2G: should i 4g64/4g63 or just 4g63?

[mchustle]

ok i rebuilt my motor with the stock stuff that came with the car but now that its doing good for now i wanted to start building a motor on the side with my free time/cash. Obviously since I have a dsm it will take a little time to finish lol, but i want the forums opinion. I can get a 4g64 complete motor ,pulled from a 2gb spyder for a 6 bolt swap, for very cheap probably around $100 and it was running when pulled and i can always find a 63 head for cheap. So would you get the 4g64 and take it down to build it up or just find a 4g63? If so what do you all recommend parts wise? Thanks for any input im personally leaning towards the 63/64 combo, but will consider all advice.

[ed1380]

put the 4g64 crank in the 4g63 with stroker pistons for a grand total of 2.3l and no need to worry about 4g64 swap

[mchustle]

ok i just didnt know if i should go ahead and do the 4g64 since i could get it so cheap ,but i guess i could get it anyway and use the crank and sel some parts off of it.thanks for the input.

Anyone else have any input?

[delta448]

I'm a big fan of the 4G64 block, it's no secret. I think the additional deck height and the associated possible longer con rod options make it pretty attractive.

I'm not sure I get what ed1380 said about not needing to worry about the swap, since the 64 block will accept all the 2G 7 bolt 63 bits and bolts up pretty much the same, aside from a single trans bolt and a smidgen less hood clearance. If you're going to stick with a 2.0, you'll probably still be pulling it to upgrade the internals sometime down the road. *edited -saw 6 bolt bottom end in your profile*

I'd jump on it. But that's just me.

Would this be going in the GST in your profile? If so, you may want to weigh your options and consider the cost of drivetrain (hint LSD or AWD) upgrades to handle the added torque from the larger engine.

[mitsubishikid]

the 4g64/G4CS motors rock man, I put a sohc one in a dodge colt vista
[the vista had a sohc 4g63 before the swap].it runs great that added torque is something you can feel, EVEN WITH A SOHC HEAD ,and I am not kidding.

If you got the money a 4g64/G4CS block is a great setup,
BUT I WOULD RECOMEND USING A 6 BOLT VERSION.

I'd recomend it ,if you are bored with the 4g63T no offense ment to
the 4g63T, I love both 4G63T, AND G4CS/4G64 motors.

[Jmonet1620]

4g64 FTW!!!! I love mine. It has sooooo much more low end torque it's not even funny. With my tiny little 16g and my 2.4 it almost feels like my car is supercharged since boost hits instantly in any gear. I'm at full boost (23) by 3000 rpm's. Can't wait to get the hx35 put on and feel the power that gives me.

BTW my 4g64 was a 100% bolt on affair. Nothing custom was required at all. No welding, no drilling, no cutting nothing. I just took everything off of my 2.0 and swapped it to my 2.4.

[mchustle]

Originally Posted by delta448

I'm a big fan of the 4G64 block, it's no secret. I think the additional deck height and the associated possible longer con rod options make it pretty attractive.

I'm not sure I get what ed1380 said about not needing to worry about the swap, since the 64 block will accept all the 2G 7 bolt 63 bits and bolts up pretty much the same, aside from a single trans bolt and a smidgen less hood clearance. If you're going to stick with a 2.0, you'll probably still be pulling it to upgrade the internals sometime down the road. *edited -saw 6 bolt bottom end in your profile*

I'd jump on it. But that's just me.

Would this be going in the GST in your profile? If so, you may want to weigh your options and consider the cost of drivetrain (hint LSD or AWD) upgrades to handle the added torque from the larger engine.

Thanks for all the info. I just think it would be a fun project in my spare time, as for the drivetrain I'm still searching for a close by totaled awd that I can get a good deal on and do the swap into my gst. But I will have plenty of time to look while I'm building this motor on the side since I want to do it right and try not to skimp on the cost. needless to say it will probably take atleast 6-8 months before I have a engine ready to drop in, but I have my 4g63 in there now to hold me over.

And I can't really multi quote on my iPhone but thank you all for the info also, every bit helps. I'm just glad I got some people in here that think it's 4g63 or nothing, I love it but it's nice to have options.

Side note I just got my evo 9 injectors and pump and was wondering if anyone knew where I could get a tuned chip burnt to hold me over until I can get link. Thanks

[delta448]

I don't really know of anyone who burns chips anymore as a business. If you already have a socketed eprom, you might try the DSM ECU group on yahoo.

