awd 5sd vs fwd auto

[awdcsm]

i have option to go either awd 5sd or fwd auto, what are the disadvantages and advantages between the two, i like shifting gears and getting amazing traction but i ve seen what some autos can do on the strip, less weight, no miss shifts and less broken parts never had an auto dsm yet but it looks like the future of dsmers are going auto. tell me what u think.

 

[Calan]

I would go with AWD any day, but I'm not that fond of FWD. I'm from old school RWD hotrods and FWD racers just seem weird to me. (No disrespect intended towards you FWD guys...it's just me)

But any way you slice it, getting 4 wheels to hook up is always better than two, once you hit a certain power level. Just my opinion of course.

 

[Tanro]

If you have a built engine you need a built transmission to handle the power either way. I have seen just as many people tear up a automatic DSM tranny as I have a 5spd. Yeah the auto is more durable but it seems more 5spd guys will send there tranny off to get a performance rebuild by TRE, Shep or someone else than auto guys.

 

[camfast]

It all depends on what you want to do with the car. If you want a fun street car, then a 5sp awd will be your best bet. If your building a street car with a lot of track duty and high power in mind, then auto all the way. Seems to me that you want a fun street car with good traction. Just get a 4 bolt rear with a 92 tranny (rebulid or upgraded) and your good to go. I vote for 5sp!

 

[Rob10_99]

Really, anything over 400fwhp is overkill because your spinning it no matter what size tire or how light your car is.
If your a 1320 car any type of advice you can get is absolutely not for a street car, suicide gutting/cage and no glass etc will throw out the weight issue.
As for anything more than a 16g car I don't think I could stand a 2wd car, even rwd it's a bit too much to chase traction, ie 240 guys.
I'd go with the awd and not trying to pull a 1.0 60' and you should be fine.

Really, anything over 400fwhp is overkill because your spinning it no matter what size tire or how light your car is.
If your a 1320 car any type of advice you can get is absolutely not for a street car, suicide gutting/cage and no glass etc will throw out the weight issue.
As for anything more than a 16g car I don't think I could stand a 2wd car, even rwd it's a bit too much to chase traction, ie 240 guys.
I'd go with the awd and not trying to pull a 1.0 60' and you should be fine.

 

[907gs-t]

I myself would love to own both platforms but right now I have a GS-T with an auto tranny & I like it.

 

[Phil1320]

Unless you're planning to build a Drag Strip car only, I'd opt for AWD and a 5 speed. Much more versatile platform. Definitely, as someone said, more fun to drive as well.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Even if your planning a dragstrip only car, I still recommend the AWD 5sp. While it's true that more people these days are going very fast with automatic cars, the vast majority are still AWD. There are a few very fast FWD-Auto racers, but they are few and far between. And frankly, the successful ones are in the top of class when it comes to racing experience, engineering, and overall smarts.

In example, I think Kiggly would be going 8's regardless of what he was running: AWD/FWD or Stick/Auto. Don't take it that because his car is stupid fast; = the fwd-auto platform is the best for everyone to drag race. He is just "that much better" than 99.95% of DSMers at this game regardless of his starting platform.

For the everyday normal guy: AWD traction will always win out and Manual trans is far more adjustable & forgiving of setup. Those whole thing is more versatile as Phil said.

• FWD-Auto might only be 100lb less than an AWD manual trans. Auto's are very heavy! This should be about the last thing on your list to worry about.
• The FWD is going to require slicks, careful suspension setup, engine control, and driving to work well at the drag strip. And even then, you're barely equal to what every normal AWD/5sp DSM does on street tires with no effort.
• The Auto requires a very specific thought process in modifications that take into account converter size, engine power, and spoolup. Slapping parts together with an auto is disaster and it will never launch right. VERY few automatic guys ever get the car to leave well because the torque converter, tire diameter & traction, engine power, and turbo size aren't perfectly matched up.
• If your worried about missing gears...then you just need either more practice or a rebuild on the trans. nothing big. no advantage to auto. a correctly working 5sp driver should never miss gears unless something is broke.

