Dry sump oiling system

[GTM]

Was wondering if anyone is using or recently installed a dry sump oil system?

How many pumps involved and type used, delivery gph @ x psi, drive mechanism, check valves, pop-off valves etc.? Surge tank, anti-cavitation, baffels, anti syphon valves etc.

I have something in mind that may make it more practical and affordable than most realize if we can get some interest here to kick it around.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Defiant]

But to what benefit? I mean, it's a slick idea, and apparently Porsche thinks they "need" it, but is there any payoff in a DSM?

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Defiant
But to what benefit? I mean, it's a slick idea, and apparently Porsche thinks they "need" it, but is there any payoff in a DSM?

The big HP increase!! cooler oil temps, cooler engine temps.

As much as 20% of engine hp is lost to windage in the crankcase. The crank is slinging oil _everwhere_ and I mean everywhere, it's bouncing off the block, rods, pistons, crankshaft, and it's self in the pan.

I've seen this described as oil mist, "ain't" no such thing, it's total chaos with oil slung everywhere. If you have a oil dipstick tube that is below the normal oil level and with the engine running you check the level you will find it shows 1-2 qt low because some is in drain back passages and the rest is in motion bouncing off all the moving parts. Thus if you scavange the oil from the pan you don't have the oil being whipped around. Combined with baffels / windage trays you have the max removal of all the oil.

Sucking it out of the engine removes the latent heat. Hoses, pipes, and resevoir are all heat radiating surfaces, from there it goes to the pressure pump, through the filter and cooler into the engine. You don't want to make it too cool for the viscosity will increase and add drag. All of this takes some of the load off the radiator thus a cooler engine. Depending on... probably better oil filtration and particulate matter can settle out rather than the chaos in the crancase.

So it's the same payoff for Porsche as any other engine, get the hot oil out, reduce that in suspension and clinging to surfaces.

Most formula cars, prototype racers, and where permitted by sanctioning bodies with lots of sponsors you will find dry sump systems.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RuBiCaNT5X]

I don't know if this is the same thing you are talking about, but the SRT-4 and probably others have a deck/shelf between the bottom end of the engine block and the oil pan which catches the oil off the crank and prevents it from being slung all over the place. It wouldn't really be hard to make, as long as your clearnace was good as far as the crankshaft is concerned. A couple Issues ago in SCC they did a write up on the 2.4L SRT-4/PT-Cruiser Turbo motor with such technology in nice color pictures..

 

[boostedinaz]

I understand how it works and the benefits, but the complexity and cost of all the items wouldn't really be worth it. Not only that but you have to take into account all the custom work and parts. You will also lose some power trying to drive the pump. The reason that only race or supercars have this sytem is becaue of price and complexity. If you car is a RACE car not a street/strip or street car, then I would say go for it. Other than that it may nto be worht it but give it a shot and see what happens, but dont expect it to go smooth at all. If it doesnt work you can wipe out all the bearings so be careful.

Michael

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by boostedinaz
I understand how it works and the benefits, but the complexity and cost of all the items wouldn't really be worth it.
...
The reason that only race or supercars have this sytem is becaue of price and complexity. If you car is a RACE car not a street/strip or street car, then I would say go for it.
...

I omitted some of the reply to concentrate on a couple of points without bouncing all over. First, many of us are interested in DIY either from necessity or experimentation. If you are one of these people who pays others to do your work then it's not the discssion for you. That's not meant to be flip or insulting but what you have offered does not advance the goal. You have offered that it's too costly, impractical or no hp gain. That is pure subjective analysis and does not reflect what I wish to explore in the discussion and implimentation. Again, not intended as an attack, it's just counter productive.

If the data I've read is correct and 20% hp loss is accurate, then where can you get 40 more hp without overloading the motive parts to their breaking point. These are frictional hp robbing conditions that can be reduced... maybe by 20 or more hp, still worthy of consideration when it relieves stress rather than adding it.

All these things: get more air, get more fuel, raise the compression, change the cams, etc. are adding stress and making it less reliable. Please kick in any info that can be helpful or if some expressed idea is based on some fallacy or overlooked problem. Jokingly... don't rain on my parade.

