew]

If I'm going through the trouble and exspense of rebuilding my tranny I'm going to upgrade the worn out parts while I'm at it so they will last longer next time.

 

[STARION]

well, yes and no, because, I may just be completely shattering the tranny one day while racing no matter if it has the stock replacement parts or the expensive upgrade parts. So, for me it has to be sort of a compromise between the two.

oh, and yeah, it was pretty much going to get rebuilt by me and this other guy (rebuilds ford automatics and is very knowledgable) no matter what, so I will be learning a bit too.

 

[DSM_Drew]

Yes you can still break your tranny with the upgrade parts. Although the point of those parts is that they are stronger and an improved design. Certain parts in the stock tranny are known for being weak, breaking, wearing out fast, such as 2nd gear synchros, aluminum shift forks and rails. The new parts are made stronger and have better wear pads etc, so they will last longer and hold up to increased power better. They are not just "hype".

Of course I'm not saying you absolutely need them or telling you to buy them, I was just throwing it out as food for thought. I live on a budget so I know all about compromising too.

 

[ILOSE]

Originally posted by DSM_Drew
Certain parts in the stock tranny are known for being weak, breaking, wearing out fast, such as 2nd gear synchros, aluminum shift forks and rails. The new parts are made stronger and have better wear pads etc, so they will last longer and hold up to increased power better. They are not just "hype".

The only "weak" part that should be of concern is the shift forks. I forgot to mention that above. But even with that, If you are breaking parts in your tranny (which is new or rebuilt) then it is probably one of two reasons. You either don't know how to drive properly (most people cannot face that reality), or you didn't install the parts 100% correctly. You must first understand why a certain part wears prematurely or breaks before you just put in new parts and think everything is OK.
I have both thte synchros from the factory and the TRE synchros. Now jsut from the looks of the 2 you cannot tell the difference. They say they are made with upgraded material, but what exactly is it? They do not offer that information, so you make the call. Please no more guessing or information from what you may have heard. We all hear a lot of stuff and some of it isn't worth passing on.

 

[NJGSX96]

The rails don't break but the ears do. The rails are super strong. Trust me, I had to cut one. When shifting, a lot of people force the gears or shift with too much force to try and shift faster. That is how the forks and ears break.
I spoke to Jon at TRE and he says his syncros have a higher.... I want to saw brass or copper content but I am probably wrong. I can't remember... whatever it is, he says it gives better wear characteristics. How true this is, who knows as I have both his and OEM and they appear the same. I do know that as the years progressed, so did the quality of the syncro. A good "upgrade" for syncros is buying these "better" syncros.
Regarding the LSD you want, it really isn't that bad. For $200 is a steal IMO. Coupled with the halfshaft mod, it is a great mod for the money.

As for what I think you should include in the rebuild, it all depends on what year 1G FWD trans you have. 93/94 had the double 2nd syncro already. if you don't have that, it is up to you and your budget if you want it. Regardless, replace 1st-4th syncros and inspect 5th and reverse, replacing them if they fail the inspection. Replace all 4 bearings (2 input and 2 intermediate shaft) and all 4 seals. Also, pick up a trans filter screen. Also replace all the little stupid throw away parts, like C-clips, end nuts, roll pins, etc. Inspect all the hub/sleeve and all the gears for wear. If you have the DSM CD, all of the specs can be found in the overhaul section. if you do not, I can get them all for you. Just the basic rebuild should run you no more than $250-300, depending on what year trans you have.

Also, I would recommend buy upgraded forks if you plan to shift fast or shift hard. It is extra money, but the peice of mind is worth it. Again, this mod depends on your wallet and whether you think you will need it or not.

 

[DSM_Drew]

Please no more guessing or information from what you may have heard. We all hear a lot of stuff and some of it isn't worth passing on.

I don't see where I have given any incorrect advice/opinion. In fact I advised him to contact one of the well known DSM tranny shops to find out what he really needs and why. I also stated that I am no expert and simply explained what I'm planning to do since I am in a similar situation. So settle down.

 

[zac83]

if your going to build a tranny right, i would recomend double syncros if you shift hard. most of the DSM problems i see arent from the fork ears, but from the fork breaking near the gear selection contact points... if you can find forks made of a stronger material than white metal, i would recomend thoes for hard shifters too.

as far as people dogging the 2 piece syncros: anyone ever wonder why the WC 'world class' tranny that they sell in stangs/camaros hold up more than the base models? ill go ahead and tell you that the only difference is double blocker/syncros in the WC tranny. hows that for proof?

anyway, stop the hating, build it like you can afford... unless your john force, i dont think you'll need the stoutest tranny ever, these thigns were made to last.

 

[DSSA]

Originally posted by ILOSE
You will hear a lot of BS from people on the internet abou thow you shouldn't build this or that. The problem with most of this information is that it is not based on experience, but rather a poorly based judgement from someone else.