Go read up on Lucal English's amazing AWD-Auto "16g" car. While it is certainly an awesome accomplishment, some of the things he has to deal with are good examples of how the grass isn't always greener on the Automatic trans side:

He is at somewhat of an impasse with power production. His torque converter is stock and tight. Thus he has to think hard about being able to launch the car on full power. He's build a stroker motor to help torque in the range of the converter. He can't go any larger than a 16g frame turbo without messing up the combo. Can't go to a sheetmetal intake manifold without losing bottom end. The cam choice is yet again tied to keeping the combo just right. If it was a 5speed car....these choices aren't "make or break" because of the control you have over launch rpm and power application. If Lucas bolted on a FPgreen with no other changes, the car would likely get slower and fail to launch where if it was a stick trans...it would be significantly faster.

He has got the combo perfected to where it consistently runs low 1.5 second 60's times. incredible on the stock converter. But now he is up against a wall in that to run consistent 1.4's (which the combo has the traction and power to do with ease), he is breaking Xcases. And guess what: there are no upgrades for automatic xcases yet. If the car was stick: call up DSS or Shep and shell out the money for the upgraded Xcase that won't break. Auto cars have less or no options when it comes to aftermarket support.

The same thing with torque converters. From what I have researched, it's very hard to get a correct 1G converter made to the exact stall speed you need for your combination. (trial and error to know what you need as well).

 

[Phil1320]

Good points Nate. Especially pointing out the English car and the transfer case issues with the A/T.

True about Kiggly too....but that was also once his street car if I'm not mistaken, and like me, it eventually transformed into race only and that was the car he had, so why not, I'm fairly certain that his car began life as a 5 speed.

I would only ever consider a 5 speed, wether FWD or AWD, that's me!

But, if he was leaning on the FWD A/T, I would say it's only good for a straightline race application.

For everything else, daily, daily/drag, daily/roadcourse, roadcourse, etc. the 5 speed cars are the way to go....ok, maybe not for sitting in traffic, but that's it.

 

[forcefed86]

I went the manual route myself just for a sporty daily driver... And I regret it. The Act 2600 is a bear in traffic and I’m no small guy. I could source out an expensive dual clutch setup with more stock like pressures. But IMO the reason these cars are fun is because they are relatively cheap. Dumping 3500 worth of trans parts in my 2800 dollar car just sounds crazy.

Dollar for dollar you really can’t beat and auto turbo car at the strip. If your into drag racing, the ability to build boost off the line is such a crazy advantage over the manuals. You’d be hard pressed to belt out constant 1.5x’s with an manual. Especially reliably. The initial shock of dumping the clutch is hard on driveline parts, and aftermarket driveline parts cost an arm and a leg.

For the average joe daily driving with an occasional drag strip visit, I’d have to say seek out an AWD auto. Usually you can find these cheaper than the manuals because they are considered less desirable.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Dollar for dollar you really can't beat and auto turbo car at the strip. If your into drag racing, the ability to build boost off the line is such a crazy advantage over the manuals. You'd be hard pressed to belt out constant 1.5x's with an manual. Especially reliably. The initial shock of dumping the clutch is hard on driveline parts, and aftermarket driveline parts cost an arm and a leg.

Who are all these guys running 1.5's in Automatics? I'v seen plenty of automatic awd DSM's in my decade + screwing with these cars and I'v yet, save Lucas English's car, mildly modified and producing insane launches.

BTW: I'v seen the high 1.4's in my GVR4 with the cheapest of cheap ACT2600 clutch and a completely stock driveline. Go see how much a good converter for an auto 1g is and you'll find it's about the same as a twin disk clutch.

Every automatic DSM I'v seen at the dragstrip that was someone's normal streetcar ran 2.2's to 1.8's. I had a relatively basic modified 14b AWD Auto eclipse...while it did launch at about 17psi of boost...it still barely ran 1.9's.

It's not at all as simple as "it builds boost on the line...that makes it launch". couldn't be farther from the truth. don't make this out like Automatic AWD cars are simple to get to launch. That was the whole point of my post above in that it's actually quite hard to get an automatic AWD DSM to leave hard and run as fast as a manual trans car will. If the combination of parts/tune/setup isn't EXACTLY right...the car doesn't launch hard and runs WAY slower than an equvelent modded AWD 5sp.