For this thread to fly we need more professional input with well rounded info and skills. I won't bore you with my credentials, there is little I don't understand or can't grasp given the proper info.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RuBiCaNT5X
I don't know if this is the same thing you are talking about,
...
It wouldn't really be hard to make, as long as your clearnace was good as far as the crankshaft is concerned. A couple Issues ago in SCC they did a write up on the 2.4L SRT-4/PT-Cruiser Turbo motor with such technology in nice color pictures..

It sounds like it's in part where we need to go.
What did you learn from the article??

Having a used spare oil pan would not be a bad thing to experiment with. We are talking about scrap sheet metal that can be bent or shaped with common tools and brazed, welded, or riveted in place. Vibration will be a concern when making anything that goes in there. The idea is to figure out what angles will be most effective in catching the oil so it doesn't splash back into suspension. Wire mesh of a designated size which will reduce the droplets can be brazed over parts of the baffels mainly in the paths of rod journals and counterweights. You don't want it so fine that it trapps sludge and dust, that's the filter's job.

One shape I've thought to be good would look like the spikes on parking lots positioned where they can't foul the crank. Shaped like this "^"^"^"^" the length of the pan. Where they taper to the base 1/2" drain holes for the captured oil falls below.

Part of the idea is to stop the wind generated by the rotating crank. Place your hand over the suction side of a vacuum cleaner and the motor spins up faster because it's not dragging the air through the vanes, do the same to the exhaust, again the motor speeds up. But it's not just air in circulation for there is the oil that has done it's job of lubing parts that you are also trying to trap before it's bouncing all over the place. In the vacuum cleaner you want only the air, in the engine you want that power transmitted through the crank. This is part of the business at hand and could end when this is achieved.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Enigma_Man]

Well, you're all talking about two different things here.

A dry sump system is a big change from what DSMs have. It's not just a sectioned-off oil pan, or a crank scraper (which both are used to help reduce windage, the oil thrown around inside the engine).

Crank scrapers, which are basically metal sheets that go between the oil pan and block, have a cutout shape that allows the crank to just barely clear it when rotating down through it. These are sold by a couple of different manufacturers already, and can be found by searching around.

Different oil pans with baffels, and reservoirs are also available, which try to keep the oil where it belongs, instead of splashing all around.

There is one company that is supposedly developing an actual dry-sump setup on a DSM, I'm at work, and don't have the link, or the time to search for it, but it can be found.

It involves these changes to the car: Instead of an oil pan, there is a shallow oil tray, with a pickup at the bottom of it. This pickup goes to a pump, which pumps the oil into a reservoir and/or oil cooler. This oil is then pumped out, and back into the engine. It replaces the mechanical oil pump and pickup in the engine. It can be driven mechanically or electrically.

The benefits to doing this are: You don't have your oil in a pan, it's not sloshing around and causing drag on things. It is also always available, no matter how hard you are cornering/accel/decelerating. You can have a large reservoir with a large amount of oil in it, which will stay cooler, and last longer. You can mount the reservoir where you like, to alter the CG of the car. You have better control over the oil pressure in the engine. In some cases, you can mount the engine lower in the chassis without the oil pan, but I don't think that applies in our situation, we'd just drag the tranny or t-case if it were any lower.

Downsides: Cost, you need an oil tray, pump, reservoir, tubing, more oil, etc etc. You're not adding any complexity or possibility of breaking to the situation, because while you're adding a pump and oil lines that can break and such, you're also removing the stock pump and all of the associated parts that can also break.

-Jesse

 

[Tevenor]

All 2G's came with Windage/baffle Trays.

MD308250
MD324052

 

[boostedinaz]

Originally posted by GTM
I omitted some of the reply to concentrate on a couple of points without bouncing all over. First, many of us are interested in DIY either from necessity or experimentation. If you are one of these people who pays others to do your work then it's not the discssion for you. That's not meant to be flip or insulting but what you have offered does not advance the goal. You have offered that it's too costly, impractical or no hp gain. That is pure subjective analysis and does not reflect what I wish to explore in the discussion and implimentation. Again, not intended as an attack, it's just counter productive.

