2G: Fresh rebuild troubleshooting

[dsm-junkie]

Hey guys I got my motor installed last night and now I have a couple things that I cannot get straight! First I started my car and it drives! I do hear a small knock sound around 2000 RPMS. A buddy of mine said it could of been lifters??? I did have fresh new bearings on a stock crank and a fresh honed block with new rings and stock rods and pistons! I am using a 6 bolt shortblock with a 2g head! After driving for a bit in the city my idle will stick around 1400 RPMS then drop sometimes. I have DSMlink V3 and tried to hook it up but my computer cannot connect to the ECU. The light on the usb cable does not light up either. I am in the process of using reinstalling my oil pan because of a small leak! Should I continue with running the car??? Im really confused on where to go from here!

[turboglenn]

Don't worry too much about lifter noise till you've got a half hour or so on it, idle can adjust by cable tension, cruise box adjusting etc.. oron 1g TB's the idle stop//you probably have a vacum leak though, chekc for them, putting one TB gasket on backwards causes a major leak and there's a ton of vac lines on the 2g manifold too that might be one unhooked you didn' catch

as long as it's not a deep knocking but a light clacking it's most likely lifters, but then again i spent 3 k on an engnine that wasn't machined righgt and put a set of main bearings in it every 500 miles for 1500 miles untl i bought a used JDM engien to put in while i pulled thatone out to save to have it fixed


did your machinist have bearings to check the fit or fdid you at least plasti-gauge them before running it both main and rod bearings?? did you check gap on rings and adjust if needed, what was the piston to wall clearance, and if you collapsed the lifters like you should or wait over nightbefore starting the car if you didn't collapse them they will clack if not the 3g revised but should go away with some revs and oil pressure...BTW what's oil pressure reading

first engine builds are usually a lesson in what you didn't do, needed to do and shouldn't have done,m I hate to say it but 75% of the time a first time rebuild by some one who's not done anythig like it before ends up with erros, but you can fix most before its too late

[dsm-junkie]

Originally Posted by turboglenn

Don't worry too much about lifter noise till you've got a half hour or so on it, idle can adjust by cable tension, cruise box adjusting etc.. oron 1g TB's the idle stop//you probably have a vacum leak though, chekc for them, putting one TB gasket on backwards causes a major leak and there's a ton of vac lines on the 2g manifold too that might be one unhooked you didn' catch

as long as it's not a deep knocking but a light clacking it's most likely lifters, but then again i spent 3 k on an engnine that wasn't machined righgt and put a set of main bearings in it every 500 miles for 1500 miles untl i bought a used JDM engien to put in while i pulled thatone out to save to have it fixed


did your machinist have bearings to check the fit or fdid you at least plasti-gauge them before running it both main and rod bearings?? did you check gap on rings and adjust if needed, what was the piston to wall clearance, and if you collapsed the lifters like you should or wait over nightbefore starting the car if you didn't collapse them they will clack if not the 3g revised but should go away with some revs and oil pressure...BTW what's oil pressure reading

first engine builds are usually a lesson in what you didn't do, needed to do and shouldn't have done,m I hate to say it but 75% of the time a first time rebuild by some one who's not done anythig like it before ends up with erros, but you can fix most before its too late

Thanks so much for the help! Well I basically did an oem rebuild for the short block so everything was standard oem size! I did get the rings installed on the pistons by the machine shop that measured with the short block as I got it honed. I did collapse the lifters! The sound is not too bad now! The idle now kind of sticks high after a driving for a bit! I've put about 25-30 miles on the car so far! Everything seems good except for the knocks sound it scares me a bit! I do have an oil leak coming from the pan! So basically in a few minutes I'm gonna take it off and re seal it after I inspect it for chips! I will definitely be back to update this thread!

[turboglenn]

knock is not good, at least a 6bot block has standard sized bearings instead of crossing measurements with charts on each one. but the rings I meant to mneasure the GAP without the piston in there and make sure iut was right, but that's more compression unless you bind one up, abd piston to wall clearance is set by machine shop, but user should checkl it always...

check everything, oil pressure, plastigauge the bearings (too late but you can still re-check them) as long as you havne't spun one you should be able to correct it if the knock isn't lifters at this point

[dsm-junkie]

Just got the pan off and I found some thin aluminum shavings in the oil! I read that it can be normal to see thin shavings after using fresh bearings is this true???? Also Could I take off the rod caps to check the condition of the bearings while everything else is still installed??? The flakes are not chunks at all they are just very thin aluminum flakes. Also could my knock sound be coming from the lifters????









