Build ideas and Questions

[Rex2342]

I hope this belongs in here sorry if it does not. I'm looking to do a budget build on my Talon. My current list of mods/parts is in my profile. I have roughly $1500 to put an engine together and hopefully will get more cash together for the rest in the near future. I'm only looking for about 350 HP, 20-25 Lbs of boost, and maybe mid/low 12's. Since this is also my DD I'm not trying to go all out as I need it be reliable but want to beef it up a bit. I drive my car about 50 miles a day back and forth to work and to the track on weekends. I know the stock engine is more than capable of reaching my goals but with 195,*** miles on it I figured it's time for a build. I'm going to split this up a bit to hopefully make it easier for me to explain and make it easier for you to give suggestions. So here goes...

Short Block Plans:
2g pistons
1g Rods
ACL main/rod bearings???
ARP head and rod bolts
SBR Oil Pan
Stock crank

Cylinder Head Plans:
Stock springs
Titanium Retainers???
Stainless valves not sure which ones yet
Brass Guides
Stock cams and gears???

Turbo Setup Plans:
Externally gated Evo III 16g
O2 Mounted 38mm Tial wastegate with external dump tube
FP race manifold???


I also have a few problems I need input on. I have 3 6 bolt blocks, 2 N/T and one Turbo. I just found out the turbo block has a crack in the #3 cylinder wall and I can't use it. My other 2 N/T blocks are fine but without the oil squirters can I even run 2g pistons reliably?
I also have some questions about the turbo setup. Is the external gate setup overkill for my goals? Can I reach my goals with an internal 34mm gate, EVO3 O2 housing, and my 2g manifold?

I think that's about it for my questions for now. I'm hoping to use a majority of my current aftermarket parts to reach my goals. My intercooler should be sufficient as well as my current fuel setup but if not let me know. I'm a little worried about tuning it all with a MAFT and SAFC though. I work in a garage so I have access to just about any tool you could imagine and I have a few friends in the machine shop as well so I'm getting nice deals on the machine work. Hopefully this build will turn out the way I want it to but I wanted to see if my ideas were going to work out.

 

[BogusSVO]

ok, heres what I can fill you in on....

Short Block Plans:
2g pistons <---- forged or stock?
1g Rods <---- stock or aftermarket H-beam
ACL main/rod bearings???
ARP head and rod bolts <--- 1g block with 2g head?
SBR Oil Pan
Stock crank

Get the rotating assembly balanced.


Cylinder Head Plans:
Stock springs <---- good chance they are wore out, get some new ones.
Titanium Retainers??? <---- not really needed, the cash can be spent in another place
Stainless valves not sure which ones yet<---- I have installed alot of the Engbldr ones, if buying new valves, get the +1mm
Brass Guides <-- I am getting new info about these, so I am not sure how to point you at this time.
Stock cams and gears???<--- stock cams, ok.... take the cash from the Ti retainers and get some adjustable gears.

What HG? MLS? or a composite?


Read through this beacuse you will need some machine work.

it was written by DSMT wise man Big Woo

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/303225-engine-machine-work-explained.html

 

[TSIfreek]

You are far better off getting aftermarket forged rods as I personally dont like taking the chance of having one of the rod cap nuts coming loose if they were not reconditioned properly. You can get a nice set of eagle, scat or manley rods for under 300.
The head you should not have to spend more than 400 on getting it all freshend.

 

[Rex2342]

Thanks for the responses! I was planning to just do the stock 2g pistons and stock 1g rods setup because I have good set of rods already and the pistons are cheap. Since my turbo block is screwed I've had to adjust my plans a bit. All I have to work with now is a non turbo 6 bolt block and I don't want to use the stock style pistons without the oil squirters. I'm going to see about getting the squirters machined in or just go forged and be done with it. I'm really trying not to overbuild the engine since my HP goals and cash flow are relatively low. If the cost of machining the squirters in is too much I'm thinking about just going with Ross pistons, Eagle rods, and maybe save more money for the head. After the machining of the rods to fit the pistons, and now the squirters plus all the additional machining costs I might as well just go forged.
As far as the gaskets go I'm getting the topline kit and a Cometic MLS head gasket. I'm well aware of all the machining procedures that will need to be done. I already planned on getting the rotating assembly balanced and I'm going to get the block align honed too. Like I said in my first post I've got a few friends at the machine shop so they are hooking me up real nice on the side. It only cost me $40 for them to hot tank the block, rods, head, and a few other small parts I had plus they magna fluxed the rods and block for me. That"s when they found the cracked cylinder wall.