If the data I've read is correct and 20% hp loss is accurate, then where can you get 40 more hp without overloading the motive parts to their breaking point. These are frictional hp robbing conditions that can be reduced... maybe by 20 or more hp, still worthy of consideration when it relieves stress rather than adding it.

All these things: get more air, get more fuel, raise the compression, change the cams, etc. are adding stress and making it less reliable. Please kick in any info that can be helpful or if some expressed idea is based on some fallacy or overlooked problem. Jokingly... don't rain on my parade.

For this thread to fly we need more professional input with well rounded info and skills. I won't bore you with my credentials, there is little I don't understand or can't grasp given the proper info.

Cheers,
GTM

At first I was just going to leave this post alone after this statement, but what I thought was correct. What you are trying to do and what a dry sump actually is are totally different. You are making a mean ass windage tray and not a drysump. As I stated in my first post I know what are how a drysump works, and you do not. If you do the research you will see why this really isnt a weekend warrior kind of project. I am not saying that it can't be done that way but it just deosnt make any sense. I do alot of the work on my own car and for you to assume is ignorant. My title on this board may still say new but that has to do with post counts not actual knowledge. Good luck on you project I wish you the best of luck.

Michael

P.S. There was a thread that had to do with this on here or tuners a little back. A guy bought a true drysump oilpan and wanted to try and use it. That may have some info that you need.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by boostedinaz
At first I was just going to leave this post alone after this statement, but what I thought was correct.
...
My title on this board may still say new but that has to do with post counts not actual knowledge. Good luck on you project I wish you the best of luck.
...
P.S. There was a thread that had to do with this on here or tuners a little back.

Michael, I wasn't trying to insult you, I indicated that at two places in the previous reply. That sort of thing get no place and only ticks people off. I don't know you and you don't know me, your experiences may be just what we need so let's not spin our wheels and go no place.

I have searched for dry sump as key words on this site and only 1 hit was found.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[boostedinaz]

Agreed. I would try talk and see what might show up there. A true drysump doesn thave ANY oil in the pan. Infact there really is no oil pan as we think of it. The pan on DS (drysump) is just there to cover the bottom of the motor and make it seal. The oil that does get dropped in the pan it sucked out as soon as it hits the bottom, hence the name of the system. Its is then shot to a tank that is in reallity the holding place for oil. This is where all the plumbing comein to play, because you can mount it whereever you want if you can plump it. The oil is pressurized through the motor, similar to the tradition pump, so that is can rotate freely. As it is shot from the bearing to the pan it gets sucked up again and starts over. That is the basic idea. These systems carry alot more oil than a traditional system, about twice as much, and its all caried in the resivoir. Since there is more oil and the resivior can be mounted anywhere, say in the car, it doesnt have to combat the temps from under the hood. The won i helped on all I really did was make the lines and check for leaks. This is because if you plumb then backwards you fill the pan and dont lubricate the motor. The motor dies and you are SOL. The motor it was in a ProMod car and I was not about to F that up. The guy that I was helping explain how the whole system worked and the benefits (they are posted other places in this thread as well) so it all made sense because I could actually see it. The system needs alot of parts, plumbing, and space to work right and for the most part is just not feasible on anything but a racecar. Shep doesn't use it and I am not sure about Buscher but he might. I am in no way saying not to try but i will be a ton of work and some of the parts will be vary hard to come by. Namely the special pan and brackets for the pumps. Again I wish you the best of luck and hope this info helps. Sorry for getting pissy.

Michael

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Enigma_Man
Well, you're all talking about two different things here.
...
Downsides: Cost, you need an oil tray, pump, reservoir, tubing, more oil, etc etc. You're not adding any complexity or possibility of breaking to the situation, because while you're adding a pump and oil lines that can break and such, you're also removing the stock pump and all of the associated parts that can also break.

Hi Jessie:

Understood that it's 2 different animals. You mention cost and most certainly the commercially available units are enough to drain the blood from your face when writing _that_ check.