Here is a video of the sound that it is making! You can hear it best between 44 and 58 secs '

What is this sound?? - YouTube

[95'RS-T]

I never heard that there should be little shavings with new bearings. That does not sound good at all. Did you remove the balance shafts?

[dsm-junkie]

Originally Posted by 95'RS-T

I never heard that there should be little shavings with new bearings. That does not sound good at all. Did you remove the balance shafts?

Yes balance shafts were removed! I did swap out lifters today and the sound seemed to go away. Later on after a couple mins of idling and driving it came back! Doesnt this sound like it was gone???

Sound 3 - YouTube

[black_eclipse96]

I just rebuilt my motor and thats the exact same sound im getting. Only mine comes from 2.5k rpm I pulled the oil pan and found very little shavings like your but just a few. Im thinking it might be the stubby shaft backing out. Im gonna verify that in a couple hours

[jrs187]

Did u put the rod bearings in the correct way. If they are backwards u will have knock.

[black_eclipse96]

Just a quick update for mine. Everything checked out okay on the bottom end.

['97boostinGST]

How many times have you changed the oil?
You are supposed to change it within 15-20min of idling to get rid of any machining shavings or any dirt/grime.

[dsm-junkie]

Well im pretty sure I put everything on correctly! I changed the oil after the first 30 miles I even took off the pan since I need to fix an oil leak! Here's a pic of my bottom end!

[dsm-junkie]

Originally Posted by black_eclipse96

Just a quick update for mine. Everything checked out okay on the bottom end.

Any clue what the sound is??

[black_eclipse96]

Mine definitely sounds like its coming from the timing side or behind the right side of the motor. Which led me to believe it was the stubby shaft. Other than that im clueless. I hope somebody has some info here.

[bryanwheat]

Originally Posted by dsm-junkie

Any clue what the sound is??

Did you ever pull your oil pan and check out the bearings?

[bigbird94]

dsm-junkie it sounds like a light rod knock to me. You should contact your machine shop right now and tell them the situation. Until then I would not drive it. I would pull the rod caps out and make sure the bearings, rods, and crank look okay.

The idle issues could be the result of your base idle not being set properly, a vacuum leak, or maybe even a bad ISC motor.. If you want some links on diagnosing these issues I can provide you with the common ones off of vfaq and this site. But like I said before I wouldn't be driving it until you talk to the shop.

[dsm-junkie]

Originally Posted by bryanwheat

Did you ever pull your oil pan and check out the bearings?

I did check number 3 and 4 rod bearings and they seemed fine! I couldnt get one and 1 and 2 rod caps off!! I also did not get to check any of the mains!

Originally Posted by bigbird94

dsm-junkie it sounds like a light rod knock to me. You should contact your machine shop right now and tell them the situation. Until then I would not drive it. I would pull the rod caps out and make sure the bearings, rods, and crank look okay.

The idle issues could be the result of your base idle not being set properly, a vacuum leak, or maybe even a bad ISC motor.. If you want some links on diagnosing these issues I can provide you with the common ones off of vfaq and this site. But like I said before I wouldn't be driving it until you talk to the shop.

I think I might have a bad ISC motor adjusting the biss screw and in dsmlink the value does not fall lower than 60. I think its supposed to be at 30 if I'm correct! The only thing that makes me think its not rods is that after swapping the lifters the sound disappeared then returned! Theres evidence of that in the last video I posted!!! The sound also only comes between 2-3k RPMS no sound before or after???

[95'RS-T]

You didn't use a cheap eBay bse kit did you? I did and luckily I caught it before it got really bad. The stub shaft was scored as was the oil pump housing it sits in. They are made of aluminum. In your pic it looks like you have the front case off. If you do have a eBay kit check out the shaft.
Also you should really try to get them caps off and check them bearings.

[black_eclipse96]

Any update? im gonna dig more into the motor this weekend and hopefully find the cause!