If I do go forged what size turbo should I go with? A built motor would be kind of a waste on a 16g. Remember I'm trying to keep it reliable and streetable too.

 

[BogusSVO]

what equipment do your friends in the machine shop use?
If they belt sand head, and use a srone set grinding set up, you should think about taking the head to a diffrent shop.

My Best bud uses the NA blocks all the time with no issues and no oil squriters

 

[TSIfreek]

Using forged internals is just good insurance no matter what turbo you use.
Your short block is like a foundation for a housing being built. If the foundation is not strong it doesnt matter what the house is made out of as it will just sink into the ground.
I ran a forged ross motor on a 16g for 4 years. Its all about clearances.

 

[Rex2342]

Okay so forged internals it is. As far as the equipment they use I'm not 100% sure what it is. They've done heads my me in the past and do all our machining for my work too so I'm not to worried about them. So now that the bottom end is settled what about the turbo and head setup? I'm still kinda thinking the E316g setup I talked about earlier. My question though is should I just do the 34mm flapper upgrade or go with the o2 mounted external wastegate and would using an open dump tube benefit or hurt me at all?

 

[BogusSVO]

Okay so forged internals it is. As far as the equipment they use I'm not 100% sure what it is. They've done heads my me in the past and do all our machining for my work too so I'm not to worried about them. So now that the bottom end is settled what about the turbo and head setup? I'm still kinda thinking the E316g setup I talked about earlier. My question though is should I just do the 34mm flapper upgrade or go with the o2 mounted external wastegate and would using an open dump tube benefit or hurt me at all?

I would be if you want a good build up, there is a diffrence between a stock head rebuild, and one your looking to make power with.

You should see the headache I have right now, Due to another shop messing a head up, and not doing it right, yes the head would have been fine for stock, but not something that is going to be hammered on.

Ask about the equipment....

friends or not, if they do not have the equipment to do the job that you need, then you need another shop

 

[Rex2342]

I'll ask them what type of equipment they use in the morning. I have to stop there anyway. I know they do a lot of muscle car engines and I've had them do my Neon head when I still had it. My buddy Jimmy who will be doing most of the work has a 9 second pump gas charger he built.

YouTube - Jim Pranis's '68 Charger 8.99 Quarter Mile
YouTube - 2007 Mopar Nats

 

[BogusSVO]

big diffrence between domestic cast iron head work and alum import heads....

 

[Rex2342]

big diffrence between domestic cast iron head work and alum import heads....

His heads are aluminum but I know what you're trying to say. The point is that my machinist knows what he is doing and I'm not at all worried about his work. He has plenty of experience with 4g63 engines and has built a few similar to mine for other friends in the past...

 

[TSIfreek]

His heads are aluminum but I know what you're trying to say. The point is that my machinist knows what he is doing and I'm not at all worried about his work. He has plenty of experience with 4g63 engines and has built a few similar to mine for other friends in the past...

Then go with him. Finding a good machineist is all about trust.

 

[Rex2342]

I'm going to drop off my N/T block in the morning and I have a few more questions concerning the bottom end before I order anything. After doing a lot more reading today I'm going to go with the Wiseco/Eagle combo need suggestions on compression ratio. 8.3:1 or 9:1? Also what should I have them set the piston to wall clearance and ring gaps to for 20-25psi? I've read anything from .002 to .006 PTW with everything in between and nobody seems consistent. I know Wiseco suggests a PTW of .003 should I just go with that and follow there suggestions for ring gap? My N/T block was already checked out a few months ago and has a good stock bore that just needs honed.