However, what I am proposing as a DIY project could be in the $100-$300 range. Does that get your attention??

I've thought about this for decades so I'm not coming from nowhere land and I don't smoke funny cigarettes.

Let's side step the oil pan for the moment as part of the discussion.

What I am thinking in it's simplest form consists of the oil filter adapter, using the existing oil pump as the scavanger which because there is no load if free to remove all the oil from the engine. It passes out the remote oil filter adapter and into a salvage 2 gallon propane or freon tank. From there a suction line is routed to a second belt driven power steering pump and back to the engine.

Along the way it needs to be filtered, cooled and regulated. The P/S pump is just as reliable if not more so than the engine oil pump. It's capable of pressures in the 1000-2000psi, it should have no problem delevering the volume needed to oil this and any other engine. Compare the input shaft to a conventional engine oil pump to that of a P/S pump and you will see a significant size difference.

My greatest concern(s) is/are switching from P/S fluid to engine oil. Most P/S pump makers that I've encountered indicate that ATF can be substituted for the p/s oil but may chatter more when heavy loads are applied. We are not talking heavy loads for we want a max of 90 psi so we don't blow the babbit right out of the bearings. The other aspect is the actual metalurgy involved so accelerated wear from running engine oil is a concern factor.

The pump itself usually has a built in pop-off valve set to those pressures listed above and just dumps the oil back into the inlet/suction side. I would be nice to change that value to the 90-100 psi range by substituting a weaker spring on the ball pressure relief valve. If that can't be done then another inline regulator / pop-off valve with return line must be added. With the pump used in the power steering application it is constantly circulating the oil to the rack and pinion unit and back to the tank, when a load is placed it diverts this oil to the pistons with the excess still being returned to the tank. There is no magic, just like the excess oil for the engine it's in constant motion either to lube the parts or get dumped into the oil pan.

Now it is possible to have redundancy so the engine oil pump can be redirected to lubing the engine should a belt fail. We know about belt failures from our timing gear design. I mention the pump itself is very robust for I've used them to drive other hydraulic devices including anchor winches on large boats.

Other alternatives for the sump pump can be the neophrene vane type which will usually only output a max of 35psi. Running them beyond those pressures causes the vanes to break and they may have rpm issues which I've not explored.

Cheers,
GTM


So there we have the basics

 

[krustindumm]

Left out the pressure regulator and sensor, everything else should explain it.

 

[Tevenor]

So anyone want to give me the quantitative numbers that a true dry sump system will give over and above a windage tray in our motors? I will settle for a percentage of gain.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Tevenor
So anyone want to give me the quantitative numbers that a true dry sump system will give over and above a windage tray in our motors? I will settle for a percentage of gain.

I don't have them, I thought you did... hehehe

............

krustindumm, thanks for the drawing. Want to draw a redundancy circuit including 12v solonoid valves bypass the p/s pump should their be a failure?? Then getting more sophisticated low oil pressure switch(s) on the engine oil gallery to allow automatic switching.

The problem with dry sump systems is oil drain back which can occur if check valves are not included. This can load the crankcase with the oil and take a min or so to purge the engine meanwhile the p/s pressure pump ain't kicking out anything. The nicest check valves I've seen are used in commercial refrigeration systems. They take less than 1/2 psi to pull them off their seat and will check 1-400 psi without leaking, using a teflon egg shape seal which reduces chatter if that's an issue. They will withstand all the heat loads plus a lot more than we could expect in this application. Probably can't find these used but new they are around $25 in 1/2" size and either flare or solder fittings.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Tevenor]

Originally posted by GTM
I don't have them, I thought you did... hehehe

............

Left them in my other pants.

 

[krustindumm]

krustindumm, thanks for the drawing. Want to draw a redundancy circuit including 12v solonoid valves bypass the p/s pump should their be a failure?? Then getting more sophisticated low oil pressure switch(s) on the engine oil gallery to allow automatic switching.

I will if I have some time, but I would advise against using the PS pump. A electric pump could be mounted below the oil level, so it would not need to be primed, and could be turned on before starting the engine. The best place to mount the resivoir is as low as possable.

