auto transmisons faster manuals

[daltah]

i herd that a race auto would beat a race manual anytime of the week.although stock a manual is faster than a automatic but my ques is what do you have to do and how much is it to do to a automatic tranny so that is faster than a manual?

 

[TurboBlue]

the best thing to do is contact Level 10 in NJ. They are the best Auto tranny people in the country. Unfortnuately, for a tranny built by them with a high stall speed TC, is around 3400 bucks, plus install, but level 10 is the best thing i can tell you

 

[poet]

it all depends on the driver

 

[notdisturbed]

If you look at any pro drag racers they all run built autos. Reason being, more consistent shifts. A good built auto will beat a stick shift any day of the week. Once you get into that realm you approach milli-second shifting differences, and thats why the auto wins, it can shift in the milli-second ranges. Sorry, but the muscles in anyones arm just will not shift that fast.

 

[J4Y5iN]

Yeah... autos will always shift faster, but they're just not as fun to drive. Not to mention they take little to absolutly no skill to drive... which is cool when you get to the point where it's not so much about the driver as it is the car, but I'm wiling to bet that not too many of the people here are quite there. I say go stick until you need a trialer.

 

[roadtalontsi]

race autos will beat a stick yes, but mainly becuase of consistency a computer will never miss a shift, a human might. i have a shift kit in my lifted bronco, it cut my 12sec 0-60 down to 9sec z in a bronco...its sweet. i can take civics... ne ways the only problem with auto's are they have to be set up to shift at the right times, stock ones sure dont, and most auto's (stock) cant handle jack for power. as for me i like my manual talon tsi, another rearson the manuals beat the auto's is manuals have an extra gear which basically give a manual 3 gears in the same speed range as 2 in an auto. i know for a fact on street manual owns, cuz i was in my friends stick civic with cold air intake, who raced some punk in an automatic that had rims, lights, exhaust, intake, tires, drop and probably more then the eye could see and got rapad by a stick civic with intake.... i love civics with exhaust they crack me up

-Rem 91' eagle talon tsi fwd

 

[dsmnelskels]

I have a manual and I raced a talon tsi with an auto and he spanked me 3 out of 5 races, but I'm thinking it was because my spark plugs were going bad.

 

[notdisturbed]

Originally posted by roadtalontsi
ne ways the only problem with auto's are they have to be set up to shift at the right times, stock ones sure dont, and most auto's (stock) cant handle jack for power. as for me i like my manual talon tsi, another rearson the manuals beat the auto's is manuals have an extra gear which basically give a manual 3 gears in the same speed range as 2 in an auto.

Actually, if you go and take a look at 99% of the auto's that come stock today they are built to take a good amount more HP and TQ than the manuals. For example, since i am a ford person(flame all you want), a stock 4r70w automatic is built to take quite a bit more HP&TQ than the stock T-5 manual. How much more? Approx. 70 more HP and 150ft.lbs. torque. Why? Because in most modern cars the automatics are broadly used across the line. So the trannys have to be built to be put on a 120 HP grocery getter one day, and then strapped to a 280 HP sports car the next. Sure, the shift points blow ass, but that can always be corrected. The problem in a stock auto is the amount of time between when the computer grabs the gear and when it releases. In this time period engine RPM's drop and you quickly drop out of your power band. To prevent this you install a valve body shift kit, or a built tranny. These mods move the shift points very close together, so close in fact that the relationship between the two points is only a few hundred milliseconds. This is MUCH faster than even the best manual driver can apply the clutch, shift, release the clutch and give the car gas. A valve body mod also has a tendancy to firm up shifts, unlike in a stock auto where the shift points are meant to be very soft and slip slightly so that grandma doesnt have to feel the car shifting. Unfortunately, all that slipping mixed with a high horsepower car has the tendancy to eventually destroy the transmission, as is happening in turboblues case(i know him personally). Another top notch mod that will add years to your auto is a transmission cooler. Auto transmissions have a tendancy to run VERY hot(due to those soft shifts discussed earlier), and the stock one line cooler just doesnt cut it. A good tranny cooler with or without a fan will do wonders to keep an auto going for a longer time
You are slightly mistaken on the gear issue. In a manual you would have 4 main acceleration gears and one overdrive gear(in a 5 speed), whereas in an automatic you would have three acceleration and one overdrive(in a 4 speed auto, exSM). Also in argument though we leave out the ever important issues of torque converter stall speeds and final ratios. But, lets save that all for another day.
As for your civic experience(HAHAHAHAHA....rice is funny), you have a great story, but a bit of an overstatement. In a stock for stock race yes a manual "owns", but with some work on the auto the auto then proceeds to "own". Also, in reference to the race itself, we are speaking truly stock for stock. One car had an intake(yay), and the other had appearance mods and some "performance" stuff(weight) and the disadvantage of the stock auto tranny. So, yes, in this stock for stock example the stick wins.....alotta friggin surprise there. Please, lets just remember though, it was still two civics, and that can hardly be called a race.