I haven't been keeping up with the messages there for a couple years, but I'm sure if you joined and posted asking for help, that for the right price you could surely find someone there with the right equipment who will burn you a chip for your Evo injectors.

You could also place a WTB ad in the classifieds here, some of our more veteran ECU specialists may be able to do this for you. I always wanted to try an Ostrich myself, especially since it can be used to tune more than just eprom Mitsubishi ECUs.

[mchustle]

Originally Posted by delta448

I don't really know of anyone who burns chips anymore as a business. If you already have a socketed eprom, you might try the DSM ECU group on yahoo.

I haven't been keeping up with the messages there for a couple years, but I'm sure if you joined and posted asking for help, that for the right price you could surely find someone there with the right equipment who will burn you a chip for your Evo injectors.

You could also place a WTB ad in the classifieds here, some of our more veteran ECU specialists may be able to do this for you. I always wanted to try an Ostrich myself, especially since it can be used to tune more than just eprom Mitsubishi ECUs.

Ok thank for the info I'll check out that link and post a wtb. I just don't want to let my injectors sit in the garage until I get link. I was also looking into ostrich, but im a complete noob at tuning and know pretty much nothing about it and from what I've read link is a little more noob friendly.

[delta448]

I got this PM from a member, and if it's alright with the OP, I'd like to answer it here so that others can see what I write and can offer their unique opinions or experiences. I will be the first to admit I don't know everything.

Hey man,

I hate to bother you, but I was reading in a thread where you are a huge fan of the 4g64 and just thought I would get whatever info you have to offer and your opinion on a few things. My first question is, what helpful info do you have for building the 2.4 4g64? Secondly, go with the 6 bolt 4g64 (G4CS, right?) or the 7 bolt? Also, how are the stock cranks? Any info would be appreciated.

Helpful info for building, well I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for there, but here's a few tidbits that I feel are the most significant:

• If we're talking about a 2G using a 4G64, all the 4G63 parts should bolt up to the 64 block.
• The timing belt and cover are different, use ones for a 94 Galant GS (DOHC 2.4). The 63 belt can be forced to work if you grind down the tensioner pulley arm where it contacts the pin of the tensioner.
• Make sure the block is the narrow block version. I can't remember the exact measurement off the top of my head, but the two lower bellhousing bolts should be a little less than 12" center to center for a narrow-block and slightly more if it's a wide-block.
• Degree the cams unless you have cam gears from the above mentioned model.
• Depending on the block, there will likely be oil drainback bores in the top of the block which will not be completely covered by the 4G63 head, those will need blocked off or possibly reworked.
• The 4G64 blocks do not have oil squirters. They can be drilled and tapped for the better 1G or Evo style squirters without much difficulty, if you want them. My opinion is that an external oil cooler might be a better investment.

As far as the G4CS vs 7 bolt 4G64, it's really your call and depends on how paranoid you are. Personally, if you can source a 99+ 4G64 block, I'd choose that first for two reasons: first, the split thrust bearing design that virtually eliminated crankwalk concerns on the later blocks and second, for the stronger 1 piece main girdle that the 6 bolts don't have.

As far as the crank strength goes, I think there are very few who will ever break a stock 2.4 crank from too much power. The stock 100mm crank has been proven to hold up to the abuse of well over 800awhp even in "butcher" form. I think balance problems, undampened harmonics and inadequate oiling play into the durability concerns waaaayy more than the power level that these cranks can withstand.

[mchustle]

Originally Posted by delta448

I got this PM from a member, and if it's alright with the OP, I'd like to answer it here so that others can see what I write and can offer their unique opinions or experiences. I will be the first to admit I don't know everything.



Helpful info for building, well I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for there, but here's a few tidbits that I feel are the most significant:

• If we're talking about a 2G using a 4G64, all the 4G63 parts should bolt up to the 64 block.
• The timing belt and cover are different, use ones for a 94 Galant GS (DOHC 2.4). The 63 belt can be forced to work if you grind down the tensioner pulley arm where it contacts the pin of the tensioner.
• Make sure the block is the narrow block version. I can't remember the exact measurement off the top of my head, but the two lower bellhousing bolts should be a little less than 12" center to center for a narrow-block and slightly more if it's a wide-block.
• Degree the cams unless you have cam gears from the above mentioned model.
• Depending on the block, there will likely be oil drainback bores in the top of the block which will not be completely covered by the 4G63 head, those will need blocked off or possibly reworked.
• The 4G64 blocks do not have oil squirters. They can be drilled and tapped for the better 1G or Evo style squirters without much difficulty, if you want them. My opinion is that an external oil cooler might be a better investment.