The best failsafe device is a high quality pump, and keeping an eye on a high quality oil pressure gauge.

 

[GTM]

In krustindumm's drawing
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=740711
he shows a thermostat, this is not the same as normally found at the top of an engine for it has a bypass shunt that supplies pressure oil to the system and when the temp approaches the set point will mix the oil cooler oil through the system. Depending on requirements and location a radiator fan shitch could could substitute for the t'stat.
........................

Back to the oil pan and windage tray(s).

If someone is really serious about gathering as much oil and rotating air from the crancase it will require a bit of fiddling. It requires access to a short block for you are going to make a mold from common materials. With the block inverted you will cover the crank and all the associated parts with painter's plastic drop cloths, you cover the block sides and pistons/cylrs. You may have to cut and duct tape pieces together but you want it to be a sealed unit.

Now comes the hard part (joke) all those styrofoam peanuts / packing materials that are such a nusance you get to reuse. Get a trigger type spray bottle and a bottle of water mix white glue, dilute this about 50/50 with water. Spray the liner, add peanuts and spray each layer so you will have a reasonable assurance most surfaces have some glue coating, press them in place use plastic gloves if you don't like sticky fingers fill in excess of pan gasket. Don't press too hard for it will distort the liner and the model won't draw well once everything has dried. You can help it along with a hair dryer and/ or heat lamps but it will take overnight for things to set. If you can heat the block with the lamps so much the better.

Once set and removed (if it breaks you will have to spritz with your glue mix and shove it back in to give it more drying time) you will then use an electric kitchen carving knife or Dremel tool to adjust the mold for the crank sweep. I've used engine oil when possible to leave a trace on the foam so I can see where to carve it away. Of course you have to rotate the crank so it's not going to foul but you now have a model of the cavity and can then build/fabricate to those demensions. If you are going to use the existing oil pan repeat the same process for the crankcase. The pan gasket level can be trimmed with a hand saw.

You can do a mock up in ABS plastic that you stole from you kid brother's hot wheels. It sets quickly with most plumbing or Krazy glue, with a heat gun you can bend it around mandrils (3/8" drive extensions) to get any convoluted shapes you want. The shape that appeals to me as being effective would look like a falcon's beak with a wire mesh covering that is silver soldered in place. Behind those additional traps like rain gutters soldered or brazed to the back side of the beak shape, drilled to allow the oil to run down the outside of the beak where it's not going to see the air wash.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by krustindumm

...
I would advise against using the PS pump. A electric pump could be mounted below the oil level, so it would not need to be primed, and could be turned on before starting the engine. The best place to mount the resivoir is as low as possable.

The best failsafe device is a high quality pump, and keeping an eye on a high quality oil pressure gauge.

Respectfully I totaly disagree for many reasons. I anticipated this would draw some flack but I'd like to think I have a pretty good understanding of hydraulic pumps plus the issues and that involves cost and the DIY concept. I'm going to voice an opinion which of course is subject to argument. (math and legal context please)

An electric motor needed to achieve these working pressures does not come without a price plus energy losses. I'll toss out 50 amps draw which has to come from someplace, so that means an alternator running all the time at that value. You can't depend on a battery for any length of time. To generate that approximate 3/4 hp will steal another 1/4 hp loss minimum. Then you have a fuse? a circuit breaker? direct wired? not got me sold on that program at all. On top of that the cost instantly jumps into the high hundreds upwards to the thousands. Why should this be so... reliability factor for a limited application requiring tougher standards than NASA. They then place it in an pretty red white and blue anodized housing and tell you it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

As stated before, Power Steering pumps are as robust and reliable as they come. Consider that should a failure occur it takes a might strong arm to operate a lot of cars when it fails, consider the number of law suits because some 100 lb woman could not steer her car safely to the side of the road. When was the last time you read of a power steering pump having a catastrophic failure... it DOESN'T happen!! They make noise, they leak oil but major failure no no no! These things will grind up rocks and spit them out. We "ain't" talking some sleezy engine oil pump driven by a 1/4" shaft, 10's of millions have been built, nay, 100's of millions in the last 4 decades so the track record is awfully damned good. They just can't afford failures and I've never seen one that hadn't run out of oil first because of customer neglect. So convince me I'm wrong and got my head someplace other than my shoulders.

