Transmission/Diff Problem - Help Needed

[4G63dsmpwr]

Bought a 90 Talon AWD locally. Previous owner did plenty of hard launches (5500RPM, etc) regularly. He said car gradually stopped moving when letting up the clutch pedal, and engaging the clutch. My thoughts were a worn clutch, slipping because of all the 5K RPM launches...

Towed car to garage. Car would shift into 1st-5th gear, and reverse perfectly fine. Clutch pedal pressure and all hydraulics looked good, not losing any fluid, etc. When in gear, and you engage the clutch - a clanking/clunking noise started coming from the transmission area - followed by NO movement.

When you let the clutch enagage, you can almost feel it grab a little bit - but there is no forward or reverse movement - none. No matter what RPM, etc - no movement. You can sit there with the car in gear, and clutch enagaged (pedal completely up) and nail the accelerator - won't move an inch. This is every gear, even reverse.

The clutch disk and pressure plate both appear to be FINE. The splines on the clutch disk are fine, and also on the input shaft. I think the power is making it to the input shaft, but getting lost somewhere before turning the wheels - what could cause this?

Center diff?

Anyone with any experience or information about this it would be greatly appreciated. Are there any tests I can perform, to rule out any options? I was thinking the problem is some type of differential or splines somewhere...?

Thanks very much!

 

[98eclipseRS]

... ..

 

[4G63dsmpwr]

Can you please explain further - I'm not understanding how this works...?

If my tranny is "toast" then what exactly is broken inside? I can feel all gears engage - the transmission shifts PERFECT. Feels like something is slipping after that - what part inside could cause this?

Its affecting ALL 4 wheels - from what I'm reading a center diff/front diff would only affect 2 wheels...?

Definately feels like a differential/spline problem - I can't take anything else apart to investigate further? I just hate junking an entire tranny - and never having *ANY* clue what actually failed inside...

Thanks alot for the post though

 

[98eclipseRS]

.... ......

 

[Nanan]

...

If you blow your center diff you won't move. If you blow your front diff you will have rwd. If you blow your transfer case you will drag the rear wheels. If you blow your rear diff you will drag your rear wheels.

It sounds like your center diff is suspect to having blown. I blew my center diff earlier this summer and damn near wrecked the car when the rear wheels locked up while I was doing 70mph on the InterState. I now have a TRE BUILT AWD tranny with a SpeedDesign 4 spider center diff. This tranny setup can take a crapload more then the stock setup did but it cost about $2.4k.

 

[4G63dsmpwr]

Ok thanks for the reply Nanan you cleared a few things up, and its good to talk with someone who's had the problem before

I'll trust your opinion - if my center diff WAS blown, how would I go about taking the tranmission apart, and seeing if thats the problem?

If it turns out to be the center diff - whats the cheapest way to replace it? Or does this mean the tranny is junk?

Thanks.

 

[98eclipseRS]

^^^ I stand corrected.

 

[Nanan]

The VFAQ has a good writup on the center diff replacement. http://www.geocities.com/spencerhut/talon/center_differential_repair.htm

Depending on how bad the center diff is it could be $100-1600. At worst case you need a new center diff outright, usually you just need new spiders and bearings, really you will need to take it apart to find out.

Also from vfaq, http://www.twingles.com/ideck/rebuild3/dretranny.htm


I pulled my tranny apart when the center diff broke, that big tube with the gear on the end was stripped toothless and the spiders were ground to dust. Just fixing that problem would of been about $300 for parts, I decided on just doing the whole tranny while it was apart and I had the money to burn.

 

[4G63dsmpwr]

I don't understand 100-1600? Can I just buy a used center diff, and install it in my tranny or...?

Thanks a ton for all the info - you seem to know your stuff really well.

I'm looking for the cheapest way to fix this car - my only other car is RWD, and this is the winter beater

Did I remove the tranny for nothing??? Could I have investiagted this further, with it still in the car?

When I start dissassembling the tranny are there any tell-tale signs of a bad center diff?

THANKS

 

[Nanan]

Tell tale signs will be the diff sounds like a coffe can full of bolts when you shake it. The center diff isnt an open housing so you really can not see visually if it is broken unless the input/output shaft is sheared which is rare.

Sure you can buy a used center diff, I personally have never seen someone just selling a used one that wasnt screwed up but if you do find one good for you.

The price is that variable due to the extent of how bad it is, broken spiders ~100ish, busted housing ~1000, busted input/output shaft ~120, bearings(replace these) ~40, cross shaft ~160. These prices are not set, mitsu tends to sell some parts at msrp but others at cost depending on which shop you hit up.