Besides...the OP was asking about AWD 5sp vs FWD auto. Getting a FWD car to launch hard is an even bigger challenge on top of dealing with the lack of adjustment an automatic affords.

 

[forcefed86]

Who are all these guys running 1.5's in Automatics? I'v seen plenty of automatic awd DSM's in my decade + screwing with these cars and I'v yet, save Lucas English's car, mildly modified and producing insane launches.

BTW: I'v seen the high 1.4's in my GVR4 with the cheapest of cheap ACT2600 clutch and a completely stock driveline. Go see how much a good converter for an auto 1g is and you'll find it's about the same as a twin disk clutch.

Every automatic DSM I'v seen at the dragstrip that was someone's normal streetcar ran 2.2's to 1.8's. I had a relatively basic modified 14b AWD Auto eclipse...while it did launch at about 17psi of boost...it still barely ran 1.9's.

It's not at all as simple as "it builds boost on the line...that makes it launch". couldn't be farther from the truth. don't make this out like Automatic AWD cars are simple to get to launch. That was the whole point of my post above in that it's actually quite hard to get an automatic AWD DSM to leave hard and run as fast as a manual trans car will. If the combination of parts/tune/setup isn't EXACTLY right...the car doesn't launch hard and runs WAY slower than an equvelent modded AWD 5sp.

Besides...the OP was asking about AWD 5sp vs FWD auto. Getting a FWD car to launch hard is an even bigger challenge on top of dealing with the lack of adjustment an automatic affords.

I'll admit I was generalizing auto vs manual setups. Have you owned an auto DSM? It sounds like you speak from experience. I however am not, having never owned a DSM auto. I was basing my information off Lucas's setup. .

But to my defense, there is a reason most big power drag cars are automatics. I've had both and for longevity and reliability foot brake boost launch will get more torque to the ground with less drive train shock and more consistancy every time!

How long do you think your galant driveline will last pulling 1.4x's on factory equipment? And how often did you do it? My auto turbo cars consistantly run within a few hundreths 60'. I can never seem to get the same launch twice with my manual.

That is why I suggested the OP wait it out and find a good auto AWD setup.

 

[1995gsxawd]

I personally like the feel of a manual transmission way more than an automatic. Automatics feel like its always slipping and such and i dont like that feeling. Manuals stick and have no lag when u want to floor it. U just go. AWD is just awesome. But if your not planning on going high horsepower FWD is just fine.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I’ll admit I was generalizing auto vs manual setups. Have you owned an auto DSM? It sounds like you speak from experience. I however am not, having never owned a DSM auto. I was basing my information off Lucas’s setup. .

But to my defense, there is a reason most big power drag cars are automatics. I’ve had both and for longevity and reliability foot brake boost launch will get more torque to the ground with less drive train shock and more consistancy every time!

How long do you think your galant driveline will last pulling 1.4x's on factory equipment? And how often did you do it? My auto turbo cars consistantly run within a few hundreths 60'. I can never seem to get the same launch twice with my manual.

That is why I suggested the OP wait it out and find a good auto AWD setup.

Iv owned and raced both. The AWD Auto that I had was slow off the line (actually it was slow everywhere...only went high 13's. But if it was a stick car, I was confident it would have gone high 12's with the same basic mods)

Lucas's car is something of a freak IMHO, and not in a bad way. He has got that automatic setup just dialed in to perfection, and as you said in his thread, it seems to be perfectly maxed out. His consistent 1.5's is the blarring exception to the rule. If anything, stock converter AWD Auto's are good for consistent 1.9's or slower. At least that's my personal experience. Building 17-18psi on the line, but only leaving at 2500rpm is still slow. you need to be pushing ALOT of power into an auto to make it leave hard. Look at Lucas's setup...that car is AMAZING be it stick or auto to be making that power/mph from a little turbo.