 

[BogusSVO]

if your using wiseco piston/ring set up, follow there recomendations, I normally add about .003-.005 to the ring gap and live with a bit of blow by

 

[TSIfreek]

Most guys run .0038 .004 piston to wall clearance on wiescos

 

[Rex2342]

Ok so once I get the piston I'll just have to check out the spec sheet and go from there then. i dropped off the N/T block this morning and he's supposed to call me tomorrow with the bore sizes and bearing sizes so i can order everything. I did ask them about the machine they use to resurface the heads like BogusSVO said too. I don't remember exactly what he called the machine as it was 12 hours ago now but it was a big disc with several cutting bits attached to it. He asked me what type of head gasket i was going to be using. When i told him an MLS gasket he said he needed to know an RA number that was suggested for this type of gasket before he decked the block? I figured I'd ask here because I wasn't sure what he meant. Anybody know?

 

[BogusSVO]

The common ways to surface a head, have changed with how and what engines are built out of
In the day of Cast Iron Heads and cast iron blocks, table stone surfacers were used, think of something about the size of a large end table, with a 14 inch stone spinning in the center of it, the machinist would grab the head and hold it, working the head in a circular motion agaist rotation of the stone. till it was flat? not a very good way of surfacing a head. I have still seen this style of surfacer in use in shops to this day.

Next is the "master head surfacer" some are wet, others are Dry, very common in shops, they are cheap to buy and quick to use. Its nothing more than a big belt sander. Thease machines are not at all accurate, the head is flat, but not square or level, they tend to grind more off the leading edge of the head. On this machine the machinist holds the head and works it across the belt, assuming he has a clue of how that machine cuts. Most do not.

Rotory Broach is another common machine, found as single speed or dual speed, the head is held ridged in a hold down fixture, then a wheel with 10 carbide inserts pass under the head. its a decent machine, but the finish depends alot in how well indexed the carbide inserts are to one another, .001 makes a big diffrence, it can take hours to set the blades up. Works great on cast iron heads, and some alum, BUT it depends on what kind of Alum the head is made of.

Another machine is the surface grinder, not a bad machine, it keeps the head leveled and indexed, it uses segmented stones. The surface finish is not smooth enough most of the time for MLS gaskets, The finish is dependent on what stones, how well dressed they are, spindle speed and table speed. Still very common in shops

The new boy on the block is a High speed Milling machine, these use a .500 (1/2) inch insert, CBN for cast Iron and CBN for alum. for the most part, as far I as know, have been around about 10 years. smaller shops are slow on getting them due to there cost, But without a doubt give the best surface finish. Some machines, Like the comec I use, have variable rate spindle speed and variable rate table feed rates. This will alow for diffrent surface finishes for diffrent gaskets

sounds like a rotory broach to me, I doubt it will give you the Ra that you need for a MLS, you need 40-50ram thats about glass smooth.

 

[BogusSVO]

sorry dubble post......

 

[Rex2342]

Well thank you for all your insight. I'll ask him on Monday if his equipment can get it that smooth and if not I can just take the head somewhere else to get it shaved. I have at least 3 other shops in the area that I know of and one of which I know for a fact builds high end heads so maybe they have the high speed milling machine you're talking about.

 

[tim4g63fast]

2g piston 1g rod combo is a joke every time ive seen it.

guys spend a couple hundred on pistons, then spend 150 on machine work or more. At least everytime I have seen it done. At the point they finally have the pistons and rods machined they could have bought a set of forged pistons.

 

[BogusSVO]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...face-4g63t-cylinder-head-mls-head-gasket.html

the surface needs to look like this

 

[Rex2342]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/new...face-4g63t-cylinder-head-mls-head-gasket.html

the surface needs to look like this

Yeah I read that post last night before I posted my questions here. Very nice!

 

[BogusSVO]

Yeah I read that post last night before I posted my questions here. Very nice!

heres a vid too.... it shows the belt sand the the milling
YouTube - Resurfacing an Aluminum Cylinder Head