The NTSB may have records for which cars had failures but again I'll toss out the 20-30k cars I've worked on in my lifetime not a single failure.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by krustindumm

...
I would advise against using the PS pump. A electric pump could be mounted below the oil level, so it would not need to be primed, and could be turned on before starting the engine. The best place to mount the resivoir is as low as possable.

The best failsafe device is a high quality pump, and keeping an eye on a high quality oil pressure gauge.

Respectfully I totaly disagree for many reasons. I anticipated this would draw some flack but I'd like to think I have a pretty good understanding of hydraulic pumps plus the issues and that involves cost and the DIY concept. I'm going to voice an opinion which of course is subject to argument. (math and legal context please)

An electric motor needed to achieve these working pressures does not come without a price plus energy losses. I'll toss out 50 amps draw which has to come from someplace, so that means an alternator running all the time at that value. You can't depend on a battery for any length of time. To generate that approximate 3/4 hp will steal another 1/4 hp loss minimum. Then you have a fuse? a circuit breaker? direct wired? not got me sold on that program at all. On top of that the cost instantly jumps into the high hundreds upwards to the thousands. Why should this be so... reliability factor for a limited application requiring tougher standards than NASA. They then place it in an pretty red white and blue anodized housing and tell you it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

As stated before, Power Steering pumps are as robust and reliable as they come. Consider that should a failure occur it takes a might strong arm to operate a lot of cars when it fails, consider the number of law suits because some 100 lb woman could not steer her car safely to the side of the road. When was the last time you read of a power steering pump having a catastrophic failure... it DOESN'T happen!! They make noise, they leak oil but major failure no no no! These things will grind up rocks and spit them out. We "ain't" talking some sleezy engine oil pump driven by a 1/4" shaft, 10's of millions have been built, nay, 100's of millions in the last 4 decades so the track record is awfully damned good. They just can't afford failures and I've never seen one that hadn't run out of oil first because of customer neglect. So convince me I'm wrong and got my head someplace other than my shoulders.

The NTSB may have records for which cars had failures but again I'll toss out the 20-30k cars I've worked on in my lifetime not a single failure.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[krustindumm]

Why have a dry sump.

I know the pumps are cheaper, I just can't find them now. I was building a system for a ZX6-R.

 

[dsmturboawd]

Originally posted by Tevenor
All 2G's came with Windage/baffle Trays.

MD308250
MD324052

do 1g's come with em too? if not, im trying to think if a 2g pan would be a consideration or even worth a thought on a 1g.

 

[hostile]

Well a 2g oil pan wont fit on a 6 bolt, maybe the evo III has a better oil pan that could be used on a 6 bolt.

Or you can buy the $$$ aftermarket oil pans.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by hostile
Well a 2g oil pan wont fit on a 6 bolt, maybe the evo III has a better oil pan that could be used on a 6 bolt. ... Or you can buy the $$$ aftermarket oil pans.

What I've noticed about these aftermarket pans is they have just jumped on the bandwagon, where were they, 20, 30 years ago. I've had import cars that were aware of the problem and did something about it more than 40 years ago. My opinion is they leave a lot to be desired for what ever reason and you are paying top dollar because it's the "in" thing today. They may be a good place to start if you don't feel comfortable taking those first steps in going to a wrecking yard and cutting templates from cardboard.

On one of those URLs the author stated baffels don't work and he's been in business since 1998. It's obvious he never took apart an Italian engine so it makes me wonder about his other statements. In an earlier post I'd mentioned this has been a to-do project for a couple of decades. It's not something I want to do on the family van or my wife's car for the rewards can't be justified. They are not driven hard or pushed to the limit where it would make a difference.

You guys have the cars, I'm still looking for mine and my son can't (wont??) have his torn down for a month. But if you are building a spare "motor" would be a shame to go to the expense and at least not make provisions for the dry sump if you only plug off the holes and fittings for later use.

Cheers,
GTM