As far as the G4CS vs 7 bolt 4G64, it's really your call and depends on how paranoid you are. Personally, if you can source a 99+ 4G64 block, I'd choose that first for two reasons: first, the split thrust bearing design that virtually eliminated crankwalk concerns on the later blocks and second, for the stronger 1 piece main girdle that the 6 bolts don't have.

As far as the crank strength goes, I think there are very few who will ever break a stock 2.4 crank from too much power. The stock 100mm crank has been proven to hold up to the abuse of well over 800awhp even in "butcher" form. I think balance problems, undampened harmonics and inadequate oiling play into the durability concerns waaaayy more than the power level that these cranks can withstand.

Wow thanks for the info. I think I'm going to go 64 I'm gonna go ahead and get the motor from my buddy and rip it apart and take the block to the machine shop for hot tank, and to get everything else checked out and to fill those oil holes. Couple more questions if you don't mind lol. First any advice on piston and/or rods?
I'm not looking to make 1000hp but would like some power lol. Not sure what turbo setup I'm going with right now, but when its first done it will be running 93 pump gas and eventually probably e85 later down the road.

[dj-t]

Question about the piston and rods also. Can you reuse the factory 64 piston and rods? If so, how much can the factory 64 bottom end handle? Or is it a must to go aftermarket rod and piston on a 64?

[delta448]

The 7 bolt 4G64 uses the exact same rods as the 7 bolt 4G63, I can't say about the G4CS, although I'd be surprised if they were any different than stock 6 bolt rods.

With that said, the 7 bolt rods are a definite weak link. They tend to bend or snap at just a little more than 400awhp.

The stock 4G64 pistons aren't designed for boost. Although they are a boderline pump gas and boost friendly 9.0:1 CR, they have the top compression ring too close to the crown to withstand much abuse and the ring end gaps are set too tight for boost. You might get away with 8-10psi or so, but why push your luck when you will be upgrading rods anyways?

My recommendation for internals would depend on budget and power goals. I do recommend that if at all possible, you try to use stroker style shorter compression height pistons and longer 156mm connecting rods to broaden the safe rpm range and be able to really push a medium sized turbo to its limit.

[arrowhead]

Keep the details and ideas flowing as I am also interested in outcome


thanks

arrowhead

[Alex7747]

okay you confused me, i always thought the 4g64 had different piston totally? i thought the 4g64 had an 86.5mm bore and the 4g63 had an 85mm bored?? if thats true how could you just swap the pistons? if you did the 4g64 swap wouldn't you need to get at least 86.5mm bore pistons? imo to go 4g64, you would need forged pistons and forged rods. or can you use the stock 4g63t pistons?

Originally Posted by delta448

I got this PM from a member, and if it's alright with the OP, I'd like to answer it here so that others can see what I write and can offer their unique opinions or experiences. I will be the first to admit I don't know everything.



Helpful info for building, well I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for there, but here's a few tidbits that I feel are the most significant:

• If we're talking about a 2G using a 4G64, all the 4G63 parts should bolt up to the 64 block.
  

this is confusing lol

okay so i was reading a little and i know you can use the rods from the 4g63t in a 4g64 but you cannot use the stock pistons. you would have to get aftermarket pistons no matter what.. do they make .040 over or .060 over stock bore(4g63t)? or would going forged be a must? because if someone wanted to go 2.4 for that that much power, lets say 400hp, and they didn't want to get forged pistons. could they still use the 4g64 with some 2g pistons?

[delta448]

Alex, you're right on the stock bore sizes.
AFAIK, there aren't any OEM replacement cast 63 pistons offered in the stock (or larger) bore size for a 64. Going to forged pistons and rods is assumed when you build one. Stock 64 pistons aren't made for boost, and 63 specific pistons are too small.

There are a few manufacturers making forged hybrid 64block/63head pistons, but Magnus is the only vendor I know of that is stocking a shorter compression height 64 piston, so to use the longer rods would mean either a custom order piston or shelling out for the sweet Magnus slugs. The designs already do exist, but the demand isn't enough yet for most vendors to catalog them, especially when customers want different alloys, different dish volumes, etc. for their engine.

What in particular about the quoted post confused you? The part about the 63 bits bolting on? -I just meant the front case, OFH, water pump, water pipe, AC compressor bracket, starter and knock sensor.