[black_eclipse96]

okay finally got to checking the rod bearings and they are showing sever wear. Bearings did not spin ,but show gouging. Also some bearings fit loose in the rod bearing cap.

None of them had any abnormal movement, so im not sure if that was the ticking sound.

[c2ypt1c]

Originally Posted by black_eclipse96

okay finally got to checking the rod bearings and they are showing sever wear.

Did you plastigauge the rod bearings?

Originally Posted by 95'RST

You didn't use a cheap eBay bse kit did you?

^this?

[g4ebguy90]

Originally Posted by black_eclipse96

okay finally got to checking the rod bearings and they are showing sever wear. Bearings did not spin ,but show gouging. Also some bearings fit loose in the rod bearing cap.

None of them had any abnormal movement, so im not sure if that was the ticking sound.

The bearings should not fit loose in the rod cap at all. Should only be able to be removed with slight force from your thumbs.

[black_eclipse96]

Yes i did plastigauge mains and rods. They both came out to be. 003. They didnt fit loose when i installed them.

I also checked the mains. They came out to be in great shape. Well besides a couple marks hear and there from bearing material.

I took the bearing cap with the bearing to my machine shop and told me that it must have seen alot of heat to shrink the bearing like that. These were with acl tri metal bearings.. even some of the bearing backing has rubbed and you can see copper.

Any info on this will be greatly appreciated!

[bryanwheat]

Originally Posted by black_eclipse96

Yes i did plastigauge mains and rods. They both came out to be. 003. They didnt fit loose when i installed them.

I also checked the mains. They came out to be in great shape. Well besides a couple marks hear and there from bearing material.

I took the bearing cap with the bearing to my machine shop and told me that it must have seen alot of heat to shrink the bearing like that. These were with acl tri metal bearings.. even some of the bearing backing has rubbed and you can see copper.

Any info on this will be greatly appreciated!

If the back of the bearing is worn than the bearing has been spun.

[iugrad92turbo]

Looks like you had something go wrong, i would check, and recheck next time. Was everything clean?

[black_eclipse96]

If i recall it was just the bottom bearing (rod cap) that was like that. Everythimg looked to be clean.

[turboglenn]

you may have deformed the rod caps by overtightening, i know torque on my eagles with arp bolts is only 40 lb/ft, i think stock is less. ACl tri metal are usually the tightest fit bearing there is when checking clearances with several sets, mine all came out to .0025, and according to my machnist .003 is loose for what these engines need to llive properly on the street with the way we treat them...what oil were you using? My machinist also won't cover anything on my engine unless i run 10-30, nothing thicker because he said it's too hard to get picked up and lubrcating the engine on cold starts and some other things... but i have to also ask did you prime the oiling system and use assembly lube when building it?

there's no other ways about it, if those bearings went bad that fast there's a really large issue lurking in there that just a bearing replacement isn't gonna solve..the shavings in the ics aqbove are WAY too big to be "normal" what people consider normal are light traces of sparkley specs in the first oil change or two, those look like something came apart that shouldn' have.

at this point there's probably metal in the cranks oiling holes that will come out and eat any new bearings put in from this point so i'd have the entire rotating assemble dropped out, flush the block, have machinist check crank, rods, and everything else, I am a machinist by trade now (hobby my whole life) but not an engine machnist as i don't have large enough machies or fine enough measuring tools, its a complete different world between machining or being a mechanic compared to being an engine builder...even when i assemble my own my machinist labels each rod, bearing and piston as to where they go and to what journal each bearing goes in as they are all precisely fit to each other, even the wrist pin to rod small ends are custm fit in a proper build... So although i build the assmebly, he has basically built it himself just not assembled it when i get it and go from there on my own..

there's no roon for error and no room to assume things will go right because it's an "OEM rebuild" i've been the victim and witness to others in these same situations too many times to chance it unless i'm just re-ringing and putting new bearings in an engine that had no problems to start with and i just wanted to freshen it up (and even then i check everything with my measuring tools and plasti-gauge) Also, i file fit EVERY ring in any engine, the tool isnt much money and you can even do it with a fine file in a vice,

best of luck and let us know how it goes

Glenn