 

[InFlames]

Aren't we forgetting about clutchless manual trannies? What about a nice Liberty 5spd or a G-force 2000 clutchless? These are all used by pro draggers up against top notch autos. These trannies offer just as much consistency as the autos too. Off the top of my head, there is an rx7 that uses one and I think the D&D performance mustang is still running a liberty. And there are plenty more...

 

[notdisturbed]

Originally posted by InFlames
Aren't we forgetting about clutchless manual trannies? What about a nice Liberty 5spd or a G-force 2000 clutchless? These are all used by pro draggers up against top notch autos. These trannies offer just as much consistency as the autos too. Off the top of my head, there is an rx7 that uses one and I think the D&D performance mustang is still running a liberty. And there are plenty more...

Were not forgetting about them, its just the feasability of this setup in a street car situation is non-existant. The prices for both of these systems is what keeps them out of the hands of regular folks and in the hands of pro-drag racers. These trannies do offer awesome shift times, but we do have to factor in the human equation, which is always a failing point. On a fully auto tranny we eliminate the human factor and therefore eliminate even more instance for failure and inconsistancy.

 

[InFlames]

Yea, I guess you're right. But if your a good driver (like most pro draggers are then wouldn't there be an adventage?

 

[notdisturbed]

Originally posted by InFlames
Yea, I guess you're right. But if your a good driver (like most pro draggers are then wouldn't there be an adventage?

Well, to be honest, no. In the issue here its a matter of milli and micro seconds. We really start to look at how long it takes the person to either push the button, flip the paddle, whatever the setup is, still has a human factor. While these systems are still incredibly faster than a standard manual transmission they are still not as fast as a computers microprocessor. Also, in these instances the consistency is still not as good as a fully auto tranny. The computer is consistent and dead on each time, while a human will have almost imperceptible, but still time affecting, inconsistencies. These inconsistencies can be the difference in running a 6.507 and a 6.504 though. It might seem minor to all of us, but to someone competing for a million dollar prize ".003" matters all the world.

 

[J4Y5iN]

Well, back to the street where most of us dwell. I still say that a stick is a lot more fun to drive. ;-)

 

[notdisturbed]

Originally posted by J4Y5iN
Well, back to the street where most of us dwell. I still say that a stick is a lot more fun to drive. ;-)

And on this, you would be very much correct.

 

[johnfsmith]

Originally posted by J4Y5iN
Yeah... autos will always shift faster, but they're just not as fun to drive. Not to mention they take little to absolutly no skill to drive... which is cool when you get to the point where it's not so much about the driver as it is the car, but I'm wiling to bet that not too many of the people here are quite there. I say go stick until you need a trialer.

So your saying the it takes no skill to be a pro drag racer? Anyone can just hop in a pro dragster and run the same times? I find it hard to believe that it takes no skill!

 

[TurboBlue]

Just because someone owns an Automatic car, doesnt mean they cant drive a stick. Personally i baught my auto TSi, cause it was a Mint, Blue, 92 TSi with 80K on it, for 3K, Pretty cheap if i do say so myself. But as far as anything else in concerned, I have driven cars you people cant even dream about, cars with clutches so hard the average jo would stall them over and over and over agian. Ask NOtDisturbed, we know each other pretty well. The point is, dont say people with Autos have no skill when it comes to driving..it could just be that thay've driven sticks for so long, they got sick of it, which does happen a lot. Thanks

 

[notdisturbed]