So having said that go ahead and rebuild that tranny. You don't need a double synchro and all that hyped up stuff. A fresh rebuild will run just as good as any other tranny.

Let me tell you a little story about a pot, a kettle, and the color black...

I have probably torn down and built 20-30 transmissions at this point, and I can tell you that *YES* the upgraded parts do work. Just doing a basic rebuild is fine if you have a low-powered car that you mostly just daily-drive. However, if you're racing the car, putting down a lot of power, and/or just generally hard on transmissions these internal upgrades make a tremendous difference.

Case in point is my younger brother. He abuses the #### out of transmissions. One season he went through 2 stock center diffs., and then disintegrated a 3rd gearset in two trips to the track.

Two Christmases ago, I put together a "built" transmission for him. His car ran faster this season by over 1/2 second (even dumping raw gas out the exhaust it was in such a poor state of tune (11.5) as the computer was taking a dump, and on only 20 psi). and the transmission has yet to be dropped once.

The BM Tranny center diff we used in it has held up flawlessly, and shifting is much better with the 2nd gear setup we used. 3-4 has yet to break or lose teeth, and the forks haven't give us any problems.

If you think that BM, TRE, and Shep build transmissions for their own cars as well when there's no advantage, you're the one sharing information based on "poorly based judgement". I refuse to use anything less than a built trans. in any of my cars.

The money you save in the rebuild usually ends up costing you later when a part lets loose and runs through the transmission wiping out 90% of the other parts in there.

Transmissions are similar to stereo systems as well. Even if you use the "top-of-the-line" parts in one, it's no guarantee that it's going to sound/work well. The small tricks you can do, and assembling it the proper way are a good portion of the overall results.


I also see a lot of people trying to figure out the "upgrade" internals only to have the transmission work poorly or not at all. It's not like every transmission is just a simple "throw in the good stuff and slap it back together process". I made this mistake a few years ago. Wrong year/model shaft with the wrong year/model gear and the wrong year/model rails/forks and $500-$600 in rebuild parts go down the drain.

When in doubt, stick with the experts, unless you have the time and money to possibly throw away during the learning process.

 

[NJGSX96]

DSSA makes many, MANY, excellent points. However, you fail to realize how inherently cheap DSMers are. When was the last time you saw a post of "Need new tranny, money no object."? I completely agree about upgrading the internals, and all of my cars run upgraded transmissions (I wouldn't have it any other way), as well as those I have worked on.

Where I disagree with you is on the parts mismatch happening in looking for the "upgrade" parts. Maybe for shift rails and certain gearsets but definitely shouldn't be problem if you are just looking for a better syncro or upgraded 2nd. I have built quite a few transmissions now and see where you are coming from on certain parts, but not on everything. What we are in agreement with is leave it to the experts if you are in any doubt when you want to upgrade.

 

[DSSA]

Originally posted by NJGSX96
DSSA makes many, MANY, excellent points. However, you fail to realize how inherently cheap DSMers are. When was the last time you saw a post of "Need new tranny, money no object."? I completely agree about upgrading the internals, and all of my cars run upgraded transmissions (I wouldn't have it any other way), as well as those I have worked on.

Where I disagree with you is on the parts mismatch happening in looking for the "upgrade" parts. Maybe for shift rails and certain gearsets but definitely shouldn't be problem if you are just looking for a better syncro or upgraded 2nd. I have built quite a few transmissions now and see where you are coming from on certain parts, but not on everything. What we are in agreement with is leave it to the experts if you are in any doubt when you want to upgrade.

Yes, I *fully* realize that DSMers are cheap. I deal with hundreds of them a week. If you're one that (like I stated) abuse, race, or putting a lot of power through the trans. which is cheaper? A trans. that lasts all or a majority of the season? Or one you patch together until something finally goes through it and wipes out every gear in there? Yes, initially, cost is cheaper to throw in a few syncros. However, if syncros are worn, the meshing teeth on the gears and hub/slider are typically worn as well. Sure, you can throw new syncros in there and call it a day, however, this usually masks the problem for only so long.

You are correct in the fact that 2nd gear shouldn't be a problem(However, if you have an early 90 is *can* be). But where did I state anything about 2nd gear in particular? 2nd gear is not the sum of a trans. rebuild.

The other issue as I stated before is the assembly of the transmission. If someone thinks that it's as simple as "pressing gears on shaft, putting shafts/rails/diffs/etc. back in case, and bolting the cases together" their sorely mistaken.

Case is point is a certain DSMer from NJ who is pretty well known to be familiar with these cars (and doing quite a few odd-ball/creative things with them out of the ordinary). He's got good mechnical skills, and rebuilt his transmission after a failure...only to have it rip itself apart 2 or three more successive times until he figured out what he was doing wrong. And I would be so brave as to bet that he's got more mechanical ability that a majority of the people on this site.