You can also get aftermarket diffs but they are usually in the 1200-1800 range.

The first link I posted goes into detail on the usual break, spiders and input/output shaft. This is the likely thing for you but really you wont know till you have it apart.



Looking back at your original post, when you let the clutch out in gear does it give any inclination that the engine gains load? Like does the engine bog? If the engine does not bog at all when you let the clutch out then it sounds like it could be the center diff or something else like the main input shaft being sheared(you could tell by the fact you can pull the stub out).

 

[DSM90AWD]

Another possibility is a broken rear axle. Happend to me with my stock 3-bolt. Car would move for a little bit but then the VC would heat up and no power. Unfortunately at the same time my center diff was also damaged (costly 6K launch ).

I personally would not buy a used center diff unless I knew the person. Mitsu sells a rebuild replacing the side gears and pinion and there is a VFAQ on the repair procedure

 

[Nanan]

Another possibility is a broken rear axle. Happend to me with my stock 3-bolt. Car would move for a little bit but then the VC would heat up and no power. Unfortunately at the same time my center diff was also damaged (costly 6K launch ).

I personally would not buy a used center diff unless I knew the person. Mitsu sells a rebuild replacing the side gears and pinion and there is a VFAQ on the repair procedure

With a broken axle at any corner the car would still drive or at worst lurch a bit unless the VC was dead.

I would not recommend using a used center diff either.

That is the first link I posted to the vfaq.

 

[DSM90AWD]

With a broken axle at any corner the car would still drive or at worst lurch a bit unless the VC was dead

Really? You have first hand experience in this? I do.

With the D/S rear axle snapped inside the rear I drove most of the way home from the track at 25mph (the fastest I could go) until the VC heatup so much the car would just not go any further (like the clutch was in). Let it cool down for 10mins and repeat.

Though a clanging in the tranny area could mean a broken gear (broke 5th once), transfer case main bearing went (yep happened to me too).

Do not drive it like that. I learned my $$$lesson

 

[4G63dsmpwr]

Thanks very much for all the replies

I'm going to start dis-assembling the transmission tomorrow, and inspect the center differential situation. How long do you think it'll take with the tranny out of the car?

DSM90AWD: I don't think its a broken rear axle due to the fact the front wheels didn't seem to try an drag the car - it seemed as if there wasn't any power getting to the axles/transfer case/etc. Let me know what you think, thanks.

When you let the clutch pedal UP the motor does bog a LITTLE bit - not much. Almost feels like it's TRYING to go, but something is stopping it or the power is getting lost somewhere. When you let the clutch pedal up - its definately engaging and you hear the AWFUL clunking/clanking noise followed by zero movement...

Alright so basically I'm going to check out the center diff, and see whats wrong. Does the rebuild kit usually cover what breaks inside them or is it a random thing?

Just trying to find a cheap way to fix this.

 

[rabi42]

The center diff in my transmission crapped out on me. The gears shifted just fine, but the car didn't wanna move. It would lockup for a second and lurch and make horrible noises. I just bought a JDM transmission from a VR-4 and put that in. Of course, I first got a broken transmission and then a non usable transmission from an EVO 1, but third times a charm.

 

[DSM90AWD]

DSM90AWD: I don't think its a broken rear axle due to the fact the front wheels didn't seem to try an drag the car - it seemed as if there wasn't any power getting to the axles/transfer case/etc. Let me know what you think, thanks.

My car never "boundup" with the damaged center diff unless I was makign sharp low speed left-right turns. Severe binding (as you describe) may just be a broken gear or the transfer case. When they (xfer case) goes from fluid loss, the the whole unit siezes up.

Does the rebuild kit usually cover what breaks inside them or is it a random thing?

The kit replaces all the internals, but you will need a shimming washers if your originals are damaged (likely they will be). If the gears have damaged the housing itself, may need to have it machined or clean it up yourself. The VFAQ does a good job explaining the procedure which can be done with the tranny still in the car (saves you several hours labor ).

 

[Jackson]

I am going to hijack this thread fro my problem Along with the appearance of clutch slipping, I also have the symptom that if the car is in first on a slight hill, the car will roll backwards regardless of it being in gear. I replaced the clutch, torced it to spec and it still is slipping. This leads me to the tranny SO do I have to rip it off again and check and if I check, do I just followed my technical service manual or should I bring it to a tranny shop and let a professional inspect it?