I will completely agree with you on "big power" dedicated drag cars, that an auto is the way to go. I have a feeling the OP is asking mroe for streetcar & mild mods....say a 12 second car. At that power level, the manual trans parts rarely break. If he was asking what was better to run low 10's in, yeah starting Auto would be smart. Then again, if he was asking about building a low 10 second car, the cost of a twin disk clutch or a custom converter is "drop in the bucket" in overall cost.

to sum up....I think 13-12-mid 11 second cars are better of AWD 5speed. They are simple, easy to setup, not combo specific, and are good learning tools. Basic clutch and 4bolt rear and welded center diff are pretty cheap too. I think at this power level and turbo size...the power lost to an automatic/converter isn't offset by shifting speed and the manual trans car's power efficiency is the advantage.

low 11 -10-9 second cars and faster are better off Automatic. At this level you should already know how to setup the car, tune, match components to your gearing and power-band. No one slaps together a 9 second car with $3000 and a prayer, so the cost on a converter vs twin disk...as well as drivetrain upgrades isn't so much a factor. I think in the 10's and 9's...and automatic car is better for shifting speed and applied power as well seeing the size turbo most people run in this ET range....no lifting, always spooled up, no problems with gear changes.


My GVR4 ran a few 1.5's and 2 1.4's this season, I only got to race it 5 times at the track (car wasn't built till end of august either). I broke one 4bolt rear axle being dumb and trying to just drop the clutch at 6800 with slicks and hit it too hard. I think it would have broken it's fair share of parts...but it was just an example of the cheapest parts you can find running just as fast or faster launches than an auto awd. An automatic going 1.500 to 1.480 will be breaking the Xcase constantly as well, so it's kinda moot point IMHO.

 

[Bender]

You must have had some serious trans issues, or stock converter and a stock shift map. Autos almost always trap lower in the 1/4 than 5 speeds on similar setups, although a 5 speed will dyno higher numbers.

Also, Kevin cuts 1.2 60' times on his fwd auto. You got to love 100% drivetrain preload, something that can't be done on 5 spd cars.

To the OP, auto all the way.

 

[Nate Crisman]

You must have had some serious trans issues, or stock converter and a stock shift map. Autos almost always trap lower in the 1/4 than 5 speeds on similar setups, although a 5 speed will dyno higher numbers.

Also, Kevin cuts 1.2 60' times on his fwd auto. You got to love 100% drivetrain preload, something that can't be done on 5 spd cars.

To the OP, auto all the way.

Shep's car goes 1.2's as well and it's stick and AWD. What does it prove? nothing..same as kiggy's car has to do with the average joe building a streetcar FWD-auto.

What works on full bore high budget drag strip only cars does not necessarily apply to everyday streetcars on street tires with low power output in the hands over everyday guys who lack the experience.

I still challenge you to find all these 13-12-11 automatic cars that are so much faster than the 5speed car with equivalent modifications. In my experience they are always slower in ET and much slower in MPH on the same turbo/engine/power level.

If the automatic cars were just "better by default", the DSM community would have been running them in a dominant form since back in 1995 when the whole AWD 4G63 drag racing movement started.

I stand by my theory that mod for mod the stick car is going to be faster in ET and MPH up until the high 10 second range. At that point the spool loss and shifting time of an automatic trans starts to be more of an advantage than the loss of power efficiency.

Prove me wrong.

 

[caseymac]

deff go awd 5 speed. youll have so much more fun with it man i just got a 97 tsi and i love the car it handles so nice and with the mods and whatnot i have on car it runs

 

[gingerbredman00]

I personally like the feel of a manual transmission way more than an automatic. Automatics feel like its always slipping and such and i dont like that feeling. Manuals stick and have no lag when u want to floor it. U just go. AWD is just awesome. But if your not planning on going high horsepower FWD is just fine.

barely over stock and you'll have traction issues unless you spend alot on good tires.
Why do you think everybody says "just sell yours and get an AWD turbo".