 

[Tevenor]

For those of you who don't know, DSSA is the same guy most of you buy your parts from. If you have done any business with Conicelli Mitsu, you probably have talked to DSSA at one point or another. In other words, he knows what the fock he is talking about.

If you want to be hard on your cars, make sure you build it right the first time. This should be everyone's mantra no matter how cheap you are. Yes, lesser mods, rebuilds, etc can last just fine. You make them last longer by not driving the car so hard. So if you are more of a show car than a true go car, than the standard rebuild is just fine.

However, anyone who really pushes these cars in any form of racing, should know by now that being cheap at one end, will cost you double after it blows.

 

[NJGSX96]

I thought that was who DSSA is. I just wasn't sure and didn't want to make assumptions. He is one of the few DSMers here that I pay attention to when it comes to advice and now I know why.

I didn't mean to bring up specific parts (like 2nd) as being considered a tranny rebuild. When I brought up 2nd gear, it was meant as only an example of a part I didn't think was difficult to find the "upgrade" for, responding to when you mentioned you get people trying to figure the upgrades out. By no means do I think it is the sum of a rebuild. Nor do I think throwing in a few syncros and calling it a day is the way to go either. Like you said, it is a lot more than just picking whatever parts and slapping it all together.

And I know exactly who you are talking about in NJ. I don't think his mechanical ability is the problem, but rather that he doesn't listen or take advice well at all. It is ALWAYS his way or no way, regardless of who tells him what. Saying that he has more mechanical ability than most on this site is an understatement. Hell, I have more mechanic ability that most on this site and I think I am mechanically retarded sometimes.

No matter what happens or what is said, people will always try to skimp on parts/upgrades to save money. It is just the way it is. I gave up a long time ago trying to get people to do it right. Now I just tell them what they want to hear and send them on their way. It is good to see through this thread that some people still see it the way I do.

 

[ILOSE]

Originally posted by STARION
basically, I'm looking for the bare minimum of parts to order that will hold up fairly well, I don't want to order anything that is unnecessary for the power I'm making (I have/ (will have) stage 1 mods+ FMIC+ 16G= 300ish HP)

While I agree with many of the things posted by some of you. YOU Are greatly missing the one factor that this post is based upon. And that is the quote above. 300HP is not aww inspiring nor is it harsh when driven properly.
If you bang gears all the time and are just plain stupid when you shift then I really don't care what you put in the tranny or who builds it. IT WILL BREAK! And of course the weakest link will go first.

DSSA: My view is exactly in line with yours, you just explained it more.

But again, you may have missed starions post. Sometimes, if a guy has a goal of 12 sec passes there isn't a need for a T-66 to get there.

Lastly, when I said he did not need the upgraded parts, IE double synchro, it's because those are not must have parts. Would they be nice to have? possibly but he does not "HAVE" to get them. That is all I was getting at.
As for the misinformation thing, If a guy buys X clutch and rides the hell out of it, then starts telling people how bad of a clutch it is. Because he smoked it. Is he in the right? I would say not, but it would still get people to sway in their views of that part even though it was entirely his fault.

OK I am done babbling!

 

[NJGSX96]

Originally posted by ILOSE

While I agree with many of the things posted by some of you. YOU Are greatly missing the one factor that this post is based upon. And that is the quote above. 300HP is not aww inspiring nor is it harsh when driven properly.
If you bang gears all the time and are just plain stupid when you shift then I really don't care what you put in the tranny or who builds it. IT WILL BREAK! And of course the weakest link will go first.

My bone stock, never raced, never launched, 1996 GSX transmission lasted a whole 40K miles before it started grinding 2nd and 3rd. I got a rebuild done by a local shop (because I didn't know better at the time) and that lasted 5K miles before 2nd started grinding again. When I had a friend rebuild it with me, the 2nd and 3rd speed gears were all messed up. I replaced everything with updated parts and 4 years, 60K miles, modded to around 300HP, and close to 200 passes down the 1/4 mile later, she still shifts smooth with no grinding.

300HP may not sound like a lot, but on a tranny that is meant for 195-210HP from the factory and is a POS to start with.... I'd say the upgraded internals are worth it if you want it to last.

 

[AWDGSXownsU]

Ryan Fellows at RnR racing builds very good trannies. 300 for labor plus parts. also try Road Race Services excellent shop for engines and trannies.

Manny
92 GSX

 

[Zerocygnal]

There is a master rebuild kit available at http://drivetrain.com/mistsubishKM4_5RWD.html

2.0L Turbo 1989-97 5speed KM215/F5M33 MRK100336 68

I have no experience with them, but it was the best price I could find as this is what I have to do in March while the Talon is being painted. Except with AWD

Even if your goal is 300HP daily driven, it's as harsh as a drag strip because you shift that much more. How often do you really race?

Possibly upgrade the syncro's for logetivity if you can squeeze it.