Lets face it, the main reason a person would get an auto on a brand spanking new car is for convenience and ease of driving. Some people just dont like a stick that they have to be working with the whole time. This fact does not make them bad, or unskilled drivers. Quite on the contrary, it might just make the person better at other things. They may not be shifting the car, but it wont matter if they’re pulling away from you in the slalom on the auto-x track. There is still a certain finesse required to really work an auto if you plan to use it for street racing applications, and im sure TurboBlue would back me up on that. You have to learn when and where in the rev's you can throw the car into 2nd or 3rd to get into the power band for a race. You have to learn where each gear maxes out and take it to that level. Its not that it doesnt take any skill to drive an auto, its simply that it does take less. It takes less in that you can put it in drive, hit the gas, and go to the grocery store without worrying about anything but how to get there without hitting anyone.
Oh, and turboblue, "I have driven cars you people cant even dream about", sounds a TAD cocky. Im sure theres people on this board that have driven cars you cant even dream about. So dont be an ass to people, im sure everyone will appreciate you more. You don’t have to be cocky to get a point across.

 

[J4Y5iN]

I didn't mean to stir up a controvesy, and I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I meant what notdisturbed said, "you can put it in drive, hit the gas, and go..." That's all. I'm not saying that people who drive automatics have no skill because I realize there accelerating is not all the skill of driving. True driving is quite complex and does invlove more than just going. I'm sorry about getting everyone's feathers ruffled and thanks for not biting my head off notdisturbed.

 

[skawty]

i didnt read each post meticulusly however if it hasnt been mentioned already...an automatic loses like 20% of its hp trying to get it to the ground. they arent made to race...especially in small displacement engines. unless you go buy a real automatic tranny from level 10 etc. also id just like to add on a personal note...i raced an auotmatic NA car for 2 years. it ran low 15's it wasnt bad. but reguardless of what you think. you have no idea how hard it was to launch that thing once i started to mod it. it was hell to get a good start. because it barely even had enough power to scratch the tires a little. so by power braking in a sense once i installed a cai. i found that to launch the car perfectly you cant just floor both pedals. because the air fuel ratio gets really mest up. i had to hold the brake and put 1/4 throttle and nail the gas an release the breaks PERFECTLY it was much harder then the clutches ive owned. my launch varied up to .3 in the quarter depending on how i nailed the gas pedal and my timing. id of rather had a clutch...much easier to launch...

 

[J4Y5iN]

...makes sense. I already knew that if you just floor an auto it won't go as fast as if you "half" floor it then punch it. I had an auto '88 Grand Am (did you know that they made a turbo 2L in '88?)

 

[notdisturbed]

Originally posted by skawty
i didnt read each post meticulusly however if it hasnt been mentioned already...an automatic loses like 20% of its hp trying to get it to the ground. they arent made to race...especially in small displacement engines. unless you go buy a real automatic tranny from level 10 etc. also id just like to add on a personal note...i raced an auotmatic NA car for 2 years. it ran low 15's it wasnt bad. but reguardless of what you think. you have no idea how hard it was to launch that thing once i started to mod it. it was hell to get a good start. because it barely even had enough power to scratch the tires a little. so by power braking in a sense once i installed a cai. i found that to launch the car perfectly you cant just floor both pedals. because the air fuel ratio gets really mest up. i had to hold the brake and put 1/4 throttle and nail the gas an release the breaks PERFECTLY it was much harder then the clutches ive owned. my launch varied up to .3 in the quarter depending on how i nailed the gas pedal and my timing. id of rather had a clutch...much easier to launch...

If you had truthfully "raced" your car for 2 years you would have figured out that you really needed a higher stall torque converter to compete. With that you would have been able to move the car into the powerband and launch at that point. Lockup would need to be at the point where torque and HP begin to equal each other. In that sense you would have then been able to floor it and go. With a stock stall speed its fairly hard to lauch and the stall speed is probably 1-1.5k below the engines powerband. Car manufacturers do this to keep you from having to rev so high to get converter lockup and have worse gas mileage. Car companies are much more interested in getting your MPG up so the EPA will smile on them instead of making your car easy to drag race.
BTW- You raced a NA car with only a CAI for 2 years? Why? If you were truly interested in "racing" it wouldnt you have had more mods? Maybe you did, and you just didnt state them. I'm curious, thats all.