 

[forcefed86]

Iv owned and raced both. The AWD Auto that I had was slow off the line (actually it was slow everywhere...only went high 13's. But if it was a stick car, I was confident it would have gone high 12's with the same basic mods)

Lucas's car is something of a freak IMHO, and not in a bad way. He has got that automatic setup just dialed in to perfection, and as you said in his thread, it seems to be perfectly maxed out. His consistent 1.5's is the blarring exception to the rule. If anything, stock converter AWD Auto's are good for consistent 1.9's or slower. At least that's my personal experience. Building 17-18psi on the line, but only leaving at 2500rpm is still slow. you need to be pushing ALOT of power into an auto to make it leave hard. Look at Lucas's setup...that car is AMAZING be it stick or auto to be making that power/mph from a little turbo.

I will completely agree with you on "big power" dedicated drag cars, that an auto is the way to go. I have a feeling the OP is asking mroe for streetcar & mild mods....say a 12 second car. At that power level, the manual trans parts rarely break. If he was asking what was better to run low 10's in, yeah starting Auto would be smart. Then again, if he was asking about building a low 10 second car, the cost of a twin disk clutch or a custom converter is "drop in the bucket" in overall cost.

to sum up....I think 13-12-mid 11 second cars are better of AWD 5speed. They are simple, easy to setup, not combo specific, and are good learning tools. Basic clutch and 4bolt rear and welded center diff are pretty cheap too. I think at this power level and turbo size...the power lost to an automatic/converter isn't offset by shifting speed and the manual trans car's power efficiency is the advantage.

low 11 -10-9 second cars and faster are better off Automatic. At this level you should already know how to setup the car, tune, match components to your gearing and power-band. No one slaps together a 9 second car with $3000 and a prayer, so the cost on a converter vs twin disk...as well as drivetrain upgrades isn't so much a factor. I think in the 10's and 9's...and automatic car is better for shifting speed and applied power as well seeing the size turbo most people run in this ET range....no lifting, always spooled up, no problems with gear changes.


My GVR4 ran a few 1.5's and 2 1.4's this season, I only got to race it 5 times at the track (car wasn't built till end of august either). I broke one 4bolt rear axle being dumb and trying to just drop the clutch at 6800 with slicks and hit it too hard. I think it would have broken it's fair share of parts...but it was just an example of the cheapest parts you can find running just as fast or faster launches than an auto awd. An automatic going 1.500 to 1.480 will be breaking the Xcase constantly as well, so it's kinda moot point IMHO.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think it's more of a personal preference. If you do alot of stop and go driving the ACT2600 pedal pressure gets tiresome.(hell OEM clutches in stop and go traffic are a pain IMO) Maybe I'm just lazy...

I think ol' Lucas has proved that dollar for dollar an auto can perform similar 1/4 mile results as a manual. Esp his previous 2.0 16g setup running 10.6-10.7's

I don't believe DSM "racers" really knew how to make an auto hold up to decent power until the last few years. This is why we don't see many quick auto's.

Personally I can't believe what a little line pressure does for these auto's. It's insane 136k auto is running 10.3x quarter miles with nothing more than a line pressure switch and a shift kit...

No matter how you look at it, auto's are starting to make a name for themselves. I predict we will see alot more of those 11-12sec daily driver autos emerging on the DSM scene in the next few years.

 

[Bender]

I did not say manuals couldn't get 60' times that low. I just said that because you said to find an auto that cuts 1.5's.

About the automatics getting a better ET, take a look at all the drag times. The automatics trap at lower speeds for the same ET's. My car for example, did 12.5 on a stock motor/cams/ etc on an old B16g with a maf translator at 20psi on 93 octane.

Now lets look at some random manual trans cars I just pulled from the dsmtuners 1/4 mile times list. They are all running the same turbo, only as a 5 speed. Low and behold, they had to trap at HIGHER MPH to run a SLOWER ET. Since mph is related to horsepower and weight, it is safe to say these cars were making more power than my car. My car was ran at full weight, so it wasn't a weight advantage. In fact, my car is 150 lbs heavier than theirs since it is an automatic.

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Dare we bring reliability into this thread? How often do people send their manual transmissions out to get rebuilt. Or order new clutches and resurface their flywheels? With just a few minor tweaks, the stock W4A33 and F4A32 transmissions take gobs of power.