[Alex7747]

Originally Posted by delta448

Alex, you're right on the stock bore sizes.
AFAIK, there aren't any OEM replacement cast 63 pistons offered in the stock (or larger) bore size for a 64. Going to forged pistons and rods is assumed when you build one. Stock 64 pistons aren't made for boost, and 63 specific pistons are too small.

There are a few manufacturers making forged hybrid 64block/63head pistons, but Magnus is the only vendor I know of that is stocking a shorter compression height 64 piston, so to use the longer rods would mean either a custom order piston or shelling out for the sweet Magnus slugs. The designs already do exist, but the demand isn't enough yet for most vendors to catalog them, especially when customers want different alloys, different dish volumes, etc. for their engine.

What in particular about the quoted post confused you? The part about the 63 bits bolting on? -I just meant the front case, OFH, water pump, water pipe, AC compressor bracket, starter and knock sensor.

yeah after a little i realized you meant the other stuff like the water pump ect. at first i thought you meant the actually internals. my bad sorry for the misunderstanding.

oh yeah i wanted to ask you zack. after i read this thread i found that rock auto sells the stock 63t pistons in .040 overbore. would those work in a 2.4 build? if i bore the 64 block out to the right size of course. I'm trying to stay away from forged because this will be a street car more then anything.

[m_0ney_pit]

Originally Posted by delta448

The 7 bolt 4G64 uses the exact same rods as the 7 bolt 4G63, I can't say about the G4CS, although I'd be surprised if they were any different than stock 6 bolt rods.

With that said, the 7 bolt rods are a definite weak link. They tend to bend or snap at just a little more than 400awhp.

The stock 4G64 pistons aren't designed for boost. Although they are a boderline pump gas and boost friendly 9.0:1 CR, they have the top compression ring too close to the crown to withstand much abuse and the ring end gaps are set too tight for boost. You might get away with 8-10psi or so, but why push your luck when you will be upgrading rods anyways?

My recommendation for internals would depend on budget and power goals. I do recommend that if at all possible, you try to use stroker style shorter compression height pistons and longer 156mm connecting rods to broaden the safe rpm range and be able to really push a medium sized turbo to its limit.

The g4cs has rods that look like 6 bolt rods but they are made by Hyundai, same with the pistons...pistons actually look pretty beefy.

There is a 6 bolt 4g64 narrowblock and mitsu only made it 1 year in the 92 expo, its super rare but you may be able to find one. It shares all the main bearing part numbers with the 6 bolt 4g63 All the other stuff from there out is 7 bolt 4g64,wideblock 4g64,g64b and g4cs.

[delta448]

Originally Posted by Alex7747

oh yeah i wanted to ask you zack. after i read this thread i found that rock auto sells the stock 63t pistons in .040 overbore. would those work in a 2.4 build? if i bore the 64 block out to the right size of course. I'm trying to stay away from forged because this will be a street car more then anything.

Not going to work. From 85mm to 86.5mm is an 0.060" overbore, and that's without honing the 64's cylinders. Every 0.5mm is 0.020".

Why do you need a cast piston for a street car?

[m_0ney_pit]

if you want stock you can always go evo x. dsm graveyard was trying this out but they have not reported any results yet positive or negative. Problem is you can't go over bore with these pistons because the largest evo x over bore=stock 4g64 bore.

[mitsubishikid]

My recommendation for internals would depend on budget and power goals. I do recommend that if at all possible, you try to use stroker style shorter compression height pistons and longer 156mm connecting rods to broaden the safe rpm range and be able to really push a medium sized turbo to its limit.[/QUOTE]

Not meaning to change the subject, but I thought I would mention this.

also if you use a 2.0 crank and stroker pistons, with longer rods ,you could make a destroked 4g64/g4cs aka the 2.1 these setups have been known to rev well past 11,000 r.p.ms!!

[buhay6]

you serious??! never would have thought a 4g64 would rev that thigh, revs higher then my bike.

[mitsubishikid]

as long as you use the longer 162mm rods, and forged stroker pistons with a 2.0 liter crank.i am quite sure it would work,

quote: you serious??! never would have thought a 4g64 would rev that thigh, revs higher then my bike.

correction you would hit red line at around 11,000 rpm's, but still it's a pretty high rpm limit, some day this will be my motor setup, of course not in a DSM though i think something more along the lines of a rwd mitsu Starion drift machine. it would be cool to do sideways slides at around the 10k rpm mark.