The autos can launch at 4500 rpm's, and can shift how ever high you like. They preload the drivetrain so there is less breakage at launch, and they have shorter gearing so they can accelerate more quickly. Most importantly, once the turbo spools, it is spooled. There is no boost drop off between shifts, and transient lag is 0. Also, I dare you to find someone who shifts faster than an automatic. So there is no loss of power between shifts, and the shifts happen instantly

And what do you mean "better by default?" A few years ago, everyone was swapping to 1g cylinder heads too. Just recently they have been proven to be inferior to the 2g cylinder heads. The dsm community is evolving to the better technology, which is why you see such an influx of 2g head and auto swaps.

Shep's car goes 1.2's as well and it's stick and AWD. What does it prove? nothing..same as kiggy's car has to do with the average joe building a streetcar FWD-auto.

What works on full bore high budget drag strip only cars does not necessarily apply to everyday streetcars on street tires with low power output in the hands over everyday guys who lack the experience.

I still challenge you to find all these 13-12-11 automatic cars that are so much faster than the 5speed car with equivalent modifications. In my experience they are always slower in ET and much slower in MPH on the same turbo/engine/power level.

If the automatic cars were just "better by default", the DSM community would have been running them in a dominant form since back in 1995 when the whole AWD 4G63 drag racing movement started.

I stand by my theory that mod for mod the stick car is going to be faster in ET and MPH up until the high 10 second range. At that point the spool loss and shifting time of an automatic trans starts to be more of an advantage than the loss of power efficiency.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I never said anyone could shift a manual trans as fast as an automatic shifts.
I never said that zero lag on shifts or launch wasn't an advantage to the auto.
What I did say is that I feel that the power absorbed by the converter and auto trans hurts MORE than the faster shifting and zero lag helps UNTIL about low 11's-high 10's. There really isn't any strong evidence to know exactly, but that's my opinion from experience.

My opinion is that for 14b/16g/20g size turbochargers typical of 13-12-mid 11 second cars, the lag isn't an issue because they recover so fast from gear changes on a manual trans. On a typical low 11-10 or 9 second car, the turbocharger is MUCH MUCH bigger which gives the zero lag of an automatic more and more of an advantage.

the same goes for the launch...the faster the car, the more advantage I give to the auto trans assuming it is setup perfectly with matching converter/tune/setup. But frankly, 16g to 20g type power levels are CAKE to launch with a stick trans. I see no giant advantage to an automatic at that power and complexity level.

An example I'll give: Which is faster? completely stock 5sp AWD or completely stock auto AWD? If I remember correctly, a dead stock 1g awd manual should do low 14's @ 95mph where the auto was more like mid 15's @ 90. When you only have 200hp to work with, losing an extra 15 to 20hp at the wheels throught the automatic is a huge price to pay. In a theoretical 800hp monster DSM, the power loss might be negligable compared to the efficient USE of power since driving a manual trans car with that amount of power is extremely hard to do well.

For your example of a typical 16G with bolt-ons on a stock engine at 20psi on pumpgas, I would say a very good running stick car would be in the 12.1 @ 113 range with a 1.65 short time. I ran a bunch of bottom 12's @ 113 on a bpu evo8, and "back in the day" ran best of 12.0 @ 112 in a 1g with a small 16/vpc/550's combo (talking like 1999 era here). 12.5 @ 106, while faster than I would guess for an automatic, is about on par with an average stick car. At least what I would call average. Im sure you can hunt through the times list here and pick a whole stack of slower cars, just like I could go through DSMtimes and cherry pick excellent drivers and get a bunch of 11's 16G cars. Either way, there is too much variety to say for sure.

What I don't see are automatic cars getting ET's that are any better than what a good driver can accomplish with a stick trans in the range that I feel the stick car has the advantage: "slow" cars up to about mid 11's that are easy to drive well.

Crazy comparason. Lucas' AWD Auto 16G car vs Curt Brown's 5sp 16G car: Curt damn near went 9's on what (debatable) is a comparable power level in a stick car. Trying to compare Lucas or Curt to general everyday people who don't own shops and modify cars for a living isn't fair, but we can somewhat say that they both represent the top of what's possible in a given combo.

This is getting to be a pointless argument, mostly because the original poster hasn't made it clear if he's looking for a 12.8 @ 102 type 14b car or a 9.5 @ 145 drag car or anywhere in between. What I'm trying to make clear is that at some point along the way as we progress to faster and faster cars with more power and modifications the advantage goes from stick to automatic.

Dead stock...the stick is faster
Huge power dragcar: the auto is faster
somewhere in the middle is an equal tipping point. (I feel it's about 11.0 @ 125)

 

[Bender]

I see what you are saying now, I was getting the impression that you thought the 5spd's were better for drag racing, period. I just used the 16g example as my personal experience.

I do agree for a mildly modified street car, a 5 speed is not only more fun, but can net better times with the right driver. The better MPG doesn't hurt either. If the OP is looking for something in the 200-350hp range, then I agree a 5 speed would be better. However, going on the assumption that he is going to be pushing 400+, something that even evo3 16g's are capable of, I think he will run into problems with the 5 speed. Atleast I always did, as a transmission would only last me about a year. I recommended him an auto to save him the hassle of pulling the transmission every winter.

Again, if it was a street only car, it would probably see minimal drivetrain shock, and the stock 5-speed would be sufficient. The only difference we see is the tipping point between autos/manuals. I believe it is closer to 11.50-12.00, but that is just personal opinion.

 

[Phil1320]

Shep's car goes 1.2's as well and it's stick and AWD. What does it prove? nothing..same as kiggy's car has to do with the average joe building a streetcar FWD-auto.

What works on full bore high budget drag strip only cars does not necessarily apply to everyday streetcars on street tires with low power output in the hands over everyday guys who lack the experience.

I still challenge you to find all these 13-12-11 automatic cars that are so much faster than the 5speed car with equivalent modifications. In my experience they are always slower in ET and much slower in MPH on the same turbo/engine/power level.

If the automatic cars were just "better by default", the DSM community would have been running them in a dominant form since back in 1995 when the whole AWD 4G63 drag racing movement started.

I stand by my theory that mod for mod the stick car is going to be faster in ET and MPH up until the high 10 second range. At that point the spool loss and shifting time of an automatic trans starts to be more of an advantage than the loss of power efficiency.

Prove me wrong.

I was going to bring up Shep's car actually. You definitely have it all out in the open here and I definitely couldn't have said it better. I'm in agreement 100%.

A friend of mine has a GSX A/T with a Level 10 Modded trans with a 20G turbo and runs 12.3. A 5 speed with the same mods would easily hit 11's.

Kiggly's car is in an arena that most people woudn't venture into. I don't think it's a valid comparison in this thread.

 

[forcefed86]

I was going to bring up Shep's car actually. You definitely have it all out in the open here and I definitely couldn't have said it better. I'm in agreement 100%.

A friend of mine has a GSX A/T with a Level 10 Modded trans with a 20G turbo and runs 12.3. A 5 speed with the same mods would easily hit 11's.

Kiggly's car is in an arena that most people woudn't venture into. I don't think it's a valid comparison in this thread.

Bringing up shep is as much of a waste as bringing up kiggly. Big names aside… That friend of yours needs to get his tune straight. If you can manage a 1.5x 60’ there is no reason that car shouldn’t be mid11’s assuming the combo isn’t crazy mismatched and everything was done correctly.

I still personally think I could make an auto reliably almost or just as fast as a manual. Given similar shoestring budget and mods. That’s common bolt ons. Stock frame turbo/fuel/exh/int etc. Not saying it’s any better. I’d be willing to give up a few 10ths and MPH for the ease and drivability. Again, just comes down to personal choice. I’m an old man now… that fancy shift’n is for the whipper-snappers!

 

[Bender]

Agreed. It only costs $500 (plus $500 for a torque converter) to build an auto for 9 second passes.

You will spend over $1k just for a clutch to handle that power in a 5 speed.

Also, that 20g auto needs to be tuned.